What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

I dont mean to come back on this thread again.. but for heaven's sake bao bihari.. come on buddy!!! the answer has been given to you. Here's the answer one more time.

Whats a kafir ? a kafir is not a derogatory term that is used to disrespect anyone. It is a term for people who simply deny. Period.

Do we forcefully call you kafir or because you choose to be a kafir yourself? you decide.
Then, think about what other Muslims will be when Jesus a.s do return according to your belief.
Think about kufr Muslims commit by not praying ( a hadith saying one who does not pray commits kufr )

As a Muslim, we are obligated to believe in all prophets of Allah. Look at it from Ahmadi's POV for a minute ok? We call Hz Mirza Ghulam Ahmad(as) to be the same Messiah and Mahdi whose advent was foretold by Holy Prophet PBUH. Now, since we consider him to be a prophet, and you dont, from our side, you are committing kufr. However, just the kufr of not believing in the person sent by Allah. Now, even after committing that kufr, you can still be a Muslim, just like how the label of Muslim stays with the person even if he does not pray.

Kindly think with a clear mind, and understand that being a kafir is something you choose for yourself. It is not implied on you. Unlike mainstream Muslims who not only call Ahmadis non muslims, but rather demand Ahmadis to 'act' like non muslims too.

I hope this is clear and hopefully this thread dont go beyond this page.

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

My dear friend Popat

For Muslims there are six essential beliefs in Islam. Belief in six things: Allah, Angels of Allah, Books of Allah, Prophets of Allah, there is fate and whatever good or bad is from Allah, there is afterlife.

Denying any of the above renders one to out of pale of Islam – thus a kaffir.

The point of contention between Muslims and Ahmadis is the status of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani made many claims for himself and the main ones being that he is a prophet from Allah Almighty and the Promised mahdi.

All Muslims reject the claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and take him to be charlatan and a fraud. To all the Muslims this claim by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani takes him out of pale of Islam and all those who follow him are in the same boat (out of pale of Islam). This is due to their own actions.

Whereas, Ahmadis accept Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani to be rightful prophet & mahdi from Allah Almighty.

So logically to Ahmadis anyone who rejects claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani is out fold of Islam thus a kaffir.

Using the above principle Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad son and second successor of your prophet declared anyone who doesn’t believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani claims to be non-Muslim and out of pale of Islam.

He never used the following terms: Non-Ahmadi Muslims. Ghair Ahmadi Muslims for them.

At least he was true to his beliefs and didn’t mince his words.

Read again what he said:

"The article was elaborately entitled A Muslim is one who believes in all the messengers of God'. The title itself is sufficient to show that the article was not meant to prove merely thatthose who did not accept the Promised Messiah were deniers of the Promised Messiah'. Its object rather was to demonstrate that those who did not believe in the Promised Messiah were not Muslims." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 135-136)

"Regarding the main subject of my article, I wrote that as we believed the Promised Messiah to be one of the prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims." A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 137-138)

"not only are those deemed to be Kafirs who openly style the Promised Messiah as Kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim, but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiah to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai`at, have here been adjudged to be Kafirs."** A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 139 -140)
**
"And lastly, it was argued from a verse of the Holy Quran that such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiah as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues, were yet veritable Kafirs." A’inah-i Sadaqat (p. 140)

  • veritable Kafirs” are “pakkay kafir” in the original Urdu book

**Brother bao bihari **asked a question which is willfully being ignored

Now either the Ahmadi posters here are stating the truth that Ahmadis take Muslims who reject Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani as ‘Non-Ahmadi Muslims’ ‘Ghair Ahmadi Muslims’

Or Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad and Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan are liars and are misrepresenting Ahmadi stance towards those who reject claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani

Only if you guys had been as sincere as Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad and Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan about Ahmadi/Qadiani stance this thread would not have gone beyond page 1. You guys have been dragging this thread along with all the Verbal gymnastics & somersaults and doublespeak you could muster up.

Choice is yours. Own up to Messrs. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad's and Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan's statements or declare them to be misrepresenting Ahmadi/Qadiani position.

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Questions to maulana ibne saddiq,

1) What is the definition of a Muslim as per Islamic scriptures (not talking about opinions)?

2) Why Jews who accepted and rejected Isa (as) both are referred to as people of the book in the holy Quran? Why even after rejecting a true prophet of Allah, their apparent connection with Moses (as), Torah and their being their followers was not discarded?

As you are very knowlegeable and love to pull references. Pls answer the above questions before we move forward.

PS: These question are posed to ibne-saddiq alone so please no adult supervision.

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

I must add that the reasons all the Muslims reject claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani:

1) The Blessed Quran clearly states that the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is the LAST and FINAL Prophet of Allah Almighty sent to Mankind and the Jinn.

2) There are hundreds of authentic sayings of the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) that he is the LAST and FINAL Messenger from Allah Almighty.

3) The Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) had warned the Muslims that there will be 30 persons laying claim to prophet hood and all of them will be liars as their claims are against the Blessed Quran and the Blessed sayings of the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).

4) The claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani of being a mahdi are not in line with criteria set by the sayings of the Blessed Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).

5) The writings and foul language used by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and his character portrayed by his own writings and of his dear ones are not befitting a decent person let alone someone who is a messenger of Allah Almighty

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

\just incase some one starts blaming muslims of useless arguing, see post # 215, this is where it started again.

Kchughtai-

Brother Ibn sadique will answer the question you have asked, but is it not ethical to answer what he asked first rather then posting counter question to derail the thread again.

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

his question was answered many a times in different ways. He can answer in a new thread if he likes

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

[QUOTE]

For Muslims there are six essential beliefs in Islam. Belief in six things: Allah, Angels of Allah, Books of Allah, Prophets of Allah, there is fate and whatever good or bad is from Allah, there is afterlife.

Denying any of the above renders one to out of pale of Islam – thus a kaffir.

[/QUOTE]

Our belief in all the six essential stated beliefs is quite firm. We are not guilty of going against even a single one of them. but you guys might be guilty of rejecting a true Mahdi.

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Sorry for my ignorance, but can you answer it once again in clear words/or quote where it was replied in clear words, like we accept/reject ? plus Zafarullah sahib statement.

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Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

Regarding Zafarullah sahib statement on Jinnah’s funeral:

It is a mere concoction as usual. No such statement was issued by Zafarullah sahib especially on the eve of Jinnah’s funeral. If you want to talk about why he didn’t offer Jinnah’s funerla then watch this video:

Why Sir Muhammad Zafarullah Khan Not offered Funeral Prayer of Quaid-e-Azam - YouTube

btw why Maudodi, Ameer-e-shariat, prof. ghafoor etc. didn’t attend the funeral?
take a look at this clipping:

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Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

What about the main question? regarding the statement of mirza basheer.

So it is confirmed that zafarullah did not offered the funeral because of moulana shabbir usmani. ?

:offtopic:

One more thing which musawat clipping of same day is correct?

The one you posted or the one shown in video?

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

My dear brother Kchughtai

It is obvious to all that yet again for the umpteenth time you and your ‘jamaat friends’ are avoiding answering the simple questions posed to you and resorting to diversionary tactics to divert the thread to another direction

You are using a cheap dramatic debating trick–“When stumped for an answer just pose new questions to divert the debate in another direction”.

Sorry, I am not going to play your game.

You want to move forward? Hey, Wait you have yet to answer some questions posed to you?

You have yet to clear a great discrepancy between what Ahmadis/Qadianis posters are stating here and what their eminent leaders have stated –

Allow me to post the question yet again for the umpteenth time:

Brother Bao Bihari has repeatedly asked you about statement of Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan with regards to him not joining Funeral prayers of Mr. Jinnah. You have willfully ignored to respond.

Obviously we know why (and you know it too)

Following is the statement made by Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan when asked why he had not joined Funeral prayers held for Mr Jinnah when he was at the location (where funeral was taking place):

"You may take me to be the Musalman Minister of an infidel Government or the infidel employee of a Muslim Government".

Note: He made a clear cut distinction that either He was a Muslim and the rest where Infidels or he was an infidel and the rest were Muslims.

He had a different answer at Inquiry Tribunal

"Maulana Shabbir Ahmad Usmani, the leader of the funeral prayer, has declared that the Ahmadis are Kafirs and liable to be executed. So, I could not decide to join a prayer which was being conducted under the Imamat of the Maulana”

The Ahmadi/Qadiani posters have stated that they call mainstream Muslims as: Non-Ahmadi Muslims. Ghair Ahmadi Muslims ----- contrary to their eminent leader’s positions.

Whereas their eminent leaders have used the following words and phrases:

*‘not Muslims’

‘we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims’

‘not Muslims’

‘not only are those deemed to be Kafirs’

‘have here been adjudged to be Kafirs’

‘veritable Kafirs’ = ‘pakkay kafir’*

Kchughtai be brave and disown the statements of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad & Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan, if you don’t then your stance is just a smokescreen to fool the people.

Believe me this is getting boring now.

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Please answer the basic questions that I posed to you or the answers are not in your bag of references?

The problem is that you keep your eyes closed to the answers we gave and references we quote. You simply love to beat your own drum.

Please answer the basic questions in post #223

Also tell me (the question that was posed and never answered) what is objective of this exercise? what is the difference if Ahmadis consider you Muslim or not? what conclusion do you want to draw?

After you answer, I will try to answer to your satisfaction.

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

bao bihari and ibne saddiq,

As for Zafarullh Khan's alleged statement, I have told you that it is a mere concoction. try to watch the video I posted. He was there to offer the funeral prayer. He was with the crowd but stayed away from offering funeral prayer because of mukazib imam. The question is why was he there in the first place if he was not to offer the prayer. He could have stayed home like maudodi and other maulanas who consider Jinnah kafir-e-azam to avoid getting into a weird situation.

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Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

What is the difference between the two clippings. both seem to have same heading. explain the difference. Also why famous maulanas didn’t offer Jinnah’s funeral and why did they become thekedaar of this country of whose founder they consider kaafir and stood against tehreek-e-pakistan.

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Difference is visible brother, i am just asking which one is correct ( as the news format is different in two clippings)or just that musawat clipping is taken with alfazl news paper report? why is this that only one news paper reported this and none other took this news.

but this is a side issue and warrant another thread to see if this is correct or not, why i am asking is becuase ahmedis have history of misquoting things.

As for the video , i watched the complete video and brother bn saiddique in his post have also mentioned the same justification that mirza zafarullah gave.Point was that he did not offered the janaza, verbal somersaults are some thing ahmedis are expert in, so we will not go into that. (yesterday was watching one of the majlis e irfan on masla e jihad and he was best in twisting things. :)

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

Brother** kchughtai** – let’s not get ahead of ourselves

I (and others) have never shied away from answering your questions – I promise I’ll answer that question posed by you. I know where you are trying to lead this debate. We’ll get there too, worry not.

The topic of this thread is “What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?”

Trust me, I do read all that you (and others) write – Indeed you have given answers which you want us to hear well knowing that this is not according to stance of your elders. :)

The reason I love to beat my own drum is to wake you (and others) up to notice the glaring discrepancy in what you want us to hear and what your elders have stated?

By answers given by you (and others) You are still keep mainstream Muslims within the fold of Islam contrary to your elders who have declared non Ahmadis as kaffirs, non-Muslims and out of pale of Islam!

See for yourself yet again:

So who is speaking on behalf of your jamaat?

You and others over here?

OR should we trust Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad & Chaudhry Zafarullah Khan?

Who is trying to hoodwink us?

This is what you and others are not answering!

Let’s clear this and we move on.

The objective is to simply point out the glaring discrepancy between your answers and the statements made your eminent scholars!

It makes no difference at all if Ahmadis consider us Muslims or not but please don’t hoodwink us with wrong answers.

The only conclusion I can draw is that Ahmadis try to hoodwink others to the reality about themselves. Just as in some post in this thread I showed how Ahmadi leadership tried to hoodwink others and their own followers too that there were 200 million Ahmadis worldwide in 2004!!!:D

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Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

I’m sorry but this is way too funny to let go. Let’s enjoy this funny statement together

If the above scholars are not misquoting, then Mubarak ho aapko aapka Islam.

Jamaat e Ahmadiyya by the grace of Allah has a founder who was sent by Allah. Had it been from anyone beside Allah, it would have been destroyed long ago. It is the mere grace of Allah and continuous dua’s of Promised Messiah(as) for his followers that he once said and I quote:

Such powerful words, such glory in every single word of it.

Man na anistam ke roz e jang beeni pasht e mann
Aan mannam ka nadarmiyan khaak o khooN been e sarre

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Re: What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?

Mr. Popat – You think you have made a ‘smart move’ (by your reckoning) by trying to divert the direction of the debate?

Smart move? Certainly not. Over smart? Certainly yes.

Your diversionary ploy is not going to let you off the hook.

The topic of this thread is “What do Ahmedi’s call mainstream muslims?”

Respected brother bao bihari is absolutely right in the quotation above.

Ahmadis are known for twisting, misrepresenting, misquoting and distorting the meanings of verses of the blessed Quran, ahadith and sayings of the scholars to justify their creed.

The videos that you have posted are in line with what I have stated above.

Please open a new thread with what have posted here so we can tackle it and expose its intellectual-dishonesty and bankruptcy and cheap attempt to hoodwink the people. I dare you!

Now let us see IF you can respond to the following: This is in line with topic of the thread.

I might as well address the following:

Barkat pe barkat? See How shamelessly your leaders lie about Ahamdi population!

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

^^ your attitude has always been in an attacking mode. Why ? I don't think you're mature enough to have a reasonable debate with me, or maybe your intellectual level is not in line with mine. I am not boasting myself, but really, you need to learn the manners of debating, where you not only keep on beating around the bush, but rather also have the courage to listen to the other party.

Now, let me repeat it.

When did we say something other than what is written in the books you're quoting?

You are committing kufr. Did you not read it earlier when I said that ? Did you not read why I said why you're committing kufr? What's the matter with you?

Do you deny the fact that your own scholars give fatwa against shias, shias giving fatwas against sunnis, barelvis, deobandis, ahl e hadith, calling them all kafir in their books as well as openly in their majaalis ?? I ask you, what do you call Shias ??? I don't need to waste my time in telling you what we believe about you. Answer has been given many times, but you can go ahead and answer me what you call shias. This will answer your questions.

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Re: What do Ahmedi's call mainstream muslims?

My friend** Mr. Popat **– Believe me, I never start in attacking mode. We are here to debate with each other. At times I do get firm when others keep changing the goals posts or keep throwing in red herrings to divert the flow of the debate but check all my posts you will never find me getting personal or abusive. Never! That’s not my style.

Sarcastic remarks here and there are part and parcel of the debate.

I’ll grant you that your intellectual level is beyond my reach. I’ll leave it to the viewers to rate my maturity level with that of yours.

About your debating manners, sorry, yours is just an idle boast. To you I may be beating around the bush, to me you are a very slippery customer indeed.

With hard facts from your books and statements of your eminent elders staring you straight in the face you are still non-committal or in the denying mode.

Take this thread as an example.

You are non-committal on statements of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad, he takes non-Ahmadis as Pakkay Kaffirs. He is right. Denying a rightful prophet is major kufr and person is out of pale is Islam.

Since Muslims reject Mirza Ghulam Ahmad’s claim to prophet hood your stance should be in line that of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad. Yet you take them as non-Ahmadi Muslims!

You are betraying Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad’s stance and distancing yourself from it publicly just for public image.

You will notice that I always reply to all the posts in full – I split the posts and reply to each point raised and ignore nothing – that means I have the courage to listen and reply in full, maybe not to your liking – I can’t help that as I have to put my point of view forward.

This is a fact that all the materials quoted from our books is presented with a deliberate twist or a slant to mislead or misrepresent. Trust me on this. I am not saying that you personally are responsible for this. It is done on the higher scale.

What you state is true. Fatwas do fly around but you will see at Hajj time all are there together, each one performing the rituals in their own way. Despite all the disputes and haranguing the Ummah performs the Hajj as one body.

I never take shias as Kaffirs unless they make takfir on the Sahabah of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Hatred for Sahabah (may Allah Almighty be pleased with them all) of the Blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) doesn’t take one out of pale Islam. It proves their deviancy from the true path and will taken to task for that. Allah Almighty will judge them and deal them as He sees fit.

Believe me Mr. Popat it bothers me in the least what you believe about me.

I am aware what answer you have given.

Do you agree with Mr. Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad?

Do you disown his statements?

I have already told you my stance on Shias.

Mr. Popat I do take my religion very seriously for my own sake. I do read widely from all types of books, especially those written against Islam so that I can look for their objections and criticism and take these to those have knowledge to firm my faith. Alhamdililah.

I did read what you had written – You should know that I do respond to all the points raised by you. You do write a lot – and I have to take time out to reply. You must have noticed that I respond to all the points raised by you or others, Trust me I am a serious reader and love reading & collecting good books (I have inherited this trait from my dear Dad).

I am not committing Kufr. In this very post I have told you many a times that I take Mirza Ghulam Ahamd’s claims to be false. I reject all of his claims as you would reject the claims of Musaylimah the liar.

I don’t reject Mirza Ghulam Ahamd’s claims just for sake of it or for a grudge.

All the evidence of Quran and ahadith of the blessed Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) are against Mirza Ghulam Ahmad. Unfortunately you can’t see it.

That’s what I find very tragic. I wish you could take a step out and have a look into Ahmadiyyat. You will how tightly controlled cult it is.

Those who split up their Religion, and become (mere) Sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!** 30:32**

Say: O people! indeed there has come to you the truth from your Lord, therefore whoever goes aright, he goes aright only for the good of his own soul, and whoever goes astray, he goes astray only to the detriment of it, and I am not a custodian over you. 10:108

*May Allah Guide Us All To Truth and Keep Us On The Straight Path that earns His Pleasure and our Salvation *