I have a couple of questions for some people on here:
Several people have already answered your question in great detail regarding how Ahmedi’s view mainstream muslims yet you continue to claim that they are being disingenuous or dishonest and have not stated “what they really think.” If you’ve already made up of your mind and think you know better than them what they think of you, what is the point of continuing to ask the same question? Regardless of how they respond, the reply is always accusations of being insincere. What is it that you want them to say?
Please show us where is mirza basheer and other ahmedi statement that we quoted are answered.
Our point is that the opinion presented here may be a personal opinion of these posters but we are discussing ahmedi stance here and have presented mirza basheer statements in addition to mirza ghulam ahmed and some other statements which are not answered. As you know where the answer is in this thread can you please guide us?
Dear** Mr. Popat **Please don’t be unreasonable and paranoid, trust me no one ganging up on you.
Indeed it not easy to see ones mistakes if one is dogmatically stubborn.
All the references by me and brother bao bihari are genuine and for real. It’s just that the truth is too bitter for you to swallow.
Please re-read my post numbered 256 posted on 16th May 2014 – partially quoted below:
Mr. Popat I am sure you are speaking the truth when you say the references are not the pages mentioned, do want to know why?
Ahmadis/Qadianis are printing new versions of their books every few years thus are changing the layouts of their books so the references quoted from the older versions look out of place.
In some cases they are even fraudulently erasing the evidence themselves – to the extent of erasing Mr. Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani’s relevations!!!
There is a new game in town called Old Tadhkirah vs. the new version
In the old version of Tadhkirah (2004 edition) there was an ilham on page 346:
“God almighty has conveyed it to me that every person to whom my call is conveyed and who does not accept me is not a Muslim and is accountable to God for his default (Letter addressed to Dr. Abdul Hakeem)(April 1906).
Original Tadhkirah (Urdu Version) – The Ilham is mentioned between the dates 31-Mar-1906 and 3-Apr-1906
English Tadhkirah, Year 2006 - The Ilham is mentioned between the dates 31-Mar-1906 and 3-Apr-1906
English Tadhkirah, Year 2009 - The Ilham between the dates 31-Mar-1906 and 3-Apr-1906 has been DELETED!
Scanned copies given in the link below: Scroll down to post 4 - Note every time it is a different page! Now **Mr. Popat **you know what you are against!
The fraudsters have no Fear of Allah Almighty – in the first incidence they call the material a ilham from Allah Almighty and ditch it into dustbin as if it is worthless rubbish!
Mr. Popat please look for the older versions and you will find the references are correct. Please do confirm with us if you get the right references.
The fault lies in Ahmadiyyah jamaat!!! You can clearly see their mindset. Fraudsters and liars.
I am providing you with following link of book written by** Sahibzada Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmood Ahmad**, I think he is the first son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani.
Please scroll down to end of page 316 – not long to scroll down as the link starts from page 303
It clearly states that Allah Almighty has informed Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani in Revelation that those who reject him are not Muslims and are accountable to Allah Almighty!!!
This is from Allah Almighty to Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani!!!
Who is going to disregard this! Only those who know that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani is a false prophet and a fraud!
You are committing kufr. You cannot be called a Muslim if you reject a person sent by Allah. It is a duty of Muslim to accept the person sent by Allah. If you reject him, you r rejecting Allah.
Is that part clear enough?
Then you ask why we call you 'Muslim' ?
We call you Muslim because you call yourself Muslim. A brief definition of who is a Muslim is posted above by kchughtai by giving ahadith references.
You call Ahmadis kafir, and by the hadith of Holy Prophet PBUH which says if a Muslim calls another kafir than one of them is kafir. By that, you become kafir. However, we dont play name games. We leave it on Allah to judge. .
We are not rejecting a genuine prophet but a fraudster and a charlatan.
Indeed the hadith you quoted is true. We are not calling Muslims as Kafirs but are not accepting kafirs as Muslims! Our stance is the same as that of *Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad *
You are committing kufr and will be answerable to Allah. Tell me where is it that we are 'disowning' what's written in the book ? Why don't you try to understand what we are saying? You seem to be the only person wishing to be called a kafir.
Yes indeed I and everyone will be answerable Allah Almighty.
I am really trying to understand whom I should believe; You and your friends over here or Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad and his dad Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani!!!!!!
Both statements are diametrically opposite to each other.
If an Ahmadi likes of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad declared me a kafir – that will be a badge of honour for me, nay all Muslims will accept that from him.
What saddens me is the fact that you dont apply this situation on your own self. When Isa(as) do come back according to your belief, and if you happen to believe Him, what would you call those 'Muslims' who will reject Him? This question seems very simple, but has answers to all your questions. It's like you have admitted that you're not accepting anyone sent by Allah, but a mere 'belief' of someone 'returning' will keep you Muslims.
I will accept Hz. Isa ibn Maryum (peace be upon him) wholeheartedly and I am rejecting Ghulam Ahmad ibn Chirag Bibi wholeheartedly.
For us, being called a Muslim or not by worldly people hold very less value. As long as Allah accepts us as Muslims and His Prophet pBUH calls us Muslim, we care not a bit what you call us. But same is not the case with you. You like to be 'called' a Muslim by mere beliefs and are happy with it, without giving it a thought about what your actual beliefs are.
Anyway, I know that the purpose of this thread has been fulfilled. Answers have been given to you. Read and think with the brain God has given you.
I think I'm done from this thread. God bless.
We take the Blessed Quran and the Blessed sayings and actions of the Blessed Messenger of Allah Almighty (peace and blessings be upon him) as basis of our faith. Full Stop.
Welcome Mezhgan Indeed it is so difficult – we have two camps over here
Camp 1 Ahmadi the posters on the board here.
This camp considers mainstream Muslims committing kufr by rejecting a prophet but still within the fold of Islam and address them as non-Ahmadi Muslims
See for yourself.
Camp two** Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and his son later a successor Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad consider mainstream Muslims as Pakkay Kafirs and out fold of Islam
**
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani states:
“God almighty has conveyed it to me that every person to whom my call is conveyed and who does not accept me is not a Muslim and is accountable to God for his default
**
Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad –** son and successor of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad stated the following:
“the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his Bai‘at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiah as”.
"And lastly, it was argued from a verse of the Holy Quran that such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiah as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues, were yet veritable Kafirs.( “pakkay kafir” his words in Urdu )" A’inah-i Sadaqat (p. 140)
Please do let us know who speaking with the truth? Camp One or Camp two? What’s your opinion by the way? It will be appreciated. Which camp carries weight?
Ahmadi posters are so non-committal let’s have one more
**
Mr. Popat** - Welcome back! I am sure these two gentlemen are reading from the same script that you have and shamelessly will be ignoring the sayings of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and **Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad
**
It would have been more worthwhile for them to address the following: What happened to the missing hundred of millions
Just to add few very important points across to affirm what is the real original stance of Ahmadis/Qadianis towards the mainstream Muslims.
**Stance of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani **
The case in point is that of Dr. Abdul Hakim khan who was an ardent follower of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani for 20 years and then parted company when he realised the false claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and turned around became a fervent opponent of him (Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani) b*****ng him a liar and labelled him Masih al-Dajjal.
Relationship between them became very acrimonious resulting in both Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and Dr. Abdul Hakim khan predicting that the other will die within their own lifetime.
If one reads the following statement of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani one can clearly note that he has stated that Dr. Abdul Hakim khan “now he has become an unbeliever” – on the grounds that he had rejected claims of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani.
“Another enemy has appeared now; his name is Abdul Hakim Khan and he is a doctor who lives in state of Patiala. He claims that I shall die in his life-time, before the fourth of August 1908, as the sign of his truthfulness. He claims to have been inspired that I am a dajjal (impostor), kafir (unbeliever), and kazzab (habitual liar). At first, he had taken bay’at with me and for twenty years he had continuously been in my Jama’at (movement) and one of my disciples; however, now he has become an unbeliever (e.g. not an Ahmadi/Qadiani)… God has informed me, however, that he will be afflicted with torturous punishment and God will perish him. I shall, on the other hand, remain safe from his mischief. This is a matter in the control of God. Undoubtedly, God will help those who are truthful…” **(Chashma-e-Maeroofat, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 23, P. 337; Ain-ul-Marifa, P. 321-322, May 1908)" **
Point to note in the above quotation that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani had declared Dr. Abdul Hakim khan a disbeliever – in other words a Kafir!
If anyone who can read Urdu read the scanned page from TADHKIRAH ( kindly provided by brother bao bihari) can clearly note that Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani had addressed as Dr. Abdul Hakim khan as Murtad which is Apostate in English of course meaning a Kafir
“God Almighty has conveyed it to me that every person to whom my call [message] is conveyed and who does not accept me is not a Muslim and is accountable to God for this .” (Letter addressed to Dr. Abdul Hakeem Murtad [the apostate). [TADHKIRAH, recorded under the year 1906].
Stance of Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad son of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and second successor to him.
the belief that all those so-called Muslims who have not entered into his Bai‘at formally, wherever they may be, are kuffar and outside the pale of Islam, even though they may not have heard the name of the Promised Messiahas.
Please scroll down to page 56 and 57 on the following link:
A’inah-i Sadaqat - author Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad
“The article was elaborately entitled A Muslim is one who believes in all the messengers of God'. The title itself is sufficient to show that the article was not meant to prove merely that those who did not accept the Promised Messiah were deniers of the Promised Messiah’. Its object rather was to demonstrate that those who did not believe in the Promised Messiah were not Muslims.” A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 135-136)
“Regarding the main subject of my article, I wrote that as we believed the Promised Messiah to be one of the prophets of God, we could not possibly regard his deniers as Muslims.” A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 137-138)
“not only are those deemed to be Kafirs who openly style the Promised Messiah as Kafir, and those who although they do not style him thus, decline still to accept his claim, but even those who, in their hearts, believe the Promised Messiah to be true, and do not even deny him with their tongues, but hesitate to enter into his Bai`at, have here been adjudged to be Kafirs.” **A’inah-i Sadaqat (pp. 139 -140) **
“And lastly, it was argued from a verse of the Holy Quran that such people as had failed to recognise the Promised Messiah as a Rasul even if they called him a righteous person with their tongues, were yet veritable Kafirs.” **A’inah-i Sadaqat (p. 140) **
veritable Kafirs” are “pakkay kafir” in the original Urdu book
Initially Ahmadiyya/Qadiani Jamaat under the tutelage of the British Rule and support adopted very bold, over confident and aggressive stance. They were very confident that with this support they will monopolise Islam!
**New stance of Ahmadi Jamaat - Completely opposite to that of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad and his son Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad **
With shrinking of British Empire and losing the Sub-Continent, Ahmadiyya/Qadiani Jamaat losing the British protection felt defenceless and exposed. So the Ahmadiyya/Qadiani Jamaat have ditched the bold, aggressive and provocative stance of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad and adopted a conciliatory and appeasing stance and coined the new term ‘Non Ahmadi Muslim’!
The ‘scholars’ in the video are clearly at pain avoiding mentioning the stance of their so-called prophet and his son and successor.
Our friends the Ahmadi/Qadiani posters here too have abandoned the stance of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiani and Mirza Bashiruddin Mahmud Ahmad and are quoting from the same script as the one with the ‘scholars’ in the video.
[note] Discussion seems to have hit an impasse. Thread closed. For any questions, comments, or concerns please reach out to one of the team members. Thank you for participating. [/note]
