As a Muslim, I am revolted and offended by the ransacking of Joseph’s Tomb. Not only because we should respect each other’s religious sensibilities, but because Joseph (Prophet Yakoob) is a revered prophet to Muslims as well. I am sure that most share my sense of sorrow and horror at this event.
I would like to know, what is the punishment for desecration of Graves for Muslims from a Quranic standpoint. Would the people who committed this heinous and grave act go to Heaven or Hell?
Wow! When did this happen? Who did it? Were they caught or not?
Can you provide some details/background info NYA?
Muzna, this happened a few days ago, I think on the 3rd or 4th day of Israeli Palestinian riots. A group of Palestinians destroyed the Tomb of Yakoob and burned Jewish religious artifacts and holy books. There reasoning was that by doing so, Israelis will never return to the West Bank. The Palestinian security just stood by and watched. The Tomb was under Palestinian control. Following that incident, a mob of angry Israelis destroyed 2 Mosques in Nazareth. That was also equally shameful act. But the question rises that where does it end and at what point it is considered too much.
Though condemning this act it must be taken into context the following religious incitment of Jews leading up to this event :-
1) One Ariel Sharon marches on the 3rd holiest Shrine in Islam, at Haram Al Sharif.
2) A few days ago Jews attacked and destroyed an ancient Muslim Mosque at Tiberias.
3) Jews have for the last 12 days been attacking Arabs WITHIN the state of Israel proper and attacking Muslim holy shrines.
4) There are 200,000 Jewish settlers living illegally in the territories - they are religious bigots of the first kind and are armed to the teeth!
5) When Israel withdrew from parts of the territories it maintained a large military presence right at the centre of each town like at Nablus.
6)In Hebron for instance there are just 500 religiosly-fundemenatlist Jewish settlers guarded by no less than 2500 soldiers! - a clear religious provocation to Arab Muslims.
7) This so-called Joseph's tomb is only revered by one small Jewish sect and not themajority of Jews in Israel.
After taking into account the above 7 points people should consider the fact that the Palestinians have startes to repair thie Joseph's tomb, yet the Jews have not started repairs on the grand Mosque at Tiberias or any other Mosques in Isreal that have been damaged or raised in the last couple of weeks.
Condemnation should be for all such acts not just this act - but I certainly did not see some people condemn the Sharon visit for the religious insult it was?
THE JEWS STARTED THIS AND THEY SHOULD END IT - PURE AND SIMPLE!
[This message has been edited by Mursalin (edited October 11, 2000).]
Mursalin, This is not a political discussion. There is enough of that happening elsewhere. Let me ask the question once again:
“I would like to know, what is the punishment for desecration of Graves for Muslims from a Quranic standpoint. Would the people who committed this heinous and grave act go to Heaven or Hell?”
With respect I ask you to read All the points I outlined and you will see I was outlining the Religious aspect of your condemnation. Your question cannot be answered because -
Most Jews (the vast majority) don't even consider this shrine religious.
The exact location of Joseph's tomb is very much disputed. A lot of people claim it is Egypt!
A fanatical sect took control of this Joseph's tomb in 1967 - Israel never claimed it before that.
Where was your condemnation of Sharon's visit to Haram Al Sharif i.e. I mean the relgious insult not the politcal stunt he was pulling off.
And you would have been better off starting a topic which condemned all the acts of religious desecration including the Tiberias, Bethlehem and Nazareth Mosques not just this single act.
[This message has been edited by Mursalin (edited October 11, 2000).]
- And you would have been better off starting a topic which condemned all the acts of religious desecration including the Tiberias, Bethlehem and Nazareth Mosques not just this single act.<<<
Excuse me Mursalin but I know how to start a topic.
I said what I said, and whatever the reasons for this desecration, in my opinion, are totally unjustifiable. The Mobs who destroyed this sacred place did so knowing that it was Joseph’s Tomb. Whether it is sacred to 1 Jew or all Jews is not the issue. It wasn’t a movie theater, it was a place where people went to offer prayers. And I do condemn all such acts.
The major victims of this violence are the Palestinians (Muslims and Christians) and you could be more sensitive to the suffering of these people.
How can one be asked to condemn this act when most Jews themselves are no more than mildly perturbed by this act - have you noticed how most Jews including the government of Israel are not making such a big deal over it?
I have given you the actual facts to the background of the this act, the disputed history of the shrine (it is claimed as a holy shrine by a Jewish sect which is considered heretical or non-Jewish by most Jews) and balanced your argument by pointing to the scores of Mosques desecrated by Jews before, during and after this desecration of “Joseph’s Tomb”.
You say at the end -
" And I do condemn all such acts. "
With great respect you could have wrote that in your first opening post
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[This message has been edited by Mursalin (edited October 11, 2000).]
NYahmadi,
Yes, I agree, it was a shmaeful act, but what about the atrocities the jews have done?
or did you not hear about that?
I am sure you know very well that when a war goes on there is alot of "tit for tat", yes?
We can all sit here and make judgements because we are all personally not involved, but go ask all those who are involved and what it is like for them.
In normal and less emotive times it is perfectly fair to ask for condemnation of such acts, provided condemnation is across the board for all acts of religious desecration whether by Muslims, Jews or Christians.
When one side i.e. the Palestinians is suffering untold suffering with scores dying daily emotions run high. And you cannot be asked to condemn one hugely suffering side for a single act against the opressor - the Jews at this time, especialy if the condemnation is clearly one-sided.
Following the brutal killing of Mohammed Al-Durrah last week, 17 other Palestinian Children have died includung yesterday a 9 year child being shot in the head by Israeli soldiers - the child is brain dead. Seeing the pictures brings tears to your eyes and great passion and emotion!
[This message has been edited by Mursalin (edited October 11, 2000).]
The major victims of this violence are the Palestinians (Muslims and Christians) and you could be more sensitive to the suffering of these people.<<<
I am not interested in knowing what your views on sensitivity are. I want to know what gives anyone any right to destroy sacred places? Could you explain what has the suffering of Palestinians got to do with desecration of religious places? Again, the issue is not to which Jewish Sect the Tomb was sacred. People can come up with all kinds of justifications and excuses to avoid answering the real issue. Wasn’t the whole thing started with the Visit to Al-Quds? Wasn’t it Palestinians who viewed that visit as an indignity to their religious sentiments. How can they do the same act of which they are accusing the Jews of doing? Totally ludicrous and self defeating overture.
NYAHmadi said -
Could you explain what has the suffering of Palestinians got to do with desecration of religious places?<<<
In the last 14 days Mosques have been destroyed by rampaging Jews within Israel, and the territories - in Jaffa, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem , Tiberias, Bethlehem and Nazareth. Thats Palestinian suffering and desecration of Muslim holy places for you!
You say -
Wasn’t the whole thing started with the Visit to Al-Quds?<<<
Wasn’t it Palestinians who viewed that visit as an indignity to their religious sentiments.<<<
How can they do the same act of which they are accusing the Jews of doing? <<<
As I said before the Palestinians have condemned this act and are rapidly repairing this so-called religious shrine.
Are the Jews repairing or rebuilding the scores of Mosques they damged or destroyed in Jaffa, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem , Tiberias, Bethlehem and Nazareth in the last 2 weeks? - No!
Interesting exchanges, but I had noticed that a similar discussion was carried out in ‘General’ forum under the thread “Happy Hosh-Rashna” (excuse my spelling!), where the whole Israel-Palestine issue was thrashed in 4 pages. Do the two of you intend to continue this tirade here as well?
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In any case, if I may, just go back to the original post by NYAhmadi and to the question of respect of graves and the islamic ruling on it.
To the best of my knowledge there is nothing in the Quran which provides a ruling on this topic. So, if someone wants to get an opinion, the only available option is ahadith/sunnah/religious text. As I am well aware that NYAhmadi is not very receptive to ahadith, so I am not quoting them here. However, the crux of the matter is that it is not permissible to show disresepct to the graves. A complete answer is available on this link, for those who wish to study further:
http://www.islam-qa.com/QA/5|Jurisprudence_and_Islamic_Rulings(Fiqh)/Janaa’iz_(Funerals)/It_is_not_permissible_to_show_any_kind_of_disrespect_towards_graves.16072000.4309.shtml
Adios!
No Pristine no way is this thread going to run 4 pages. I think we all have learnt important lessons from the Rosh… thread, and I applying them here.
I have made my points which my colleague may disagree with, but as mature adults we agree to disagree and move on…
- Yes where was your condemnation of this vile act of religious bigotry then?<<<
What makes you say that I didn’t condemn the events leading upto the riots? Do I have to rattle all over the internet, like some people, to prove it? I don't think so! I didn’t think that his visit to Al-Quds was religious bigotry in anyway whatsoever – inflammatory it might be (Temple Mount is as sacred to Jews as Al-Quds to Muslims). It were the Palestinians who thought that it was (his visit that is). So considering that, why would they desecrate a Religious place? Save me your arguments of Israelis destroying mosques, and Palestinians building the Tomb again. That is not the question.
I think you are running out of steam, and giving your political rationale. My question once again is
“I would like to know, what is the punishment for desecration of Graves for Muslims from a Quranic standpoint. Would the people who committed this heinous and grave act go to Heaven or Hell?”
Good job Prestine. I will read what the rulings are. Don’t worry about Mursalin and I getting into heated argument. We both know (and respect) each other’s debating skills. If we can’t discuss sensitive issues here, where can we discuss them? I am not that rich to go visit him in the UK, and I don’t think that he plans to come here to NY in near future.
All in all, regardless of what is going on (they can Kill all the Palestinians, God forbid, or nuke the entire Muslim world, God forbid. The desecration of religious places has no justification in my opinion). That’s where I stand.
We are much better than that. We cannot be sucked into this kind of mentality where we think that it is OK to do what is being done to us. That's just my humble opinion.
Well… we really wouldn’t know, right?
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I mean, I am sure you agree that Pristine, Mursalin or NYAhmadi won’t be deciding this.
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It is Allah who will decide this. What we can discuss is whether a certain act is permissible or not. And, I assume there should be no difference of opinion, that disresepct of graves is not permissible.
I could offer no further comments, whether the place in question was infact a grave or not, still if it was a religious and sacred site, it should not have been harmed.
Peace (can we?)
Yikes!
ducks and hides in the corner to prevent harm from crossfire
Have no fear Muzna !
Peace Prevails at last
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P.S. I couldn’t find a smilie for a “pot-smoking” peace sign! - one for Admin!
I thought Joseph was buried in Egypt?
What ever the case, I don't think it should have been torn down. Sure drive them out of your area/town, but don't disrespect the places they HOLD holy.
*V~V~V*He came, He saw, He conquered*V~V~V*