Western powers banning slavery lead to decline of muslim power?

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Please read this link before commenting on this post:

BBC - Religion & Ethics - Islam and slavery: Introduction

I opine that slavery should be reinstituted across the islamic world. We are no longer at the mercy of british and french navies interupting this trade. With the advent of the islamic bomb we have reached military parity with the non-muslims. Slavery is legal in islam, even prophet Muhammed(pbuh) captured, sold and bought slaves, and we should not make something illegal that which is legal according to the koran.

For those that argue that slavery is immoral, keep in mind that this is a western narrative that has snuck its way in to the Islamic world. Slavery in the west is worlds apart from slavery in Islam. Slaves under Islam are treated well in accordance to their social position as opposed to the treatment of slaves in the west.

For those who argue this isn’t a western narrative let me introuce another aspect of confusion that has seeped into our societies but is in complete contradiction of our beliefs as muslims. The concept of a nation state and a citizen, as introduced in the French revolution. In the French revolution, which many modern states are based around, or are moving towards, the idea was proposed that the citizen of a state was equal to all members of the state, regardless of their wealth, education, social standing and religion. However, this is not the case with Islam because a non-muslims can not be an equal to a muslim in a muslim state. The non-muslim cannot attain a position of of high rank within the government of the islamic state.

With this in mind, we should be careful when we state we want a secular state, as these states are based around the French revolution, but the French revolution is opposed to Islam by nature of its own convictions. From seperation of state and religion, to the concept of citizenry, these are notions that are opposed to Islam, and indeed should be repulsive to a muslim who is actually educated about Islam. As a muslim, someone who believes in Islam, we can only support a theocratic state without contradicting ourselves. Supporting a secular state would put you in the western narrative born in the French revolution, which is entirely opposed to the Islamic narrative.

Going back to the original point of this post, the concept that slavery is immoral is another Western narrative. No educated muslim can state that slavery is immoral withouth contradicting their own beliefs.

When I say educated muslim I mean someone who actually has knowledge of Islam, not a lay person. Take this for example, an educated communist, someone who believes in communism, would never say he beleives in private property laws as this is opposed to the ideology of Communism and its narrative. Equally, an educated muslim can never support the notion of a secular state, citizenry, or banning of slavery, as these are concepts that are foreign, and in conflict with the Islamic narrative. Those who try simply achieve gold medals in mental gymnastics.

I argue that part of the ills that face the muslim world is brought about by supporting Islam and the French revolution, which is akin to supporting capitalism and communism.

This is why I support the reintroduction of slavery in pakistan.

What are your thoughts?

Positives:

  • Economic boon as labour costs are reduced
  • Concubinage of captured women would remove the perversity that has affected our society i.e. large pornogrpahy use, teasing of women in public quarters, sexual perversity as evidenced on youtube videos of young pakistanis. With concubinage young muslim men have a healthy outlet to engage in before and after marriage.
  • Reintroduction of our practices and removal of western secular concepts that are based around the French revolution. This would remove the ideological confusion many of our less intelligent muslims face i.e do we support the French revolution or Islam?

Cons:

  • Could lead to slave rebellions like the Zanj revolt but this could be easily avoided in my mind.

If you disagree with me, would you please go into depth why. Questions I would like answered would be along the lines of: why if you think slavery should be made illegal, was it allowed from the time of prophet Muhammed(pbuh) until very recently?

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salam alaikum
Although it has its merits but it cannot be introduced the same way as the barbary corsairs practised it ..i say it openly these "muslim" pirates were simply brutes and savages who waged no holy war enslaved muslims and non-muslims alike their only interest was to pillage and profit from unprotected communities and had no interests of faith in mind.The western navies actually did a good thing by destroying them although they had their own ulterior motives behind it]
There was big difference in slavery in times of prophet and the slavery in muslim lands in 18-19 century.

concubinage is also for married people as well for unmarried but i dont think it will eliminate all the social ills that u speak of e.g does Mutah allowed in iran elimate prostitution there ? or misyar in arabia ] Free love in western countries does not eliminate porn or prostitution.

offcourse we dont support upstarts like the robespierre but that does not mean we adopt every despotic, imperialistic and autocratic instituion that french revolution opposed.

Zanj rebellion had other causes too but discrimination against nonarab muslim slaves was a big one.Ruling elite of Arab muslims had become corrupt and decadent like the french kings that triggered a variety of revolts from the pious and the not so pious poor. There is no way to eliminate this problem unless we create men like the characters who existed around the time of the Prophet.Who will not abuse slavery, the present state of muslims they will abuse any system no matter how innocuous it may seem

as far as purchasing women for concubinage is concerned its not a big deal it can still be done if ur interested in some rural parts of pakistan if u know the right people.We just dont call that slavery just "gift" some money to the girls father uncle etc then u get the girl and she is pretty much dependent on u.Now obviously if u r raised in "moderate" muslim household u will freak out at this but thats the only way closest to getting a slave nowdays

lastly the decline of "muslim" power happened the day they changed the sunnah of the Prophet and his pious successors all the glit and glory that u see after that is the glory of arab/turk/persian nationalism thats not islamic glory.

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So the pros are: cheap labor, sex slaves for men and a it reinforces the "truth of Islam". The only con is that these slaves might actually not like being slaves so they might revolt.

That has got to be the poorest excuse and worst written garbage to justify a heinous crime as I have ever seen. Facist, misogynic, incoherent junk.

reinstituting slavery remove secularlism?

Giving men multiple healthy outlets (women) is somehow less perverse than youtube?

Military parity with non-Muslims?

A braggable point of this archaic society you long for is that "the citizen of a state was equal to all members of the state, regardless of their wealth, education, social standing and religion. However, this is not the case with Islam because a non-muslims can not be an equal to a muslim in a muslim state."

Do you really need to know reasons why people would disagree with this garbage?

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Re: Western powers banning slavery lead to decline of muslim power?

[quote]

However, this is not the case with Islam because a non-muslims can not be an equal to a muslim in a muslim state. The non-muslim cannot attain a position of of high rank within the government of the islamic state.

[/quote]

could not agree more ! but for that u have to abandon this dream of a pakistan as envisioned by Jinnah & Iqbal for that we need a genuine islamic state

secondly whats the point of doing it simply for slavery as only 3% population is nonmuslim and even they will not provide good quality slaves and secondly u cannot enslave them at will as u have to provide them dhimmi status of protected minorities unless u have subjugated them in war

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this discussion is for muslims only u r entitled 2 ur views but dont use offensive language

Pakistan Vs Bangladesh Asia Cup 2012 Final 22 March 2012
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  1. Which is it? Is it for muslims only or am I entitled to my views? Do your views of non-Muslims not having equal rights extend to this forum?
  2. What is my offensive language? btw, any Muslim, woman or humane person should be terribly offended by this post.
  3. You have apparently picked a very appropriate screen name.
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Re: Western powers banning slavery lead to decline of muslim power?

Islam did not start slavery, it was already being practiced , Islam emphasized freeing slaves . Islam at least in Quran does not order the Muslims to go and start making people slaves on the contrary Quran has prescribed freeing slaves as penalty for many sins. I agree there is not a direct order for abolishment of slavery but these verses which prescribe this penalty indirectly abolish slavery.
Again based on many ahadees people try to justify keeping slaves.
Someone might quote verses from Quran in which it is allowed to have sexual relation with slave girls , that permission is for those who still had some slave girls in their possession. Quran did not permit or order the Muslims to go and take women in captivity so that they could satisfy their sexual urges.
This is how I see it , many will not see it that way and will differ with me , so be it.

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Without addressing the moral issues:

-It would not help economically, as Islamically a slave's owner is obliged to feed and shelter his slave at the same standard as himself. This means the economic cost of emplyment would rise. If you are wealthier in Pakistan or most Muslim societies, you can exploit poor labourers by payng them poverty wages. such that they can barely afford food if they are lucky and completely inadequate shelter. Having to provide food and shelter for them at the standard required by Islam would in fact be more expensive.

Secondly, in an environment where people no longer being slaves, what do you do if a slave refuses to accept it, and refuses to work. You are not allowed to beat slaves, and yet you still have to look after their welfare. Unwilling slaves would end up being an economic burden unless freed.

Iran and Mutah marriages show that even where the population believes that there is an islamically valid way to access easy sex, perversions continue. Therefore you can discount the role concubines would play.

Looking at the life of the Prophet (pbuh), by the time of his last major conquest (Mecca), he stopped taking slaves even in war. That, coupled with the strict rules about slave welfare that I mentioned above (no beating, no exploitation), suggest to me that like divorce, Islam permits yet frowns upon slavery.

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Please spare me the BS and tell me if anybody would be willing to be a slave in modern times. How would it feel if you had to let your immediate family be slaves.. especially the women.

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Slavery was never banned.....and it is still practiced all over America

it was given a different name..........."Mexican Farm Labor"...........they bring fresh produce to America's tables and build homes and do the grunt work....for less than mimum wages......and are not accepted into society.....even though they are not forced into bondage.....they are not treated as equals...........Islam preached against that.

Seyed Sahib has conveneintly ignored that......:(

Kemo Sabay speak with Forked Tongue.........:biggthumb

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Re: Western powers banning slavery lead to decline of muslim power?

just one point.

How many people look down on the mai's who work in houses. The saudi's look down on the people who work for them..........

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Re: Western powers banning slavery lead to decline of muslim power?

Employment is the modern form of slavery.

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Following a fundamentalist view of religion is the modern form of slavery.

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this thread was for those who believe in islam obviously from a nonmuslim perspective starting slavery would be concerning

as far as my nic is concerned I really liked them as they destroyed many strongholds of french terrorism which they call "resistence" ]

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This is completely off topic, but the 2nd SS Panzer Division "Das Reich" that the GS member is named after won more individual awards for bravery in combat than any other German military formation in history. It was the most elite combat formation to have ever been deployed by Germany.

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Re: Western powers banning slavery lead to decline of muslim power?

^ thanks for mentioning that MS and if anyone is interested Max Hasting's book "Das Reich" is a good objective resource as the waffen SS have been much vilified by third grade historians

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Who gives a crap how elite or brave or well trained they were... they were NAZIS. I don't know or care how about the poster's fighting ability. I was referring to the views expressed that are nazi-like in their philosophy. And 3rd grade level in their mentality.

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Re: Western powers banning slavery lead to decline of muslim power?

This is one of the most offensive posts that i have ever read from a muslim.

How do you beleive in a God who says that one man is superior to another, or one man can enslave another. I thought only jews had such ideas.

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A common frustration of surviving German war veterans is that they are all labelled as Nazis. While this was certainly true of Waffen-SS units early in WW2, by later in the war many SS members were conscripts, or volunteers drawn by the superior equipment given to them.

The majority of Germans who fought in WW2 fought ought of patriotism, not lvoe of the nazi party. Now that their country was at war at they felt an obligation to protect it from what their new enemies would do to them if they lost the war. Once germany was at war, what could an ordinary German man do to ensure that his country did not lose territory, what could he do to protect his country and his people from the enemies that his leaders had made?

Overthrowing the government would not have saved Germany, so rebellion is not an option. Even if Hitler was overthrown in 1940 and Germany capitulated, France and Poland would set about exacting revenge for early aggresions. bear in mind that even the "heroes" who tried to kill Hitler in the 1944 bomb plot did not mean to immediately surrender and end the war... they believed the war would be lost the way Hitler was fighting it.

The only thing the german could do for his country was to fight as bravely and as hard as he could.

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ur mentality is no better than a hickster from KKK who thinks that all black people are niggers