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1

Are you tired of reading a book that tells you how to live your life?

Are you tired of limiting yourself, because someone said certain things are wrong?

Are you tired of being told, you’re going to goto Hell if you didn’t do certain rituals at certain times.

Are you tired of starving yourself, because you have no idea why.

Aren’t you tired, that society and the whole world is against itself, because of a few things said by people who may have existed several thousand years ago

Aren’t you tired wasting your Sunday’s and Friday’s at some sort of religious function.

If you’re tired of all of these things.

Atheism is for you.

Atheist - The ONLY SOLUTION.

Arai

2

Are you tired of being completely ignorant?

Atheism is not the solution

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

kutta ban gaya houn tairay pyar mein
sunnah chahti ho to sunoh
BHOW BHOW!!

3

wooohoooo
what a solution
my GOD, im amazed!!!

arai...as far as aspects of communism were concerned it was all good....but then comes along athiesm....sheesh...try and get a life ok?....

hmm..i wonder how RNA actually came about from teh fission of nucleic particles which were just somehow present in teh begining of the world......oh, the begining of the world,,,when was that??? jeez....

4

sherry make it ARENT YOU......(the first line)....hehe..

5

hell I'm convinced !.... hey Arai, you should also include in that list ..
** If you want to lead a meaningless, directionless and empty life, with no gratitude towards your Creator nor appreciation for all that he has given you.. to go through life thinking money, wealth and posessions are all that matter.. then become an Atheist !**

Death is only the Beginning.

6

Arai: Are you seriously trying to invite Muslim guppees, Christian guppees, Hindu guppees or guppees, who follow any other religion at all to become atheists.
Not we (the believers) are those looking for the sense of life. We have already found it.
You guys are those, who are either looking for it or think being materialistic is the sense of life.

Umer, the Pakistani Brain of Austria

7

Arai.. This is the most nonsensical “invitation” to Atheism I have ever seen. Atheism has its own merits, and is not a movement that people join because they are “tired”. Don’t shortchange Atheists.

8

Ultimate test for Atheism…Strangle them SSSSLLLLOOOOWWWWWLLLLYYYYY…and see who they turn to…

If they dont before they die…they are truely fully Atheist

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/ok.gif

9

I have no idea why I'm entertaining this, but, oh well...

[quote]
Originally posted by arai:
** Are you tired of reading a book that tells you how to live your life?
**
[/quote]

Not if the book truly inspires me, and creates a feeling in my heart and mind that I have never felt before - hope, admiration, bliss.

[quote]
Originally posted by arai:
*Are you tired of limiting yourself, because someone said certain things are wrong? *
[/quote]

Not if I also believe that those things are also wrong.

[quote]
Originally posted by arai:
Are you tired of being told, you're going to goto Hell if you didn't do certain rituals at certain times.
[/quote]

Sure. But there are plenty of theisms that don't say you are going to Hell.

[quote]
Originally posted by arai:
Are you tired of starving yourself, because you have no idea why.
[/quote]

Fasting helps you gain a certain perspective you would not have otherwise. It is an experience that helps you focus.

[quote]
Originally posted by arai:
Aren't you tired, that society and the whole world is against itself, because of a few things said by people who may have existed several thousand years ago
[/quote]

Many things that were relevant several thousand years ago are still relevant today. Whether they are from 4000 year old Hindu gurus, or 1400 year old Muslim ones, whatever they said is not a priori incorrect.

[quote]
Originally posted by arai:
Aren't you tired wasting your Sunday's and Friday's at some sort of religious function.
[/quote]

Actually, no. Seva (somehow, some way) makes you feel better. Besides, it's a way to be social.

[quote]
Originally posted by arai:
Atheist - The ONLY SOLUTION.
[/quote]

I agree with NYA - there are better ways to prosletyze Atheism.

Methinks you should try Taoism. Give the Tao Te Ching a read - only half an hour of your time.

10

given that u claim to be atheist, why are u so worried if people call u sikh or hindu or wahabi? u should be out of this mess in toto, right!

11

im glad that there is religion.......we got morals from religion....but atheiusm give us nothin guidelines to follow.....if no religious dudeslike prophets came into world then we would have been introuble and normal for atheists to murder and steal but laws taken from religious dudes protect us.

[This message has been edited by Girl from Quraysh (edited December 11, 2000).]

12

Mr. Neutral -

Being atheist does not mean one loses his conscience. The field of ethics exists outside of religion, and nothing in atheism, rationalism, materialism, or humanism necessarily contradicts religious ethics.

Similarly, followers of religions such as Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, etc. do not have such a spotless record when it comes to ethics.

There is no basis for a theist to be elitist over an atheist in the case of ethics and morals.

13

Hahaha ..
Man that was the funniest post I have read in a while, arai.

It reminded me of those late night TV Commercials. Here is the ending for your post though;

....and if you act now, you will also receive this beautiful gift, for you to keep.....ABSOLUTELY FREE, So call now...
1-800-get-a-life
Once again, that is...
1-800 gee , e, tee, a, el, eye, ef, ee
all credit cards are excepted and NO COD please.

[This message has been edited by Pungay_Baaz (edited December 11, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Pungay_Baaz (edited December 12, 2000).]

14

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif

15

**Do want to give up to ignorance and be a freak?
Do you want tell your self that your a mistake, a mistake by nature?
Do you want tell your self that you just happened, for no cause?
Do you want believe that your existence is meaningless, no point what so ever?

Then go ahead join your friend Aria! You will love being an arrogant person. **

We are the Taleban-Resistance is Futile

16

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
*Do want to give up to ignorance and be a freak? *
[/quote]

Atheism has its roots in rationalism, with views on ontology and cosmology that differ from theistic views. It is not a question of ignorance, but of belief. You're selling atheism short due to a narrow minded view.

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
Do you want tell your self that your a mistake, a mistake by nature?
[/quote]

As opposed to the "plaything" of a creator? Which atheist looks at themselves as a "mistake"? Or is this your way of rationalizing why atheism isn't "True"?

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
Do you want tell your self that you just happened, for no cause?
[/quote]

And what cause would you be speaking of? The cause of "going to Heaven"? The cause of God's "whim"? The cause of special elitism - we're here cause God wanted us here? What type of argument are you trying to make?

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
Do you want believe that your existence is meaningless, no point what so ever?
[/quote]

Ah, yes. Here we get to the fundamental point - you have no idea what an atheist believes, nor how there are many different views amongst those who believe that there is no creator.

So what if existence is meaningless? Is that what you're hanging your entire belief system on - the hope that there really is something more than what you see around you? Atheists are also realists, and your questions show a great lack of understanding of even basic philosophical premises.

17

Astrofan
Atheism has its roots in rationalism, with views on ontology and cosmology that differ from theistic views. It is not a question of ignorance, but of belief. You're selling atheism short due to a narrow minded view.

You and your 2 sec crap again huh? LOL I think you want to look stupid again…
So tell me this, which will you rather believe?

You created by a supreme being (GOD)? Or you are a project/experiment by some aliens that used to live on MARS 1 billion years ago?
That does it for your Atheism.

As opposed to the "plaything" of a creator? Which atheist looks at themselves as a "mistake"? Or is this your way of rationalizing why atheism isn't "True"?

Plaything? Now isn’t that short and narrow minded of you?
Oh wait I had to expect that from you :)

I think they all do think that they just happened with out a cause. All they think is that maybe some one was experimenting or bunch of camicals got mixed up and BAM! The next thing you know you, you have humans.

And what cause would you be speaking of? The cause of "going to Heaven"? The cause of God's "whim"? The cause of special elitism - we're here cause God wanted us here? What type of argument are you trying to make?

And can you please tell me what cause do you believe in? Why are you here Mr. Hurry Ram / Krishna???

Ah, yes. Here we get to the fundamental point - you have no idea what an atheist believes, nor how there are many different views amongst those who believe that there is no creator.
So what if existence is meaningless? Is that what you're hanging your entire belief system on - the hope that there really is something more than what you see around you? Atheists are also realists, and your questions show a great lack of understanding of even basic philosophical premises.

I have no idea of what an atheist believes are? Well I don’t have to know after living with them for 10 years and taking a look at there big EXAMPLE USA that have done almost every thing that was forbidden for thousands of years in the last 100 years?
Atheist basically mean "Lets be irresponsible/unreasonable because science haven't proved it yet! Or because if you can't see it with your own eyes then it don’t exist."
But I don’t blame you for feeling for your Atheist friends, it's that you're all full of crap crap crap… One believes in an Alien forefather and the other believes in a GOD with 3 heads or 6 arms or half man/ape/rat/elephant! Now can you tell me is that rationale or reasonable or believable? And on top of that your creators died and vanished from existence them selves.
Just because Hinduism or any other religion couldn't do it for you or did not have all the answers doesn't' mean that you should stop looking and sit on your arse and watch TV and wait for discovery channel to tell you who you really are!

We are the Taleban-Resistance is Futile

[This message has been edited by yOuNgBrAt (edited December 12, 2000).]

18

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
You created by a supreme being (GOD)? Or you are a project/experiment by some aliens that used to live on MARS 1 billion years ago?
[/quote]

Why is the former better than the latter exactly? Are you that insecure about your whole existence? And where does atheism say the latter is true? And if I'm not incorrect, the Muslims on this board can't seem to agree that there is a God.

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
*Plaything? Now isn’t that short and narrow minded of you? *
[/quote]

You tell me if this world is "Allah's will" or not. Narrow-minded is how your theism looks to pretty much anyone else. When I double it back on you, you can't handle it.

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
*I think they all do think that they just happened with out a cause. All they think is that maybe some one was experimenting or bunch of camicals got mixed up and BAM! The next thing you know you, you have humans. *
[/quote]

So, why is this bad exactly? If I pick up a brick, and let it go - it will fall. The brick didn't consciously fall. I didn't tell the brick to fall. It is a natural process. Similarly, the atheist believes in a natural process that causes life - there is no consciousness necessary for a natural process to occur.

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
*And can you please tell me what cause do you believe in? Why are you here Mr. Hurry Ram / Krishna??? *
[/quote]

I am an advaitist, who believes there is a cosmic force (which can be termed God or Gaea or ether or "The Force") from which all is created, and which all is a part of. I believe this unifying force is underlying both the manifest and unmanifest universe, and that creation is a natural manifestation of this unmanifest force, much as the brick that falls is a natural process. I believe that by abstracting reality far enough to realize this unifying force, one can gain God-realization.

In particular, I am here at pak.org to learn from the likes Pristine, GFQ, Akif, Partypooper, and others who wish to share their knowledge without being overbearing.

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
*I have no idea of what an atheist believes are? *
[/quote]

yes. You have shown no knowledge of Buddhism, Taoism, or Nyaya Hinduism. Yet you proceed to know what atheists are about. It is laughable.

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
*Well I don’t have to know after living with them for 10 years and taking a look at there big EXAMPLE USA that have done almost every thing that was forbidden for thousands of years in the last 100 years? *
[/quote]

The U.S.A. is "... one nation, under God... ". It sure is not a land of atheists. North America is 85% Christian. It's not atheism that you have your problems with.

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
Atheist basically mean "Lets be irresponsible/unreasonable because science haven't proved it yet! Or because if you can't see it with your own eyes then it don’t exist."
[/quote]

No. Atheism means there is no God, and there is no logical proof for God. You have no grounds to say that Islam is any more responsible or reasonable than any other system of inquiry. Islamic history is not pristine.

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
*But I don’t blame you for feeling for your Atheist friends, it's that you're all full of crap crap crap… *
[/quote]

Hmm, for some reason, I can't imagine your God likes it when you swear.

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
*One believes in an Alien forefather and the other believes in a GOD with 3 heads or 6 arms or half man/ape/rat/elephant! Now can you tell me is that rationale or reasonable or believable? And on top of that your creators died and vanished from existence them selves. *
[/quote]

Again, you show little to no understanding of mythology. The rationale is that mythology teaches us Rta (cosmic order) in the same way that Islam teaches through parable.

You forget - my creator is a non-conscious entity of which I am a part. Hidden underneath the recesses of my body, my mind, and my heart lies the Atman (Supreme Self) that is a part of the supreme universe (Brahman).

[quote]
Originally posted by yOuNgBrAt:
*Just because Hinduism or any other religion couldn't do it *
[/quote]

I am Hindu. Where did you get the idea I wasn't?

19

very well, astrofan, let's try this for a minute, let's leave religion out of this, since atheism is based on logic.

you believe in a supreme being or cosmic force or whatever, according to you.
Please provide me with irrefutable proof, that such a higher being exists. Make sure it's something that someone is able to accept very easily and logically. If I have to stretch my imagination, to accept this proof then we are going into faith territory again.

will wait for your proof.

**orignally posted by astrofan

I am an advaitist, who believes there is a cosmic force (which can be termed God or Gaea or ether or "The Force") from which all is created, and which all is a part of. I believe this unifying force is underlying both the manifest and unmanifest universe, and that creation is a natural manifestation of this unmanifest force, much as the brick that falls is a natural process. I believe that by abstracting reality far enough to realize this unifying force, one can gain God-realization. **

20

first I defend theism (and Islam in the process) and then I defend atheism, and now I defend advaita in the same thread. Wow. You guys are fickle.

PZ -

In most cases, irrefutable proof is not possible, since religion is based on experential evidence. From the Hindu standpoint, you cannot know Brahman if you do not try to experience it, by way of meditation and yoga (where yoga is a path that leads to God-Realization).

I cannot offer you irrefutable proof, as you cannot offer irrefutable proof to me. I can offer you the promise that if you follow a yogic path that you will one day understand this.

Therefore, since we (you and I) are short of experience, logic must take over - itjihad, if you will.

So let us begin - we know that there are forces we cannot see, but we can perceive their effects. Wind is a simple example. Another example is gravity. No matter how much you try to get away from it - gravity always exists and always attracts two objects with mass. However, gravity is simply a force, measurable and impersonal - it is not "alive", it does not make conscious decisions to attract two objects together. So we can agree there exist forces that are not directly observable but can be indirectly inferred by their effects.

Similarly, we see the effect of creation - matter, energy, force, leading to plants, animals, humanity, etc. All this came from something, right? What is that something?

  • Is it a conscious God (Yahweh, Allah, etc.)?
  • Is there a non-conscious force that drives creation (much as my brick falling example)?
  • Did it come from nothing by itself?
  • Was it always there (infiniti)?

These questions are not independent. But we can look to see if we can find this non-conscious force. So let us abstract matter, energy, and forces.

All matter is made up of molecules. All molecules are made up of atoms. All atoms are made up protons, neutrons, and electrons. These particles are all made of the same set of quarks. There is nothing more to matter, unless we keep getting smaller, and keep decreasing the number of constituent subparticles.

But then, we look at energy, and how it relates to matter. E=mc^2. All matter is frozen energy. This much we know from science. This is what we have known from philosophical Hinduism for a long time - there is an undercurrent of energy within us and without us. Not only that, there is no distinction in energy, like there is distinction in matter. For example, I can point to two different computers, and say they are separate items. But not so with energy, and when you abstract enough, the computers really aren't that separate either. They are the same material, packaged in a different way. Abstract a bit more, and you will see that your body and a computer are the same material, but packaged in a different way. Abstract a bit more, and you will see the whole universe is made of the same material, but packaged in the different way.

Abstract as far as you can imagine - that there is an underlying energy to the whole process. Termed a cosmic fire in olden times, which, as science progresses, is a term we can refine as our understanding grows. Much like gravity, it is an unconscious energy. It manifests itself automatically, without intervention on its own behalf, because each level of detail that inherits from it is also unconscious.

If you submit to the will of God, and I mean submit everything you do, you cannot help but realize this unifying force. If every action you take, every thought you make, every ounce of energy in your body is pointed towards acting in God's will, you will begin to see the unity in God's creation - for everything around you is God's will. This is a perception of that underlying cosmic force. It is not necessarily incorrect, and will lead you to the same goal of realization.