Welcome to the World of Atheism.

Astrofan
Why is the former better than the latter exactly? Are you that insecure about your whole existence? And where does atheism say the latter is true? And if I'm not incorrect, the Muslims on this board can't seem to agree that there is a God.

Well you are not correct! You seem to be confused about a lot of stuff; this might be to because you don’t really know what to believe in.
Hindu or Atheist? Its up to you, and when it really hurts up there in the tiny mass in your head called brain, then comet suicide. That is what people do when it doesn’t make sense any more.

You tell me if this world is "Allah's will" or not. Narrow-minded is how your theism looks to pretty much anyone else. When I double it back on you, you can't handle it.

Everything is Allah’s will, kafirs just don’t get it because they don’t want to get it. Not everything is “happy” “happy”. There is such thing as you get what you paid for and that is what you are mostly afraid of. Is what you will get and from whom!

So, why is this bad exactly? If I pick up a brick, and let it go - it will fall. The brick didn't consciously fall. I didn't tell the brick to fall. It is a natural process. Similarly, the atheist believes in a natural process that causes life - there is no consciousness necessary for a natural process to occur.

Natural process? What is natural? Where is this natural? I don’t see your nature or your natural that you claim to be behind every force. And if it is then you tell me who created it? How can it happen by it self? You don’t expect me to believe that everything happens without a reason, that there is no action of a cause?

Now I call that very stupid!

I once used something like your brick theory. My science teacher once said that he doesn’t believe in GOD. So I picked up a book, and held it high, then I let it go. It slammed right on the table. Then I asked the teacher “How come the book didn’t stay in the air?” and he said “Because gravity pulls, and it had to drop” and I said “What gravity? I don’t see anything? Should I not believe in gravity since I can’t see it? Just like you can’t believe in GOD because you can’t see it or can’t explain it?” The guy had no words, but later came up and showed me explaining gravity with some scientific crap, and I just ignored the existence of gravity just like you and your atheist friends and my science teacher ignores in the almighty.

I am an advaitist, who believes there is a cosmic force (which can be termed God or Gaea or ether or "The Force") from which all is created, and which all is a part of. I believe this unifying force is underlying both the manifest and unmanifest universe, and that creation is a natural manifestation of this unmanifest force, much as the brick that falls is a natural process. I believe that by abstracting reality far enough to realize this unifying force, one can gain God-realization.

I only got the part where you said you’re an advaitest but the rest just smelled like crap so it was ignored.

In particular, I am here at pak.org to learn from the likes Pristine, GFQ, Akif, Partypooper, and others who wish to share their knowledge without being overbearing.

Ok very very very interesting, am I suppose to feel pitty for you now because you are here to learn? OK lets for get all this……just tell me honestly! What have you learned so far about Islam from these people? All I ever seen you do is point and laugh and when conffrffanted you run away like a mad cow (like the tatoo post) .

yes. You have shown no knowledge of Buddhism, Taoism, or Nyaya Hinduism. Yet you proceed to know what atheists are about. It is laughable.

Here this is what I know ITS BUNCHA CRAP!

The U.S.A. is "... one nation, under God... ". It sure is not a land of atheists. North America is 85% Christian. It's not atheism that you have your problems with.

85% Christian? Hahahahahahahahaahahahahha now that is funny!!! Now that is what I call funny……. 85% Christians and there youth idol is Marilyn Manson the Anti Christ? ahahahahahahahah Just shows how much you know.

No. Atheism means there is no God, and there is no logical proof for God. You have no grounds to say that Islam is any more responsible or reasonable than any other system of inquiry. Islamic history is not pristine.

Those are the words of kaffir and why should I believe or reason with kaffir who don’t really know the reason behind his own existence? Just because you eat and sleep and drink white, doesn’t mean you become white.

Hmm, for some reason, I can't imagine your God likes it when you swear.

You shouldn’t imagine about God sense you don’t believe in any!

Again, you show little to no understanding of mythology. The rationale is that mythology teaches us Rta (cosmic order) in the same way that Islam teaches through parable.

Again your mythology don’t matter. It only matters to you because it’s yours :)

You forget - my creator is a non-conscious entity of which I am a part. Hidden underneath the recesses of my body, my mind, and my heart lies the Atman (Supreme Self) that is a part of the supreme universe (Brahman).

Were you shaking your head right and left when you wrote that above? Sounds like you were in some real deep meditation :)

I am Hindu. Where did you get the idea I wasn't?

I know you were a Hindu, why else will some one waste time on absurd crap? :)

Oh one thing, when I said kafir I meant none believers and Crap is like trash…… like your above stuff.

And please I would really like to know what you have learned from the people you said you are learning from, beside they being more polite and educated about there pasting, in which I don’t give a dinga ling cuz I don’t care for ignorant trash. I treat trash like its supposed to be treated :)


We are the Taleban-Resistance is Futile

[quote]
Originally posted by arai:
**
Are you tired of reading a book that tells you how to live your life?

Are you tired of limiting yourself, because someone said certain things are wrong?

Are you tired of being told, you're going to goto Hell if you didn't do certain rituals at certain times.

Are you tired of starving yourself, because you have no idea why.

Aren't you tired, that society and the whole world is against itself, because of a few things said by people who may have existed several thousand years ago

Aren't you tired wasting your Sunday's and Friday's at some sort of religious function.

If you're tired of all of these things.

Atheism is for you.

Atheist - The ONLY SOLUTION.

Arai

**
[/quote]

well brother arai my co religionist will hate me for this but i do admire some of the things mentioned by you but i want to add here that i guess fear of god must be there in our hearts cause its good for us and perhaps its good for the society too

Astrofan, since you accepted in the beginning of your article that you cannot provide irrefuteable proof, your long post was not really necessary.

Only Islam provides us with irrefuteable prrof that it is the religion of Allah and Quran is the word of God.
This has been proven may times, through scientific research. There have been things described in the Quran that the modern science is only just discovering and some that it has yet to discover or confirm.

Do some search on the web and you will find out.
If you need help, let us know and I or someone else will provide you with links.

[This message has been edited by purana_zamana (edited December 13, 2000).]

well done guppees!!

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

i was going to write a whole lot but seeing all of your responses, i guess i dont have to

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif

** Surah Al-Baqara 2:28- How can ye reject the faith in Allah.- seeing that ye were without life, and He gave you life; then will He cause you to die, and will again bring you to life; and again to Him will ye return. **
**2:107 Knowest thou not that to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Him ye have neither patron nor helper. **


“I was just here. Where did I go?” (Fox Mulder)

[This message has been edited by hk (edited December 13, 2000).]

[quote]
Originally posted by purana_zamana:
Only Islam provides us with irrefuteable prrof that it is the religion of Allah and Quran is the word of God.
[/quote]

Your proof does not stand the "Dream" test. What is the difference between your dream state and the "reality" state. What about your states of unconsciousness/deep sleep? Which is truly real? How can you be sure there isn't another state of being that is more "awake" than the one you are in now?

Your proof does not stand the "Matrix" test. Simply put, if you are in the Matrix, all it takes is one omniscient, omnipotent, malevolent being to deceive you into believing what you believe.

Does gravity exist? Maybe, maybe not. It might just be that every time you observe something falling, there is a being behind you that causes it to fall. If you weren't there, maybe the object doesn't fall, cause the invisible being isn't there. This is the "Deceiver" test. Every law of physics, each situation you are in, can be set up to deceive you into thinking something that is not true. This can also be called "The Truman Show" test.

What about the "Total Recall" test? Creation may actually have occurred 5 minutes ago, and everything you know/remember/felt before that may simply have been created by God.

I get the real feeling you think I have not studied Islam. That would be wrong. But I also get the feeling you have studied nothing outside of Islam. Taoism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Baha'i, anything at all. Perhaps I should point you to those resources?

[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited December 13, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited December 14, 2000).]

Hey Arai, I understand your farustration. But tell me:

Who created you? I know, I know, that mini-big-bang theory happened and you were created. But who made that happen, how?

My answer is GOD(Allah) did it.

Would you please enlighten me with your knowledge of Human creation.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Thanks

Take it easy.


V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**


----*High Priest-OF-Church-OF-Painful Truth*----

Hey Watcher, long time -

question for ya (seriously) -

Why does it matter who created you?

please tell me thats a rhetorical question

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif


“Amor Fati”

[quote]
Originally posted by astrosfan:
** Your proof does not stand the "Dream" test. What is the difference between your dream state and the "reality" state. What about your states of unconsciousness/deep sleep? Which is truly real? How can you be sure there isn't another state of being that is more "awake" than the one you are in now?

Your proof does not stand the "Matrix" test. Simply put, if you are in the Matrix, all it takes is one omniscient, omnipotent, malevolent being to deceive you into believing what you believe.

Does gravity exist? Maybe, maybe not. It might just be that every time you observe something falling, there is a being behind you that causes it to fall. If you weren't there, maybe the object doesn't fall, cause the invisible being isn't there. This is the "Deceiver" test. Every law of physics, each situation you are in, can be set up to deceive you into thinking something that is not true. This can also be called "The Truman Show" test.

What about the "Total Recall" test? Creation may actually have occurred 5 minutes ago, and everything you know/remember/felt before that may simply have been created by God.

I get the real feeling you think I have not studied Islam. That would be wrong. But I also get the feeling you have studied nothing outside of Islam. Taoism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Baha'i, anything at all. Perhaps I should point you to those resources?

[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited December 13, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited December 14, 2000).]**
[/quote]

i find this totally irrelevant to the topic being discussed...ie."atheism"
the infalibility of the Holy Quran is not being discussed here,which, by the way, is accepted by both Muslims non-muslims..AND scholars who've studied Taoism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism, Baha'i, and tribal religions u and i have never heard of. But i digress..
stick to the topic plz everyone.


"Amor Fati"

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/hehe.gif


V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**


----*High Priest-OF-Church-OF-Painful Truth*----

Astrofan, since you accepted in the beginning of your article that you cannot provide irrefuteable proof, your long post was not really necessary.

So that's all it matters to you? An irrefuteable proof? You don't want to think out of your religious box, do you? Whether or not Astrofan's theory makes sense (to you personally or in general), all you care about the programmed rationalization and finding the irrefuteable proof?

Religion, any established one or in theory itself, is not about irrefuteable proofs. It's about faith and belief. If you want irrefuteable proofs, go read Einstein or Newton.

I can count on my fingers the number of posts with substance posted on this particular forum in past two years, and Astrofan's unnecessary post was one of them, even though I don't agree with his theory.

hk,

Is it a rhetorical question? Or is it a question you can't answer?

On this thread of atheism - tell me why it matters who (or what) the creator is? Does it make you a better person? Does it make the world around you a better place? Does such knowledge fill a hole in the heart that otherwise burns with desire? Does it inspire a person to help those around you?

Is knowledge of the creator a fundamental necessity to live?

So, the answer is no, it is not a rhetorical question, but rather, a question fundamental to the needs of a human being while living on this earth.

You asked for it.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif


Say: **“To whom belong all that is in the heavens and earth?” Say: “To Allah”. He has prescribed for Himself mercy. He will gather you all for the day of judgment in which there is no doubt. The ones who have lost themselves are the ones who will not believe" **[Qur’an, 6:12; Al-An’am, “The Livestock”]

The proofs of God’s existence are all around us. Yet some still believe that all the wonders that surround us, from the infinite intricacy of life to the infinite wisdom with which the stars and planets float in the endless space, are but a coincidence or a product of a blind nature. To believe in that is like believing that a great painter drew a beautiful portrait by splashing buckets of paint on a dry cloth, or that a great writer wrote a masterpiece by throwing printing press letters into the air and watching them arrange themselves into words and sentences.

Because Islam is the religion chosen by God (Allah) until the end of time, and since Mohammad (peace be upon him [pbuh]) is the last of the prophets, the greatest miracles of Islam have to be of a lasting nature. Unlike the splitting of the sea by Moses (pbuh), which was witnessed only by those who were present during the event, the miracles of the Qur’an can be witnessed over and over by all generations. In other words, the greatest miracles of Islam lie within the Qur’an and can be witnessed by anyone simply by reading the words of God. When the Qur’an was inspired to Mohammad (pbuh), it carried the message that in the eyes of God, there is no difference between an Arab and a non-Arab or a black person and a white person except by his or her fear of Allah and the righteous deeds he or she does. The pagans of Quraish (the tribe living in Makkah at the time of the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) ) chose not to believe that the Qur’ân was from Allah and said that Mohammad had forged it.

They were first challenged to write a book similar to the Qur’an; they could not. Say: “verily if the whole of mankind and the jinns should assemble together to produce the like of this Qur’an, they would not produce the like thereof, Even if they backed up each other with help and support.” [Qur’an, 17:88;Al-Isra’, “Al-Isra”]

Next the challenge was eased to the writing of ten suras (chapters) like the suras of the Qur’an, but they were not able to do it. Or they say: “He [Prophet Mohammad] has forged it [the Qur’an]”. Say: “bring you then ten forged suras like it, and call unto whomsoever you can [to help you], other than Allah, if you are truthful”. So if they answer you not, then know that it [the Qur’an] was only sent down with the knowledge of Allah and that there is no god but Him. So will you be Muslims? [Qur’an, Sura II: 13-14 Hud, “Hud”]

Finally, they were challenged to write just one Surah (chapter) that would pass for a Surah of Allah’s words and still they could not. And if you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down on Our worshiper [Mohammad, peace be upon him], then produce a Surah [chapter] of the like thereof and call your witnesses [supporters and helpers] besides Allah if you are truthful. So if you do it not, and you can never do it,then fear the fire [hell] whose fuel is people and stones that was prepared for the pagans. [Qur’an, 2:23-24; Al-Baqarah, “The Cow”]

And this Qur’an is not such as could ever be invented by other than Allah, but it’s agreement [and confirmation] with that which was before it [the Taurat and the Gospel] and the full explanation of the Book without doubt therein is from the Lord of all that exists. Or do they say “he [Muhammad] has forged it”. Say: “bring then a surah [chapter] like it, and call upon whosoever you can [to help you], besides Allah, if you are truthful.”[Qur’an, 10:37-38; Yunus, “Jonah”]

The extent of this challenge can be appreciated when one realizes that the shortest chapter in the Qur’an (108; Al-kawthar) is only three verses long! What are the rules of this challenge? The answer is simple; the pagans of Quraish who were experts in the art of the word were challenged to write something of the same literary merit as the Qur’an, but they were not able to do it. Yet the challenge was not to write something that would equal the Qur’an only in its literary merit, the challenge was to produce a book that would be an equal to the Qur’an in all aspects. To answer the question of the nature of these other aspects, we must first answer another question: ‘what is the most important attribute that a book truly sent by Allah has to have?’ We are given the answer to this question in the Qur’an: Do they not then ponder on the Qur’an? And had it been from other than Allah, then surely they would have found therein much discrepancies. [Qur’ân, Surah 4:82 Al-Nisa’, “The Women”]

The word ‘discrepancies’ found at the end of this verse is a loose translation of the Arabic word ‘ikhtilaf’, which literally means ‘difference’. If the difference is within the book itself, then it is called a discrepancy (something that contradicts something else within the same book). If the difference is between the book and the outside world as it truly is, not necessarily as our limited knowledge in a certain era tells us it is, then, this difference is called an error. Thus the challenge for us is to bring forth a book that contains truths of a scientific nature not known to us today, a book that one can read 1500 years from today and, discover that indeed it was telling the truth. A book in which not a single word would be proven to be wrong, ever. Despite all that, the pagans of Quraish still insisted that the illiterate Mohammad (pbuh) who was never a writer or a scholar had forged the Qur’an. They accused Mohammad (pbuh) of being a poet, a madman and a soothsayer. Yet could a madman or a poet produce what all of humanity was challenged to replicate and was not able to? Could a soothsayer utter truths of a scientific nature that would only be discovered hundreds of years after his death? Indeed not, and the Qur’an gives an answer to there allegations innumerous verses.

So I swear by whatsoever you see. And by whatsoever you see not. Verily this is the word of an honored messenger. And it is not the word of a poet, little is it that you believe. Nor is it the word of a soothsayer, little is it that you remember. A revelation from the Lord of the Alameen [mankind, Jinns and all that exists]. And if he [Mohammad] had invented some false saying concerning Us [Allah]. We surely would have seized him by his right hand [or with power and might]. And then certainly We would have cut off his life artery. And none of you could have withheld from him [Allah’s wrath].

And verily it [the Qur’an] is a reminder for the Muttaqin [the pious and those whose fear Allah]. And verily We know that there are among those who fear Allah. And verily We know that there are among you some that belie [this Qur’an]. And verily it [the Qur’an] is an anguish for the disbelievers. And verily it is a truth of assured certainty. So glorify the name of your Lord the Most Great. [Qur’an, Sura 69:38-52; Al-Haqqah, “The Sure Reality”]

And you [Mohammad] did not recite before it [the Qur’an] any book, nor did you write it [any book] with your right hand. For then, indeed the followers of falsehood would have doubted. But it is clear revelations in the chests of those who were given knowledge. And none deny our Ayat [proofs, evidences, signs, revelations, etc.] except the unjust. And they said: “if only signs were sent down on him from his Lord.” Say: “Indeed the signs are only with Allah and I am but a clear warner.” Was it not enough for them that We have sent down to you the Book [the Qur’an] which is recited to them. Verily, herein is mercy and a reminder for people who believe. Say: “Sufficient is Allah for a witness between me and you. He knows what is in the heavens and earth. And those who have believed in the Batil [all false deities other than Allah] and disbelieved in Allah, those are the losers.” [Qur’an, 29:48-52; Al-Ankaboot “The Spider”]

And never did We destroy a township, but it had its warners. By way of reminder, and We have never been unjust. And it is not the Shayatin [devils] who have brought it [this Qur’an] down. Neither would it suit them, nor they can [produce it]. Verily, they have been removed far from hearing it. So invoke not with Allah another god lest you be among those who will be punished. [Qur’an, 26:208-213; Al-Shua’ra’, “The Poets”]

Maurice Bucaille wrote in a book titled The Bible, the Qur’an and Science (1978) “The above observation makes the hypothesis advanced by those who see Muhammad as the author of the Qur’an untenable. How could a man, from being illiterate, become the most important author, in terms of literary merits,in the whole of Arabic literature? How could he then pronounce truths of a scientific nature that no other human being could possibly have developed at that time, and all this without once making the slightest error in his pronouncement on the subject?” (p. 125).

Some Proofs from Biology
(1) 1400 years before the invention of the modern microscopes and the science of embryology, Allah gave us in the Qur’an the precise stages through which the human embryo goes in the course of its development: And indeed We created man [Adam] out of an extract of clay. Thereafter We made him as a Nutfah [mixed drops of the male and female sexual discharge] [and lodged it] in a safe lodging [woman’s womb]. Then We made the Nutfah into a leech [or leech-like structure] then We made the leech into a chewed lump, then We made out of the chewed lump bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators. [Qur’an, 23:12-14; Al-Mu’minun, “The Believers”]

Dr. Keith L. Moore (Ph.D., F.I.A.C). The Department of Anatomy, University of Toronto, Canada) commented on these verses in a paper titled “A Scientist’s Interpretation of References to Embryology in the Qur’ân” (The Journal of the Islamic Medical Association, Vol. 18, Jan-Jun 1986, pp. 15-16): “The zygote forms by the union of a mixture of the sperm and the ovum (“The mixed drop!”). The word “alaqah” refers to a leech or bloodsucker. This is an appropriate description of the human embryo from days 7-24 when it clings to the endometrium of the uterus, in the same way that a leech clings to the skin. Just as the leech derives blood from the host, the human embryo derives blood from the decidua or pregnant endometrium. It is remarkable how much the embryo of 23-24 days resembles a leech. As there were no microscopes or lenses available in the 7th century, doctors would not have known that the human embryo had this leech-like appearance. In the early part of the fourth week, the embryo is just visible to the unaided eye because it is smaller than a kernel of wheat. The Arabic word “mudghah” means “chewed substance or chewed lump.” Toward the end of the fourth week, the human embryo looks somewhat like a chewed lump of flesh. The chewed appearance results from the somites which resemble teeth marks. The somites represent the beginnings or primordia of the vertebrae… Out of the chewed lump stage, bones and muscles form. This is in accordance with embryological development. First the bones form as cartilage models and then the muscles (flesh) develop around them from the somatic mesoderm.”

(2) Allah also states in the Qur’an the correct order in which the senses of hearing, seeing and understanding develop: And He gave you hearing and sight and feeling and understanding. [Qur’an, 32:9; Al-Sajdah, “The Prostration”]

Dr. Keith L. Moore comments on these verses in the same paper mentioned above saying: “The primordia of the internal ears appear before the beginning of the eyes, and the brain (the site of understanding) differentiates last.”

(3) We know that life cannot exist without water. That is why when scientists search for life anywhere, even on other planets such as Mars, the first thing they look for is evidence of the existence of water. Allah stated the fact that all living things are made of water in the Qur’an. And Allah has created every moving [living] creature from water. From them is that which goes on its belly, and from them is that which walks on two feet, and from them is that which walks on four. Allah creates what He wills. Verily Allah is able to do all things. [Qur’an, 24:45; Al-Nour, “The Light”]

(4) It is now known that mammary glands secrete milk. The mammary glands are nourished by the products of food digestion in the intestines brought to them by the bloodstream. The fact that it is the blood that transfers nutrients from the intestines to the rest of the body was discovered only recently. The mere fact that blood circulates within the body was discovered about many centuries after the revelation of the Qur’an. And verily in cattle there is a lesson for you. We give you to drink of what is within their bellies, from between excretions [the contents of the intestine] and blood, pure milk; palatable to the drinkers. [Qur’an, 16:66;Al-Nahl, “The Bees”]

Some Proofs from History
(1) There is a city that was mentioned in the Qur’an by the name of Iram. Up until 1975, this city was thought by many non-Muslims to be a mere myth since no mention of it was ever made in any known writings. In 1975 another city by the name of Ibla was unearthed in Syria. In some of the tablets found in the city of Ibla, the name of the city of Iram was mentioned for the first time as a place that used to trade with the city of Ibla. Subsequently, using space photography from the space shuttle, the city of Iram was found in the vicinity of Aden. Then behold! The appearance of this city was exactly as it was described in the Qur’an as a city built with towering pillars: Did you [O Mohammad] not see how your Lord dealt with [the tribe of] Aad ? [the city of] Iram with lofty pillars. The like of which was not created in the lands. Qur’an, 89:6-8; Al-Fajr “The Dawn”]

(2) Since the 18th Egyptian dynasty, all of the ancient rulers of Egypt called themselves Pharaohs. The name initially meant the “great house” which is what the ancient Egyptians called the house of their ruler. Beginning with the 18th dynasty, the name was used to designate the king himself. In the early 17th century BC, Egypt was invaded by the Hyksos, who occupied Egypt until prince Ahmos the first finally freed the country from their grasp in 1570 BC. After Egypt was free, the Egyptians systematically destroyed and altered all the monuments built by the Hyksos. That is why the only remnants of the Hyksos invaders is poorly preserved in scarce inscriptions, sculpture and pottery. A somewhat incomplete knowledge of the Hyksos has only become available recently after extensive research. One of the things we came to learn about the Hyksos from this research was that they did not call themselves Pharaohs, but they called themselves kings. In all of the stories in the Qur’an related to Egypt, when God speaks of the ruler of Egypt, He always calls him ‘Pharaoh’, except in a single story; the story of Prophet Joseph (pbuh), where He calls him ‘the king’. Modern history scholars believe that this is because the ruler of Egypt at the time of Prophet Joseph (pbuh) was Apophis a Hyksos king. And the king said: “bring him to me that I may attach him to my person.” Then, when he spoke to him he said: “Verily, you are today with us with rank fully established and trustworthy.” [Qur’an, 12:54; Youssef, “Joseph”]

(3) Allah says in the Qur’an: And We took the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh and his hosts followed them in oppression and enmity, till when drowning overtook him [Pharaoh], he said: “I believe that there is no god but He in whom the Children of Israel have believed, and I am from the Muslims.” Now [you believe] while you have rebelled before and been among the evil-doers. So today We save you in your [dead] body, that you may be a sign to those who come after you. And verily, many among mankind are indeed heedless of Our Ayah [proofs, evidence, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, …etc.). [Qur’an, 10:90-92; Yunus, “Jonah”] Thus Allah says that the body of Pharaoh was not taken by the sea so that Pharaoh may become a sign to those who come after him. Dr. Bucaille conducted research to verify this Qur’ânic story: “in June 1975, the Egyptian high authorities very kindly allowed me to examine the parts of the Pharaoh’s body that had been covered until then. They also allowed me to take photographs. What may already be derived from this examination is the discovery of multiple lesions of the bones with broad lacunae, some of which may have been mortal although it is not yet possible to ascertain whether some of them occurred before or after the Pharaoh’s death. He most probably died either from drowning, according to the scriptural narrations, or from very violent shocks preceding the moment when he was drowned or both at once. Those who seek among modern data for proof of the veracity of the Holy Scriptures will find a magnificent illustration of the verses of the Qur’an dealing with Pharaoh’s body by visiting the Royal Mummies room of the Egyptian Museum, Cairo!” [The Bible, The Qur’an and Science (1978)]

Some Proofs from Astronomy
Let us first have a short introduction about the formation and nature of the stars and planets based upon our modern knowledge and understanding. It is a well known fact that all the stars within any given galaxy as well as their planets are formed from an initial cloud of gas. When that cloud condenses due to gravitational forces it starts to rotate causing hydrogen and helium atoms; its lighter constituents, to be present in higher proportions towards the center of the cloud, thus forming the star. The heavier constituents on the other hand form planets at larger radii due to the centrifugal effect. The star is luminescent because of the nuclear reactions therein while the planets can only be luminescent if they reflect the star’s light that is incident on their surface. Each planet in a given solar system floats in space in a prescribed orbit. Furthermore, the star of the solar system itself floats in an orbit around the center of its galaxy. It is truly amazing that the Qur’an actually gives a clear mention to some of these facts.

(1) Concerning the facts that the heavens (galaxies and stars) and earth were both initially made of the same mixture of materials, then part of that material was put into the earth, and the fact that the sun and moon each float in space in a prescribed orbit, Allah says in surat Al-Anbiya’: Did those who disbelieve not see that the heavens and earth were joined together as one piece, then We parted them? And We have made from water everything that is alive. Will they not then believe? And We have placed on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with them and We have placed therein broad roads [for them to pass through], that they may be guided. And We have made the sky as a roof, well protected. Yet they turn away from its signs. And it is He who has created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon, each in an orbit they float. [Qur’an, 21:30-33, Al-Anbiya’, “The Prophets”]

(2) Concerning the initial formation of the universe and all its galaxies and solar systems, God refers in the Qur’an to the fact that the heavens and earth were brought forth from an initial cloud of gas referred to as smoke which is an accurate description of the appearance of this semi-transparent cloud made of molecules suspended in space. Allah says in the Qur’an: Then He Istawa [rose over in a way only known to Allah] towards the heaven while it was smoke, then He said to it and the earth: “come forth both of you willingly or unwillingly.” They both said: “We come, in willing obedience.” [Qur’an, 41:1 1; Fussilat, “Explained in Detail”]

(3) While the sun is the source of light for its solar system, the moon and the planets do no more than reflect that light. When Allah speaks in the Quran about the light of the sun, He refers to the sun as a lantern, or a shining source of light. On the other hand, when He speaks of the moon, He speaks of it only as ‘lighted’ which means that it takes its light from an external source. It is He who made the sun shining and the moon lighted and measured out its stages, that you may know the number of years and the count [of time]. Allah did not create this except in truth. He explains the Ayah [proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, miracles, etc.] in detail for people who have knowledge. [Qur’an, 10:5; Yunus, “Jonath”]

In surat Al-Naml, Allah gives a clear description of the movement of the earth: And you see the mountains, you think them solid [and stationary], when they pass as the passing of the clouds, The making of Allah, Who has perfected everything. Verily, He is well-acquainted with what you do. [Qur’an, 27:88; Al-Naml, “The Ants”]

This verse is truly amazing! It gives a vivid description of the constant movement of the earth. Let us dwell a little on what this verse has to say. First it says that the mountains that we think of as being stationary are actually passing. Then it gives the analogy of the passing of the clouds. One might ask; in which way the passing of the mountains is similar to the passing of the clouds? The answer is: like the clouds pass because of the movement of the medium in which they are (the air), the mountains also pass because of the movement of the earth on which they are placed. Furthermore, notice the accuracy of using the word ‘pass’ which implies movement in a constant direction as opposed to the word ‘move’ which can imply changing or random movement to accurately describe the scene one would behold if he or she was to rise high above the earth and observe, while being stationary, the mountains below.

(5) Allah also gave reference to the circular motion associated with the night and day in the Qur’an: He has created the heavens and the earth with truth. He coils the night on the day and He coils the day on the night. And He has subjected the sun and the moon. Each follows a course for an appointed term. Verily, He is the All-Mighty, the Oft-Forgiving. [Qur’an, 39:5; Al- Zumar, “The Groups”]

(6) Only recently, was it discovered that the universe is in a constant state of expansion. This was observed indirectly through the Doppler effect which states that the light spectrum emitted by an object moving away from an observer would shift towards a higher wavelength. This fact was clearly stated in the Qur’an: And the heaven, We have built it with power and verily We are expanding it, [Qur’an, 51:47; Al-Zariat, “The Winds”]

This is the Book [the Qur’an] whereof there is no doubt, a guidance to those who fear Allah. Who believe in the unseen, and establish the prayer, and from what We have provided for them they spend. And who believe in what has been sent down to you and what has been sent down before you and of the hereafter they are certain. These are on guidance from their Lord, and those are the successful. [Qur’an, 2:2-5; Al-Baqarah, “The Cow”]


I hope it helped.

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Take it easy.


V~V~VHe came, He saw, He conqueredV~V~V**


----*High Priest-OF-Church-OF-Painful Truth*----

Roman, may be you can and I can, we both can accept religion, on the basis of faith. I know I do, but humans by nature do not accept anything and everything they are told, without questioning. And I would like to think that the religion in which I so completely believe has some legs to stand on. So, when the non-believers question it’s legitimacy, we are not left staring into thin air.

The thing about Islam is, it proves itself again and again. I have read about the religion I believe in as to understand it, I do not claim to understand like an expert or scholar of Islam, but I do to some extent. Since, Islam is prove able, people of the other religions can be showed that the true religion or Allah’s religion is only Islam.

Look at watcher’s excellent post for some of the proofs. If Islam is unable to prove itself then, it is the same way as any other theory. So, if I expect people of the other religion to believe in my religion without any proof, then how can I not believe theirs?

As far as thinking outside or inside my box is concerned, then I can see how you would not understand it. Once you have understood Islam, then you will realize that it’s not just a collection of haphazard rules, but a way of life. A way of life, prescribed by the creator himself. I am posting a ayat from Quran, combine that with watcher’s post, plus the link I am posting, provide enough proof for even a blind to see that the Quran is the word of Allah.

“Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together [ratqan], before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing… [Qur’aan 21:30]”

This is your big bang theory for you, earth and heavens were separated by a big bang, told to you 1400 years ago, by the holy Quran. I don’t know if the scientists who later came up with the big bang theory, plagiarized it from the holy Quran or they came up with it themselves.

And here is the link http://www.it-is-truth.org/frame.htm

Now, in the light of all these proof, if someone wants to keep their eyes and minds and hearts closed then I consider then very narrow minded and backward. These people are not thinking and researching for themselves, but doing what their forefathers did, i.e. hating Islam, because they are not ready to accept that their forefathers followed the wrong path.


[This message has been edited by purana_zamana (edited December 15, 2000).]

Roman, may be you can and I can, we both can accept religion, on the basis of faith. I know I do, but humans by nature do not accept anything and everything they are told, without questioning. And I would like to think that the religion in which I so completely believe has some legs to stand on. So, when the non-believers question it’s legitimacy, we are not left staring into thin air.

Right, and so do the non-believers. Rationalization has various desciplines and approaches towards the understanding of underlying faith and belief. If religion could be that factual conclusion, you won't see so many diverse religions in the world.

Everybody is free to use his/her own rationalization. You use it for Islam, others use it for athiesm but the dominating factor in both cases must be that one must be allowed to choose freely, whatever it is. You can reject a theory but you cannot deny its existence. And if you cannot look eye to eye at the opposing argument/theory, you cannot claim strong belief in your own theory because you are too afraid that it might change your mind on something.

I find your argument inherently flawed. You are assuming that Islam cannot be justified to others or it will not stand a scrutiny by the opposing camp. You are assuming that the followers of Islam justify Islam among themselves and then jump up and down gleefully like little children. You are assuming that the followers of Islam are not free to debate the legitimacy of their religion and are not free to make their choice.

You are right in saying that anything can be rationalized, but have you forgotten that it cannot be rationalized to everyone. And how can I even reach the conclusion that Islam is right, if I don’t hear out the opposing views? One, cannot declare something true or right or justified, unless the opposing scenarios have been looked at and you are assuming that I have not done that.

In between somewhere you will have to leave room for the kind of people for who will upon seeing the truth, will still not accept it, since they have already made up their minds that they will not believe the truth.

Having said all that, let me inform you that a lot of Muslim scholars have standing offers to any scholar or expert of the any other faith, to come and debate which religion is right. Yes, the Muslims believe that their religion is right; the Hindus believe their religion is right and the same goes for every religion in this world. But, the only way to settle this debate is for all the parties to present their case and see who is right. But, there is no law that will force all parties to do so, and they must do it by their own free will, or not at all, if that’s what they choose. And, that’s what most of them have chosen to do. There are only 1.5 billion Muslims in the world out of a population of may be close to 5 billion. Out of fear of being proven wrong? I don’t know, but it’s their right and they have exercised it. They have decided by their own free will that they will follow these beliefs and are doing it. So have the Muslims, they are Muslims, because they choose to be. The only difference is that Muslims are willing to put the legitimacy of their beliefs against any religion, and the others are not.

So, I don't know whom you are referring to, when you are saying that someone has not been able to choose by their own free will? Making abstract statement, may make a good philosophy book, but philosophy does not prove anything conclusively and fools very few nowadays with it's mumbo jumbo.

If, Muslims had any doubt about their beliefs or fears of changing their minds, they would not be so open about debate. Now, it will be a shock, if they are proven wrong in a debate, since they believe so completely in their Islam, but it has not happened. They have been proven right at every turn and it will continue to happen.

Now we can debate free will and the Freudian meaning of it in religious surroundings, but it would be a waste of time. People believe what the want to belief; the scary thing is that the basis of their beliefs is so shaky that they are not willing to put it to test, by their own free will. One has to wonder are they fooling themselves by closing their eyes to the fact, but hey as you pointed out, it’s their own free will. You may choose to not accept the facts, but that does not change the facts, hence, the word fact.

Quote>>>>>Right, and so do the non-believers. Rationalization has various desciplines and approaches towards the understanding of underlying faith and belief. If religion could be that factual conclusion, you won't see so many diverse religions in the world.
Everybody is free to use his/her own rationalization. You use it for Islam, others use it for athiesm but the dominating factor in both cases must be that one must be allowed to choose freely, whatever it is. You can reject a theory but you cannot deny its existence. And if you cannot look eye to eye at the opposing argument/theory, you cannot claim strong belief in your own theory because you are too afraid that it might change your mind on something

[This message has been edited by purana_zamana (edited December 15, 2000).]

nah man, we both are talking on two different wavelenghths. You are assuming that I'm assuming, and you bringing in Islam while I am not talking about any specific religion (although I used Islam as an example once) but my account was totally referring to Religion as in Religion, not religion as in Islam.

The point of the whole thing was that if you rationalize Islam and believe in and post long necessary posts on it then Astrofan can do the same, just for the different faith and belief, and yet his post won't be unnecessary as you so divinely declared.

On the question of which religion is right and which is wrong, answer is that the question is fundamentally wrong. To each his own belief. You can declare others kafir all that you want, that still doesn't qualify your religion to be superior to others in terms of a common denominator acceptable to the whole spectrum of religions ever conceived in the history of mankind and gods.

[quote]
Originally posted by astrosfan:
**hk,

Does it make you a better person? Does it make the world around you a better place? Does such knowledge fill a hole in the heart that otherwise burns with desire? Does it inspire a person to help those around you?

Is knowledge of the creator a fundamental necessity to live?

**
[/quote]

yes, yes, and yes. No one's perfect but,as a Muslim, my answer (or any Muslim's)to all these questions would be yes without a doubt.


"Amor Fati"

totally agree

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“Amor Fati”