Wear a HIJAB ?? Why shud i ???

Society Religion & Philosophy
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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadzzz: *

MQ, thats ur interpretation yeah? what u think is classified as beauty, may be completely different to somenoe else... a lot of people find the face quite attractive... then wouldnt u say, that a proper hijabi should also be covering the entire face?

[/QUOTE]

Ofcourse thats what I believe , I never said otherwise.Actually the ayah seems to be talking about physical beauty.Or attractiveness.Sadzz thats why I mentioned nikab.That to me even somebodys eyes and face are very beautiful.But you see thats why some females wear a burkah and nikab.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadzzz: *
i tried not takign offense to this, but i am. Ur indirectly stating that my nani ma wasnt practising Islam properly.. and i think thats quite a big judgement on ur part. She dressed modestly and spoke with manners.. and i think in her mind she practised Islam quite well.. may Allah Mian bless her soul
[/QUOTE]

May Allah give your naani a place in jannah ameen.I meant no such thing sadzz.I never said your naani wasnt following Islam properly.She was doing exactly what she thought Islam was asking of her.Like I said your naani did dupata, while mine did hijab.Its how far they are following their faith.Keep in mind that yes it ALL DEPENDS on what they believe they must do.How far one will go depends on how far ONE THINKS he/she has to go.Lets not get carried away.I would rather cut my right arm off then accuse your naani of any such thing.In case you werent aware of it , I respect anybodys elders (esp grandparents) like my own.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadzzz: *
covering "properly" is different to different people MQ. Where I prayed in uni, all us girls dressed and prayed different. Some girls wore gloves while praying.. some just a simple dupatta.. not one person condemned another.. and pointed out that so and so was praying wrong..
[/QUOTE]

Actually sadzz some of my own friends pray while their hair is showing or even in jeans.I have pointed out to them that proper coverings are important.I did not force or judge them.Allah is going to decide about their prayers not myself.But I see no harm in speaking to them about it.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadzzz: *
no, i have a feeling.. noone is listening to one another.. can u ever state and believe that a woman not wearing a scarf can actually be a decent and blessed muslimah? i doubt it... .
[/QUOTE]

Yes a woman wearing a hijab can be a decent and blessed Muslimah.So can a woman who does not wear a hijab.

I dont recall the hadith, but there was a woman once who did not pray nor was decent.However, she fed a thirsty dog one time and enetered Jannah.So Allah knows best.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by sadzzz: *
we are trying to keep an open mind and heart, but when things like *As for your naani, what can I say , somebody elses naani might have done a niqaab.Depends on people and how far they will go to make sure they are following Quranic ayahs correctly. get mentioned.. i think it gets quite personal
[/QUOTE]

You took it personally.I said it before and I will say it again, it does depend on how far one will go to follow Quranic ayahs.You naani wore dupatta , my friends naani wore niqab all her life.It boils down to how far one will go when following a faith.

Its not that some people do MORE and others do LESS, it matter that some people go FAR and others go FURTHER.The fact that one goes further, does not make them right.It all depends on what they believe.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadzzz: *
b/w does flirting, dressing attractively, being hurtful defeat the purpose of the surah you posted?
[/QUOTE]

Im sure you know that one cant abandon the rest of the Quran and live based on just one Surah.Hope that answers your question.

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And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their adornment except what is apparent of it, and to **extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs),* and not to display their adornment except to their husbands... *

Well, I took an excerpt from the ayat and it very clearly says that head needs to be covered. I don't see any confusion or room for wrong interpretation. :-)

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u dont need to apologise MQ. What im trying to state is that hijab or non hijab, niqab or no niqab does not mean that one is FURTHER in their practice that another human being..

wearing a hijab as opposed to a duppatta, in ur eyes may be practising faith further.. but to me its quite equal.

What I wanna know is, if pakistani hijab wearing girls were raised in pak, would they still be wearing the hijab as it is they wear in US, UK or wherever? No.. i hardly doubt it.

Do you think the entire poppulation of Bangladesh is not practising Islam as much as lets say the poppulation in the middle east who mostly wear the whole gown? The point is, the dress sense, modesty, decency is dependant on society and where u r... the Quran has not defined the length of a dupatta, the tightness of jeans or a top.. its society!

and i do disagree with u with telling friends or strangers what they should be wearing when praying. For me, if i am in jeans, i will pray.. cus its my intention and my neeyat that matters... at times at work ive forgotten my dupatta and have simple tied a jacket or top around my head.. ofcourse my arms were not covered, but neeyat to pray mattered.. no?

neways... no need to apologise for the comment about my nani ma..

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but Fayz, ive seen that ayah written in so many different ways.. :konfused:

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadzzz: *
but Fayz, ive seen that ayah written in so many different ways..

[/QUOTE]

Really :-) Please do share if you come across a different translation of the same ayat. I would be very much interested in reading it.

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^ i was just bout to find it for u :) actually i have a number of Qurans at home.. and each one varies. Soem have the urdu translation and some english...

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Hey Fayz, I've just found 3 different wordings of the same ayah :) now im not saying that i am right and u r wrong.. or anyone else for that matter.. what im trying to say is that, the same ayah has sooo many different translations.. but the message is depicts is one.. which is of modesty and decency :)

*
And enjoin believing women to keep their eyes downcast and protect their rectitude and not to flaunt their ornaments except those that are visible, and to keep their chests covered with an over cloth and do not display their embellishment to anyone except their husbands, or their fathers, or their husbands' fathers, or their sons, or sons of their husbands, or their brothers, or their nephews, or sons of their sisters, or other believing women, or maids whom they possess, or impotent menservants, or children who are not yet conscious of feminine nakedness. And let them not thump their feet so as to attract attention to their hidden ornaments. Turn to Allah together with due compunction, O believers, so that you may attain salvation!

" And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary. They shall cover their chests, and shall not relax this code in the presence of other than their husbands, their fathers, the fathers of their husbands, their sons, the sons of their husbands, their brothers, the sons of their brothers, the sons of their sisters, other women, the male servants or employees who lack the defining skills of men (or, alternatively: who lack male desires etc.) , or the children who have not reached puberty. ...........] " (Surah 24:31)

"And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts etc)". [Sûrah 24:31]

*

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fayz: *
Well, I took an excerpt from the ayat and it very clearly says that head needs to be covered. I don't see any confusion or room for wrong interpretation. :-)
[/QUOTE]

yes.. only if you assume that khimar is "head covering".. the literal meaning is just "cover".. any cover. There is NO mention of head or hair in the verse... however the translator can add all the bracketed text as they please to make it mean anything they'd like you to believe.

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^ well pointed out

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Thanks Sadzz

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
yes.. only if you assume that *khimar is "head covering".. the literal meaning is just "cover".. any cover. There is NO mention of head or hair in the verse... however the translator can add all the bracketed text as they please to make it mean anything they'd like you to believe.
[/QUOTE]

I see...Are Russians translating these verses into English? :-)

Another question. I looked at the three translations and couldn't decipher the following words

Apparent, Visible and Necessary

...and not to display their adornment except what is **apparent* of it....

...and not to flaunt their ornaments except those that are visible,...

....They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is necessary.
*
What is apparent, visible and necessary?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadzzz: *
u dont need to apologise MQ. What im trying to state is that hijab or non hijab, niqab or no niqab does not mean that one is FURTHER in their practice that another human being..

wearing a hijab as opposed to a duppatta, in ur eyes may be practising faith further.. but to me its quite equal.
[/QUOTE]

Actually sadzz I beg to differ.Those that wear niqab are doing more than me -hijab.In "my" opinions.They are ensuring that they do as much as possible when it comes to protecting their beauty and keeping it only for their husbands.

Chaddar,hijab,duppatta, its all just a basic covering.So long as its not transparent it is only one thing.A covering for the head.Hijab is just a widely used term.I wear a dupatta sometimes thats not transparent, and I wrap it around sort of like a hijab.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadzzz: *
What I wanna know is, if pakistani hijab wearing girls were raised in pak, would they still be wearing the hijab as it is they wear in US, UK or wherever? No.. i hardly doubt it.
[/QUOTE]

What do you mean? Many people were raised there, yet they didnt change their code of dress when they came here - their hijab stayed...you're saying that a Pakistani girl will wear it whereas if shes in the UK etc she wont?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadzzz: *
Do you think the entire poppulation of Bangladesh is not practising Islam as much as lets say the poppulation in the middle east who mostly wear the whole gown? The point is, the dress sense, modesty, decency is dependant on society and where u r... the Quran has not defined the length of a dupatta, the tightness of jeans or a top.. its society!

[/QUOTE]

Actualy sadzz Bengalis are very into modest dressing.We're not talking whether one population is better because they wear a different sort of outfit, hijab is something not reserved for only Middle Easterners.Ofcourse its not dependent on soceity - its all about what YOU want to do.Im the only one of my friends who often wears shalvar kameez to university....if I were to go along with "society" I would not be doing do.But in every society ,there is always a personal choice.

As for length of a dupatta Im not su sure, but tightness of jeans have definately been mentioned in Hadith and so forth.There is a major issue of tight clothing...if it reveals the shape ofthe body it should be avoided.

(1) Women must not dress so as to appear as men. "Ibn Abbas narrated: 'The Prophet (S) cursed the men who appear like women and the women who appear like men.'" (Bukhari)

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sadzzz: *

and i do disagree with u with telling friends or strangers what they should be wearing when praying. For me, if i am in jeans, i will pray.. cus its my intention and my neeyat that matters... at times at work ive forgotten my dupatta and have simple tied a jacket or top around my head.. ofcourse my arms were not covered, but neeyat to pray mattered.. no?

neways... no need to apologise for the comment about my nani ma..
[/QUOTE]

But why shouldnt I tell them? Then if we take that stand then you have no right telling me you disagree.The point is it is my farz to teach what little I know, after that I have done my job, and the rest is up to them.If we were able to pray in jeans without a hijab or with revealing clothes, then we'd all be doing that in Mecca or Mednina- at hajj.But we dont...hmm..I wonder why.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

yes.. only if you assume that khimar is "head covering".. the literal meaning is just "cover".. any cover. There is NO mention of head or hair in the verse...
[/quote]

So if i say to someone, "Put your hat on," i have to also mention head and hair in my instructions so they understand what part of the body i'm asking them to cover?? If i say, "Put your socks on," do i have to mention feet and toes as well? I'm presuming when the verse was revealed everyone just forgot that khimars were also known as head coverings... look up the meaning in any dictionary of classical Arabic such as Lisan al Arab or Qamoos al Muhit and invariably the first meaning under khimar will be 'female head covering' or 'head covering' in general as in the commentaries since the male turban can and is also referred to as al-khimar...

[quote]
however the translator can add all the bracketed text as they please to make it mean anything they'd like you to believe.
[/QUOTE]

SHAKIR: "... and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms" (24:31)

I don't see any brackets. Do you?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Fayz: *
Apparent, Visible and Necessary

What is apparent, visible and necessary?
[/QUOTE]

When the Qur'an doesn't stipulate limits, it's leaving it upto the reader to determine. The message for us is here not to get extremist about covering up women..Even after this dress code some things would remain visible. (note that rules out full length tamboos i see hijabans in)

Allah has left us the clues that whatever is necessary for women to function as an individual, can be left open. To be able to use their hands.. see from their eyes, smell, or talk .. so these have been exempted.

What would be apparent is the shape of a female body.. even if you cover your chest with a covering.. the curves would still be there.

[quote]
ook up the meaning in any dictionary of classical Arabic such as Lisan al Arab or Qamoos al Muhit and invariably the first meaning under khimar will be 'female head covering' or 'head covering'
[/quote]

this selective reference to period of revelation is interesting. There is nothing in the verse that stipulates a "head covering".
The stress is on covering the chest. One could easily take off their "head covering" and use it to cover their chest and be within the limits prescribed by the verse.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

The stress is on covering the chest. One could easily take off their "head covering" and use it to cover their chest and be within the limits prescribed by the verse.
[/QUOTE]

So a girl wearing a two piece bikini would still be considered covered?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

this selective reference to period of revelation is interesting. There is nothing in the verse that stipulates a "head covering".
[/quote]

Yes there is... khimar.

SHAKIR: "... and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms" (24:31)

Hey, and he didn't even need brackets!

[quote]
The stress is on covering the chest.
[/quote]

Exactly! Because the head covering didn't ordinarily cover the chest (the habit was to tie it behind the neck or back and leave the bosom uncovered), so the verse stressed that the head covering should drop down to the bosom as well... the head doesn't need to be mentioned because it is included within the term khimar as everyone would have known...

[quote]
One could easily take off their "head covering" and use it to cover their chest and be within the limits prescribed by the verse.
[/QUOTE]

So now it does mean head covering!? Interesting take on the verse though... a verse that talks about "covering" actually means uncovering one part of the body so the same garment can be used to cover another part! Huh!?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *So a girl wearing a two piece bikini would still be considered covered?
[/QUOTE]

would that be modest? don't forget the basic dress code here.

and gupguppy.. i was only showing how forcing just one translation of "head covering" opens up the issue of whether it's to be taken as 'extending' the dress already worn or using these "head covering" to cover what's required instead.

If you wish to force the "head covering" meaning by referring to cultural practices of that time then all such rulings in the Qur'an are open to interpretations within the context of the perid of revelation only and the message no longer remains universal and timeless.

Thus killing mushrikeens or not taking them as 'protectors' only applied to that period of political unstability and to those particular mushriks or Jews/Christians.. catch my drift?

btw as someone in this thread pointed out.. u shouldn't go further than the "ahram" worn at hajj time to realize what God intended for us as dress code.. what to cover and what not..

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
gupguppy.. i was only showing how forcing just one translation of "head covering" opens up the issue of whether it's to be taken as 'extending' the dress already worn or using these "head covering" to cover what's required instead.
[/quote]

Yes, let's "open up" every ridiculously sounding attempt at straw clutching such as this one where Allah begins the verse by allowing for that which is already apparently visible and then instructs yet more to be made apparent by having head coverings removed so the same garment can be used to cover bosoms...

[quote]
If you wish to force the "head covering" meaning by referring to cultural practices of that time then all such rulings in the Qur'an are open to interpretations within the context of the perid of revelation only and the message no longer remains universal and timeless.
[/quote]

Like you said in the other thread, "The Qur'an uses certain words when they are necessary.". Why do you think it was necessary here to use a word that was already being used to mean head covering (both for females and males)?

The argument that the Qur'an somehow loses its "universal and timeless" quality if khimar is taken to mean head covering (as it should be) is laughable to say the least. Despite you having convinced yourself otherwise, the Qur'an wasn't revealed in a vacuum. The fact that a Qur'anic injunction might match something already in place within a community doesn't render the injunction a "cultural practice", especially in this instance where the already existing practice was bettered.

[quote]
btw as someone in this thread pointed out.. u shouldn't go further than the "ahram" worn at hajj time to realize what God intended for us as dress code.. what to cover and what not..
[/QUOTE]

And what does God instruct us to wear at Hajj time?

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okies.. why do i feel like a 5yr old suddenly?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *

Actually sadzz I beg to differ.Those that wear niqab are doing more than me -hijab.In "my" opinions.They are ensuring that they do as much as possible when it comes to protecting their beauty and keeping it only for their husbands.

Chaddar,hijab,duppatta, its all just a basic covering.So long as its not transparent it is only one thing.A covering for the head.Hijab is just a widely used term.I wear a dupatta sometimes thats not transparent, and I wrap it around sort of like a hijab.

[/quote]

again.. what was the apology for when ur simply saying the same thing again and insulting someone whose wearing a dupatta instead of a cloth that hides the hair? ur saying the same thing..

having said that.. to YOU the dupatta is just a basic covering and nikab is way more.. thats YOUR understanding MQ.. and im fine with that.. but to state that the dupatta is or chaddar is basically not proper (i know u didnt say that.. but thats what im hearing).. i find that wrong

[quote]

What do you mean? Many people were raised there, yet they didnt change their code of dress when they came here - their hijab stayed...you're saying that a Pakistani girl will wear it whereas if shes in the UK etc she wont?

[/quote]

no, i meant the other way round... do u think a hijab wearing girl in UK would be wearing a hijab in pakistan... and no MQ, most people do change depending on where they are.. not all.. bust most do

[quote]

Actualy sadzz Bengalis are very into modest dressing.We're not talking whether one population is better because they wear a different sort of outfit, hijab is something not reserved for only Middle Easterners.Ofcourse its not dependent on soceity - its all about what YOU want to do.Im the only one of my friends who often wears shalvar kameez to university....if I were to go along with "society" I would not be doing do.But in every society ,there is always a personal choice.

[/quote]

hello?! when and where did i say that bengalis do not dress modestly?? i NEVER even meant that... what i said was that there are differences in culture... u interpreted that completely wrong

MQ, i wear shilwar kameez all the time too.. i go to the shops.. i dont wear a hijab.. so does that make us equal now??

[quote]

As for length of a dupatta Im not su sure, but tightness of jeans have definately been mentioned in Hadith and so forth.There is a major issue of tight clothing...if it reveals the shape ofthe body it should be avoided.

(1) Women must not dress so as to appear as men. "Ibn Abbas narrated: 'The Prophet (S) cursed the men who appear like women and the women who appear like men.'" (Bukhari)

[/quote]

okies... so how does this apply to men in the middle east who wear those lnog shirts down to their ankles and wear a hijab like cloth on their head? are they not immitating women? should women then start wearing jeans there in order to differentiate themselves from the men?

[quote]

But why shouldnt I tell them? Then if we take that stand then you have no right telling me you disagree.The point is it is my farz to teach what little I know, after that I have done my job, and the rest is up to them.If we were able to pray in jeans without a hijab or with revealing clothes, then we'd all be doing that in Mecca or Mednina- at hajj.But we dont...hmm..I wonder why.
[/QUOTE]

cus u never know that they may also be right in the eyes of Allah Mian... whose a better judge? u or Allah Mian? Telling someone that they are nto wearing the right clothes or not praying properly is not my job.. cus their neeyat and love for Allah Mian may be far more greater than mine..

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In the Qur'an, Allah commands Muslims to inform those who are doing wrong.

The Qur'an refers to this as:

**The male and female believers are friends of one another. They command what is right and forbid what is wrong, perform prayer and pay alms, and obey Allah and His Messenger. They are the people on whom Allah will have mercy. Allah is Almighty, All-Wise. (Qur'an, 9:71)

They believe in Allah and the Last Day, enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and compete in doing good. They are among the righteous. (Qur'an, 3:114)

Those who repent, those who worship, those who praise, those who fast, those who bow, those who prostrate, those who command the right, those who forbid the wrong, and those who preserve the limits of Allah: give good news to the believers. (Qur'an, 9:112)**

Let me know if you still dont believe so. And next time maybe it would be better if family members were kept out of the discussion.We dont want you to get upset again.

(ps I lived in the west all my life.It didnt make a difference to my hijab or my way of dressing.A simple example.)