Re: We shall overrun: The young, urban, middle-class Pakistani’s manifesto
As someone said "Extremist on the other side".
He is the same guy who wrote an article about a HUGE problem Pakistanis have of using "Inshallah", "Mashallah" without reason. According to him, why bring GOD in everything???
As someone said "Extremist on the other side". He is the same guy who wrote an article about a HUGE problem Pakistanis have of using "Inshallah", "Mashallah" without reason. According to him, why bring GOD in everything???
:D
what do we expect from some crackpot? he can live in his ganjaland and travel to ethiopia in his dreams with Ras Tafaria!
Re: We shall overrun: The young, urban, middle-class Pakistani’s manifesto
Hey according to these two Zaid Hamid is an extremist. But Mr. NFP is not. Odd I guess birds of a feather flock together.
Actually no. Consider it anecdotal as well as a desire to see what the common man on the street thinks of these parties. After all the support these parties have received is minimal in a majority of cases. And more specifically there was a great deal of dissatisfaction when these groups were in power.
So is PTI an extremist party then? How about Tehreek i Istaqlal?
[quote]
Just because you can't read it on Dawn while sitting in the West doesn't mean it is not true.
[/quote]
Lets cut the sitting from the West crap. I wager you've spent less of your adult or formative life in Pakistan. I dont even know that you got your education in Pakistan unless it was some yuppie entitled school like Froebels or Beachonhouse where you might as well be sitting in Colorado.
So lets hear it Mr. Pakistani. Tell us about your background.
As someone said "Extremist on the other side". He is the same guy who wrote an article about a HUGE problem Pakistanis have of using "Inshallah", "Mashallah" without reason. According to him, why bring GOD in everything???
it's good to try and understand the background and context of something. NFP's point was and generally is how Pakistan has changed since Zia's time. that is generally the theme of those types of articles he writes.
and if you were old enough you would also know that. but if you grew up in Zia's time like I did, you won't remember/know what he is talking about. all I remember is dupattas, etc on PTV. in those days you would have never imagined a Pakistani girl on TV without dupatta or wearing pants. the Pakistan the previous generation grew up in was very different from ours.
but ask your parents and even they will tell you how the culture changed when Zia came. Pakistan wasn't always like this. and people didn't use Inshallah and Mashallah as liberally and continuously as they do now. and of course, there is that Allah Hafiz and Khuda Hafiz debate as well where now you actually will be told to use Allah Hafiz instead of Khuda Hafiz because there is a "difference between Allah and Khuda". we weren't always this dogmatic and insecure. and that is what NFP is trying to say.
it's funny... I've never been an avid fan of NFP's because of his pro-Musharraf and pro-MQM shenanigans. but I'm being forced to defend him here. kamaal dunya hai.
Re: We shall overrun: The young, urban, middle-class Pakistani’s manifesto
By your definition PTI is not. By mine it is on the very edge of the chasm as Imran Khan supports peace with the Taliban. Supporting peace with people who blow themselves up and kill Pakistani is akin to treason for me.
And ravage Pakistan 20 years ago is not what it is now. Pakistan is not what it was 3 years ago. I would expect you to understand that.
By your definition PTI is not. By mine it is on the very edge of the chasm as Imran Khan supports peace with the Taliban. Supporting peace with people who blow themselves up and kill Pakistani is akin to treason for me.
The point you artfully dodged is that of electoral support (which is why I also gave the example of Tehreek e Istaqlal). I have been one of the earliest critics of Imran Khan for his stances on the Taleban. That wasnt the point of the example.
[quote]
And ravage Pakistan 20 years ago is not what it is now. Pakistan is not what it was 3 years ago. I would expect you to understand that.
[/QUOTE]
Dont be shy. Answer the question. Tell us how much time you have spent in Pakistan, other than visiting for vacations. You risk appearing like one of those closet homosexuals who goes around accusing others of being gay.
it's good to try and understand the background and context of something. NFP's point was and generally is how Pakistan has changed since Zia's time. that is generally the theme of those types of articles he writes.
and if you were old enough you would also know that. but if you grew up in Zia's time like I did, you won't remember/know what he is talking about. all I remember is dupattas, etc on PTV. in those days you would have never imagined a Pakistani girl on TV without dupatta or wearing pants. the Pakistan the previous generation grew up in was very different from ours.
but ask your parents and even they will tell you how the culture changed when Zia came. Pakistan wasn't always like this. and people didn't use Inshallah and Mashallah as liberally and continuously as they do now. and of course, there is that Allah Hafiz and Khuda Hafiz debate as well where now you actually will be told to use Allah Hafiz instead of Khuda Hafiz because there is a "difference between Allah and Khuda". we weren't always this dogmatic and insecure. and that is what NFP is trying to say.
it's funny... I've never been an avid fan of NFP's because of his pro-Musharraf and pro-MQM shenanigans. but I'm being forced to defend him here. kamaal dunya hai.
That's not the point samb. I am sure there are a lot more things to worry about. I am definitely NOT an extremist (strong believer of moderate Islam)but still use "Inshallah or "Mashallah" because it probably gives me assurance or peace of mind. It doesn't really mean i am bringing religion into everything and there is certainly no need to worry about if average Pakistanis uses "Inshallah" or "Mashallah".
Re: We shall overrun: The young, urban, middle-class Pakistani’s manifesto
Electoral support? We are speaking of extremism. I consider Imran Khan and his party on the very edge. They just need to pull a Shabhaz to be considered Extremists.
Ravage the years I have lived in Pakistan does not change the disconnect you have. More evident with the fact that nearly all the posters consider the JUI and JI extremists but you don't.
Electoral support? We are speaking of extremism. I consider Imran Khan and his party on the very edge. They just need to pull a Shabhaz to be considered Extremists.
Let me remind you of where we were in the discussion. I told you you had no basis to say that most Pakistanies consider them to be extremists. You pointed out modest electoral support, and that they were unpopular during their time. I asked you if that is your criterion, what of smaller parties such as PTI/Tehreek e Istaqlal. Are parties extremists merely because they dont do well in the polls. Thats a bad argument.
I agree with you on your assessment of PTI otherwise.
[quote]
Ravage the years I have lived in Pakistan does not change the disconnect you have.
[/quote]
Answer a simple question. Tell us about your background, how much time you have spent in Pakistan other than vacationing. You are the archtypical expat/yuppie Pakistani you so rail against.
[quote]
More evident with the fact that nearly all the posters consider the JUI and JI extremists but you don't.
[/QUOTE]
You and samb dont make it nearly all. It is ridiculous to call a party 'outside of the political norm' if it wins elections in sizable areas (JI with Mayor Naimatullah and JUI/MMA in the last elections), has always had a signficant vote-bank and is a part of the current government (JUI).
Let me remind you of where we were in the discussion. I told you you had no basis to say that most Pakistanies consider them to be extremists. You pointed out modest electoral support, and that they were unpopular during their time. I asked you if that is your criterion, what of smaller parties such as PTI/Tehreek e Istaqlal. Are parties extremists merely because they dont do well in the polls. Thats a bad argument.
I agree with you on your assessment of PTI otherwise.
Look you want to solve this JUI/JI as extremists issue, find out how many Pakistanis on this forum do not consider them extremists. You will find out that myself and Samb hold the same view as the majoirty.
[quote]
Answer a simple question. Tell us about your background, how much time you have spent in Pakistan other than vacationing. You are the archtypical expat/yuppie Pakistani you so rail against.
[/quote]
LMAO! Assumptions are great. But not based in reality. Fine. Roughly 10 to 11 years. That is actually consecutive living. Not 6 months and then buggering off. Now I bet you want to know how old I am :D And which periods I spent those years. But it doesn't change the disconnect you have.
LMAO! Assumptions are great. But not based in reality. Fine. Roughly 10 to 11 years. That is actually consecutive living. Not 6 months and then buggering off. Now I bet you want to know how old I am :D And which periods I spent those years. But it doesn't change the disconnect you have.
Did you attend Beaconhouse or some other posh American high school? I bet that's his next question.
Look you want to solve this JUI/JI as extremists issue, find out how many Pakistanis on this forum do not consider them extremists. You will find out that myself and Samb hold the same view as the majoirty.
LMAO! Assumptions are great. But not based in reality. Fine. Roughly 10 to 11 years. That is actually consecutive living. Not 6 months and then buggering off. *Now I bet you want to know how old I am *:D And which periods I spent those years. But it doesn't change the disconnect you have.
got it you are an uncle from the 40's who were against the creation of pakistan first, then against Quaid, then become part of military coup's, then east pakistan, then all the crap by islamic organizations .. .until today.
your final goal must be creation of islamic government ..and after it is done move back to west.. heleluya !
it does effect, i must agree !
Look you want to solve this JUI/JI as extremists issue, find out how many Pakistanis on this forum do not consider them extremists. You will find out that myself and Samb hold the same view as the majoirty.
I would argue that most pakistanies will not place JUI/JI in the same ideological category as the Taleban.
[quote]
LMAO! Assumptions are great. But not based in reality. Fine. Roughly 10 to 11 years. That is actually consecutive living. Not 6 months and then buggering off. Now I bet you want to know how old I am :D
[/quote]
I can estimate to within +/- 5 years how old you are. Lets say 26. Since you're good with assumptions let me draw you a profile for you. I wager most of these 10 to 11 years were childhood or early adolescence years. Any schooling you got was in a nice little upper crust school like Froebels or Beaconhouse or KGS.
Now trust me I dont feel that any of this is bad. But to strike a man of the people tone with this background is ludicrous.
To be fair to you, you are welcome to question my background. I've spent a similar amount of time in Pakistan, educated there for 7-8 years (4 years in a private uni, the remaining in public/govt schools) and then worked there for about 2 years.
[quote]
And which periods I spent those years. But it doesn't change the disconnect you have.
[/QUOTE]
It does make any accusations of disconnect from you very lightweight.
got it you are an uncle from the 40's who were against the creation of pakistan first, then against Quaid, then become part of military coup's, then east pakistan, then all the crap by islamic organizations .. .until today.
your final goal must be creation of islamic government ..and after it is done move back to west.. heleluya !
it does effect, i must agree !
lol. pretty accurate description of our disco mullahs.
Re: We shall overrun: The young, urban, middle-class Pakistani’s manifesto
Ravage that was not the discussion. It is whether they consider JUI or JI extremists. Not if they are the same as the Taliban or not. You are changing the narrative...again.
If you wish lets do a simple poll on the matter. I can ask a mod and we can see where this ends up.
Your personal life or background does not interest me. It has very little relevance to how well one understands the vibe of Pakistan.
Ravage that was not the discussion. It is whether they consider JUI or JI extremists. Not if they are the same as the Taliban or not. You are changing the narrative...again.
Simply because I wish to contextualise the word in this debate. IMO it is a completely unfair characterization to call JI/JUI OR NFP as extremists on the other side of the coin of the Taleban.
It is an unfair polemic device designed to discredit them entirely. I think Ji/JUI have played positive roles in the past, one point of MMA for example was to get rid of sectarian violence by including shias into the org. I remember MMA publicized pictures of them praying behind some shia imam. Would the Taleban/SSP/Lashkar e Jhangvi do that? Yea some of them have made unfortunate statements recently but you cant be too hasty with that brush, if that brush means being the same coin as the Taleban.
[quote]
Your personal life or background does not interest me. It has very little relevance to how well one understands the vibe of Pakistan.
[/QUOTE]
You make a comment on my personal life and background when you say my understanding of the issue comes from 'sitting in the west reading Dawn'. I would never pick on your entitled expatriate self if you didnt question mine :)
Re: We shall overrun: The young, urban, middle-class Pakistani’s manifesto
it is truly a strange day when I spend so much time defending JI/JUI.
Re: We shall overrun: The young, urban, middle-class Pakistani’s manifesto
.
it is truly a strange day when I spend so much time defending JI/JUI.
yeh i drop my glass of wine when.. i see you are defending ji.. !