come now, dont beat about the bush. Post a definition of extremism, and show which of his views meet the definition. Not trying to be tedious, but just to see what these words mean to you.
Zaid Hamid's views are extremist to me. Paracha Sab's views are extremist to me. If they are normal to you, its okay with me. Perhaps you have a much wider spectrum for 'norm'.
I did try to explain to you that one who has a problem with anything remotely related to religion certainly isn't 'normal'.
Zaid Hamid's views are extremist to me. Paracha Sab's views are extremist to me. If they are normal to you, its okay with me. Perhaps you have a much wider spectrum for 'norm'.
I did try to explain to you that one who has a problem with anything remotely related to religion certainly isn't 'normal'.
the only specific examples you gave was him placing jingoistic symbols as middle names for Iqbal and Muhammad bin Qasim, in order to lampoon a certain sort of thinking. Neither of these figures is religious, nor does it mean that him making fun of young, urban, middle class mentality automatically means he hates iqbal or bin qasim.
to my knowledge it is generally known that he has controversial religious views, but he prefers not to write about them usually. which is fair enough. lets restrict ourselves to what he writes rather than what we think his personal beliefs/actions are.
i dont believe you had any specific political stance you can point to as 'extreme'. it is just a polemic strategy to say meh they're both extremists so as to diminish the point hes making.
Re: We shall overrun: The young, urban, middle-class Pakistani’s manifesto
^ Please provide ANY article (except the one I pointed out earlier) written by him where he DOES NOT mock religion, religious people or rituals. I agree that at times he points out the hypocrisy in those, but when it becomes your ONLY point of you, it is extremist.
BTW, he did not change the middle names. He replaced "Muhammad" in both names with what you are calling 'jingoistic symbols'. I am not very comfortable with that.
The Dawn Blog Blog Archive Paradise pulp
I find it intriguing that 90% of his posts relate to ridiculing religious practices or linking them to a mundane activities, and using the religious ethos as a way to insult people. Kinda like the Taliban. Who use ones lack of religious desire to insult others. This guy uses ones religious ethos to insult them. Just the opposite side of the coin.
Actually this entire link is an obvious example. Why does his friend in the second story need to crack Muslim jokes. Humor is not an egalitarian situation. It his bias that wants to hear some mockery of Muslims and Islam.
while I don't agree with NFP on everything especially his inability to criticize MQM for their badmaashi and terrorism, I completely understand where he is coming from on religion... look at the religious ppl and their shenanigans. look at posters here. they avail the facilities that the state of Pakistan provides (yeah, the roads are broken, the hospitals suck, the police is not professional, judicial system is corrupt, etc but guess whatever is there and whatever works, the state built it, so be fking GRATEFUL) but instead they support the Taliban who are enemies of the state of Pakistan. these types of Taliban sympathizers should remember where their bread is buttered and therefore, stop biting the hand that feeds them.
though now they seem to be a little careful with words knowing that the average Pakistani has turned against the Taliban for self-survival if nothing else. so, now they carefully choose their words so that they can hide their support and sympathies. so, how can anyone take these people and whatever they follow seriously? if you see a beard, you know that hypocrisy cannot be far behind. if it were up to me, people who call terrorist scum like that Ghazi badmaash from lal masjid, Baitullah Mehsud, etc, shaheed would be tried for treason. these criminals were traitors and those sympathize with them are also traitors. Jamaat-e-Islami should also be banned and its retarded leadership should be asked to explain its support for enemies of the state aka Taliban. and if they refuse to abandon their support for these outlaws, then JI should be banned.
and these constant comparisons between NFP and Taliban are absolutely ridiculous. NFP might be anti-religion, anti-fundamentalist, anti-Taliban, etc., but how many fundamentalists has he killed? how many suicide bombings against moulvis has he orchestrated? the answer is none. he writes what he feels - he doesn't kill people who disagree with him... which needless to say is what the Taliban do. so, lets keep things in perspective.
while I don't agree with NFP on everything especially his inability to criticize MQM for their badmaashi and terrorism, I completely understand where he is coming from on religion... look at the religious ppl and their shenanigans. look at posters here. they avail the facilities that the state of Pakistan provides (yeah, the roads are broken, the hospitals suck, the police is not professional, judicial system is corrupt, etc but guess whatever is there and whatever works, the state built it, so be fking GRATEFUL) but instead they support the Taliban who are enemies of the state of Pakistan. these types of Taliban sympathizers should remember where their bread is buttered and therefore, stop biting the hand that feeds them.
I am rather amazed by this statement. Because the Pakistani people never openly supported the Taliban. You can go back as early as 1999 and people would say that they committing atrocities against the Afghan people. The average man on the street would say that. This whole concept that the Pakistani people just changed their mind because of the suicide bombings is something one would expect from the average white American think tank. Not a Pakistani. Those of us who do live in Pakistan do realize the Grey areas of the issues.
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though now they seem to be a little careful with words knowing that the average Pakistani has turned against the Taliban for self-survival if nothing else. so, now they carefully choose their words so that they can hide their support and sympathies. so, how can anyone take these people and whatever they follow seriously? if you see a beard, you know that hypocrisy cannot be far behind. if it were up to me, people who call terrorist scum like that Ghazi badmaash from lal masjid, Baitullah Mehsud, etc, shaheed would be tried for treason. these criminals were traitors and those sympathize with them are also traitors. Jamaat-e-Islami should also be banned and its retarded leadership should be asked to explain its support for enemies of the state aka Taliban. and if they refuse to abandon their support for these outlaws, then JI should be banned.
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And one should expect a great deal of personal insecurity and immaturity from those who can not understand the importance of religion. My remark is just as idiotic as your remark that because you have a beard you are a hypocrite. You can not ban groups just because you disagree with them. After all the KKK and Neo-nazis roam around freely in the US.
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and these constant comparisons between NFP and Taliban are absolutely ridiculous. NFP might be anti-religion, anti-fundamentalist, anti-Taliban, etc., but how many fundamentalists has he killed? how many suicide bombings against moulvis has he orchestrated? the answer is none. he writes what he feels - he doesn't kill people who disagree with him... which needless to say is what the Taliban do. so, lets keep things in perspective.
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Actions and ideology are two different things. Lets remember that before making obtuse comparisons. His ideology is a mirror to that of the Taliban. One can not survive without the other. Shame NFP can't listen to the sayings of the Prophet nor can the Taliban.
.....and these constant comparisons between NFP and Taliban are absolutely ridiculous......
Who did that comparison? :S
The problem with the Taleban, or the reason they are extremists is not that they ‘insult’ people. Nobody accused Taleban, to my knowledge, of cracking off-colour jokes.
Might be my funny bone, but what exactly is the problem with the text you posted? He’s commenting on the contradiction between people’s religious ostentations and behavior. There is nothing ‘extreme’ about that, it isnt a comment on religion but on people, at best ostentatiously religious people. If he said something like ‘namaz ka koi faida nahi’ I would maybe grant your point. Go read some Rumi, you’ll be surprised at how ‘extremist’ people like him were.
As far as the second story goes. You can read it two ways. DONT crack jokes about other religions if you take cracking jokes as a sign of respect for the faith. Respect all faiths equally. Likewise for ethnicity. What is extremist about that?
This is all such milquetoast stuff that you lot are coming up with. He put missile as a middle name for Bin Qasim. He told a story about his friend using a bus driver’s sticker to shame him about his driving. Hes the other side of the Taleban.
The problem with the Taleban, or the reason they are extremists is not that they 'insult' people. Nobody accused Taleban, to my knowledge, of cracking off-colour jokes.
If that is the case then JUI or JI are not extremists either. Lets start this on equal footing. Ideologically this author and the Taliban are different sides to the same coin. In action the Taliban blow people up. This guy does not. It however does not mean that their views are not extreme.
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Might be my funny bone, but what exactly is the problem with the text you posted? He's commenting on the contradiction between people's religious ostentations and behavior. There is nothing 'extreme' about that, it isnt a comment on religion but on people, at best ostentatiously religious people. If he said something like 'namaz ka koi faida nahi' I would maybe grant your point. Go read some Rumi, you'll be surprised at how 'extremist' people like him were.
As far as the second story goes. You can read it two ways. DONT crack jokes about other religions if you take cracking jokes as a sign of respect for the faith. Respect all faiths equally. Likewise for ethnicity. What is extremist about that?
This is all such milquetoast stuff that you lot are coming up with. He put missile as a middle name for Bin Qasim. He told a story about his friend using a bus driver's sticker to shame him about his driving. Hes the other side of the Taleban.
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Like I said. Humor is not egalitarian. One does not crack a joke to balance political views. You ever seen George Carlson go "Hey i need to fulfill my white man jokes quota?" Or see Russell Peters comment on how he has done enough Hispanic jokes?
The story was to show that Muslims will mock other people but not themselves, which is actually a very common thing. Ever seen a group of white/black/brown/yellow people make fun of themselves? Like I said in the first post in this thread. He pulls the same old stuff and thinks its brand new.
I have no problem with his satire, or the post posted. But his views on a regularly emphasize ridiculing Muslims and those who practice the faith. One side of the same coin as the Taliban.
If that is the case then JUI or JI are not extremists either.
Nope. Elements within JUI and JI that overlap with Taleban are extremists. JUI and to a lesser extent JI arent extremists themselves.
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Lets start this on equal footing. Ideologically this author and the Taliban are different sides to the same coin. In action the Taliban blow people up. This guy does not. It however does not mean that their views are not extreme.
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It is part of their ideology that allows them to blow people up. I'll elaborate it for you: those who dont meet our moral standards can be blown up. Slightly different coin.
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Like I said. Humor is not egalitarian. One does not crack a joke to balance political views. You ever seen George Carlson go "Hey i need to fulfill my white man jokes quota?" Or see Russell Peters comment on how he has done enough Hispanic jokes?
The story was to show that Muslims will mock other people but not themselves, which is actually a very common thing. Ever seen a group of white/black/brown/yellow people make fun of themselves? Like I said in the first post in this thread. He pulls the same old stuff and thinks its brand new.
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A) I've seen plenty of white/brown/black/yellow people make fun of themselves. If you're talking standup theres Chris Rock, Russell Peters, Omid Djalilil (sp). If you're talking people in general, I guess this would be anecdotal, but every friend I've had is secure enough to make fun of his or her background.
b) It isnt about having a quote, its whether you are OPEN to cracking jokes about yourself, or see that as an insult. If its the latter, then you should really not crack jokes about others.
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I have no problem with his satire, or the post posted. But his views on a regularly emphasize ridiculing Muslims and those who practice the faith. One side of the same coin as the Taliban.
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In no example so far have you pointed out him ridiculing people practicing their faith. Putting a sticker on your bus and driving rashly is not a part of Islam. Neither is jingo-ism.
Nope. Elements within JUI and JI that overlap with Taleban are extremists. JUI and to a lesser extent JI arent extremists themselves.
I guess then your definition differs from the majority of the Pakistani population, who do consider JUI and JI extremists. And considering you do not consider JUI or JI extremists, then you will never concede that the author is on the side of the extremist fence.
I guess then your definition differs from the majority of the Pakistani population, who do consider JUI and JI extremists. And considering you do not consider JUI or JI extremists, then you will never concede that the author is on the side of the extremist fence.
You pull this stuff out of your nowhere. A majority of Pakistani poplulation consider them extremists. By what measure? What basis do you have for saying this?
let us not delude ourselves. people are turning against them because we are becoming the target now. most urbanites were perfectly happy with the taliban’s barbarity, beaheadings, digging of graves and rehanging of dead bodies, etc, in Swat because it was supposedly “shariat”. but did they want shariat in their own life? hell no. but it’s great when it is enforced in a far away land like Swat.
look at cricketplaya. the gentleman has a man crush on the Taliban… but did he move to Swat or Waziristan or Afghanistan? no. he moved to Canada. why bhai? you like shariat, go live with your bearded pals under shariat. but no. he wants everyone but himself to live under shariat.
quote from following article: Support for Osama waning; PPP most popular party: poll -DAWN - Top Stories; February 11, 2008
quote from the following link: Taliban Increasingly Unpopular in Pakistan
holocaust denial is illegal in these countries. try encouraging violence against a religious group or against gays and you will be charged with a hate crime. at least in Canada you will be.
again… the ludicrous comparison between NFP and Taliban. NFP is a WRITER. he writes. doesn’t kill. he might have expressed his disdain for religion and the Jamaat-e-Islami types… but he has not condoned violence against them. though I would certainly condone it personally speaking…
I don’t need to explain what Taliban do to those who disagree with them. check the headlines of the past few years. beheadings, bomb blasts, suicide bombings, etc. are just some of their proud accomplishments.
Re: We shall overrun: The young, urban, middle-class Pakistani’s manifesto
samb:
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let us not delude ourselves. people are turning against them because we are becoming the target now. most urbanites were perfectly happy with the taliban's barbarity, beaheadings, digging of graves and rehanging of dead bodies, etc, in Swat because it was supposedly "shariat". but did they want shariat in their own life? hell no. but it's great when it is enforced in a far away land like Swat.
look at cricketplaya. the gentleman has a man crush on the Taliban... but did he move to Swat or Waziristan or Afghanistan? no. he moved to Canada. why bhai? you like shariat, go live with your bearded pals under shariat. but no. he wants everyone but himself to live under shariat
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Oh God. That is so true!
Nope. Elements within JUI and JI that overlap with Taleban are extremists. JUI and to a lesser extent JI arent extremists themselves.
they are indeed. after the Taliban were routed from Swat, many common people who were previously afraid to speak up came out and said that these men were encouraged under MMA's government.
even today as the Pak army fights the bearded barbarians and renders sacrifices ever day, JI leaders come on TV and deliberately spread confusion about Taliban. this is their modus ope*****:
1) first they refuse to believe that these incidents are caused by the Taliban. because after all the Taliban are momineen. and no momin would kill another Muslim. right?
therefore, these attacks are done by Israelis and Indians.
2) when presented with irrefutable proof... or better yet Taliban gleefully accepting credit for their great achievements... then they say okay these particular Taliban aren't even Muslim. heck they found some who were not even circumcised. haww haye... so, still Indian/Israeli conspiracy.
this is their policy to confuse the issue. instead of letting the people unite against the mortal threat we face from the bearded animals, they deliberately cause confusion and try to influence the common man who might be religious and therefore have sympathies for the religious right.
Re: We shall overrun: The young, urban, middle-class Pakistani’s manifesto
I agree, there are elements within JI that are extremists, because they advocate or are part of the Taleban as was the case in certain areas such as Swat. However its a big party, and it has a history prior to the Taleban. It has student level memberships that are wholly peaceful and quite tolerant (along with the idiots). You cant tar em all with the same brush.
And between JI and JUI I would be willing to grant it for JI simply because of the behavior you speak of, but what about JUI? The taleban tried to kill Fazlur Rehman not too long ago.
I agree, there are elements within JI that are extremists, because they advocate or are part of the Taleban as was the case in certain areas such as Swat. However its a big party, and it has a history prior to the Taleban.
that long history of theirs scares the hell out of me. I'm no expert but whatever little I've read of East Pakistan's JI and how it supported the Pak army in its persecution of the Bengalis is some scary stuff. I'm not a Bangladeshi but if I were one, I would pretty bloody pissed of at the role they played there. there is a reason why they talk of trying the leadership of BD JI. yes, I know it was supposedly in support of Pakistan but you can't just kill people like that whether you agree or disagree with them.
today JI is playing is the same role in Pakistan. they don't care how many average Pakistanis die as long as they get to hold on to their flimsy ideologies, etc. treason, violence and hypocrisy is in their blood.
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It has student level memberships that are wholly peaceful and quite tolerant (along with the idiots). You cant tar em all with the same brush.
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I must disagree with that. I didn't have the pleasure of going to college in Pakistan. so, I didn't come across JI ghundas. but I've heard about them..
and what they did to Imran Khan is on video. they did this to IMRAN KHAN. I might disagree with his views on Taliban, the war in the north, etc. but if there is one icon in Pakistan for his personal achievements and contributions it is this man. he has been an inspiration to two generations and a half. forget about Imran's politics and think about the man for a sec. how can any Pakistan think of manhandling the great man like these JI badmaashes did? what kind of training and ideology are these scum being fed that makes them think they can treat Imran like that?
and the brutal way in which they murdered the poor guy who was playing music was in the papers just a few days ago.
and why should I give them the benefit of the doubt by not painting them all with the same brush when they don't give me and my kind any benefit of doubt? even then, I'm not out to kill them. the vice versa is not true.
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And between JI and JUI I would be willing to grant it for JI simply because of the behavior you speak of, but what about JUI? The taleban tried to kill Fazlur Rehman not too long ago.
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Taliban might have tried to kill moulvi Diesel though I confess this is the first time I'm hearing of, all I know is that Diesel proudly proclaims that he supports the Taliban. so, if the taliban want to kill one of their own supporters, fine by me.
khas kam jahaan paak!
Re: We shall overrun: The young, urban, middle-class Pakistani’s manifesto
^ well if the reason they're extremists is because they support Taleban then theres no point drawing a distinction between Taleban and JI/JUI to begin wtih. I would still draw the distinction between their ideologies based on the actions they consider legitimate in order to bring about the change they want to see. Usually JI/JUI dont advocate or justify violence, even though they have their criminal elements. Given that their political wing also has sizable vote bank support I dont think its fair to call them extremists outright.
Regarding your other points, I agree they have a chequered history. Not all students are the same, I went to college with jamatiis, a couple of them were good friends of mine. Used to egg me on to join them but never in the way of that poor college student. Anyway thats off topic.
^ well if the reason they're extremists is because they support Taleban then theres no point drawing a distinction between Taleban and JI/JUI to begin wtih. I would still draw the distinction between their ideologies based on the actions they consider legitimate in order to bring about the change they want to see. Usually JI/JUI dont advocate or justify violence, even though they have their criminal elements.
and I don't see the difference. if one supports a group that uses violence as its main tool to make a point, then one condones violence as well. I really don't see the difference.
JI/JUI can't say oh jee we support the Taliban but don't support the bomb attacks, suicide bombings, beheadings, etc. hain jee? if you take these away from the Taliban, what is left? what ideology do these jaahil animals have to offer? if they were at least educated or something or even if they had some deeni taleem, maybe there would be something to talk about. but what will I learn from commander Ull Ka Patha Mehsud who was working as a laborer in the middle east a few years ago and dropped out of school after primary? what great ideological education does he have to offer to the average educated Pakistani?
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Given that their political wing also has sizable vote bank support I dont think its fair to call them extremists outright.
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this is a big myth, imo. they have been humiliated in all the recent by-elections. only mainstream parties have gotten anywhere. JI has been embarrassed. heck even Imran's tonga party has done better than the so-called super organized JI. seems like voters made it a point to humiliate JI.
when there was outrage against Shahbaz Sharif's ambiguous support for Taliban, (though I would have liked to seen more outrage with one voice and an apology from PML-N) do you think the same people will forgive JI for its outrageous support for the Taliban animals?
we from Punjab, etc have not bear the brunt of their badmaashi maybe. so, we talk about their political fan base, etc. but after what they did in Pakthunkhwa especially in Swat under Musharraf, I doubt they will get anywhere in that region for some time to come. Swat and other regions will not forget the horrors of those days for a while.
and if we do, then shame on us. and we deserve these animals and their barbarity then.
You pull this stuff out of your nowhere. A majority of Pakistani population consider them extremists. By what measure? What basis do you have for saying this?
Actually no. Consider it anecdotal as well as a desire to see what the common man on the street thinks of these parties. After all the support these parties have received is minimal in a majority of cases. And more specifically there was a great deal of dissatisfaction when these groups were in power.
Just because you can't read it on Dawn while sitting in the West doesn't mean it is not true.
Samb welcome to the problem with statistics. How many people were taken into account for this poll? 15% of 10 people is not a lot. 15% of 1 million is a whole damn lot.
I do not for an instance deny that their popularity has waned. But lets take this in perspective. How many people supported the Taliban because they agreed with their views and actions in Afghanistan and Pakistan, vs how many supported them because they were fighting the US.
Secondly which group of Taliban are we talking about the TTP? The Quetta Shura? The Haqqani group? The Afghani Taliban that have taken a much larger presence in Konduz? Which group are we speaking off?
Because if you ask the average person in Pakistan they will make a distinction between the TTP and the Afghani Taliban.
Samb then by your comments Zaid Hamid is not an extremist. Seriously.