i think enchanted wants the meaning of Jihad in Islam....
and not in ahmediya religion....
open a new thread enchanted, u r bound to get a wrong answer here....
"Our Lord! forgive us our sins and anything we may have done that transgressed our duty; establish our feet firmly and help us against those that resist faith." **Quran(3:147)
[quote]
Originally posted by Jeera Blaid:
**there are too many people like babar who r adopting the path of Mirza ghulam Ahmed kaadyani who was a good scholar of his time but then lost his everything by making many wrong claims..........I have read many books about him and I was so surprised to observe that so many people around the world believe him these are those people about them Quran says
Ham nai unn ki aankhon pe parde daal diye hain they have eyes but cannot see.They cannot what is right and what is wrong
they are also not pakistani i think because in the western world they come and say that pakistan main unn ke sath ziyadatiyan ho rahi hai and mulk ka naam badnaam karte hain.....
[This message has been edited by Jeera Blaid (edited June 05, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Jeera Blaid (edited June 05, 2002).]**
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Well, whether their faith is right or wrong is not for you to decide. If anyting, you may disagree with them, but you still have to respect them as humans. The reason people complain in America is because Zahathi is being commited against them. So many Ahmedis are in prison for the stupid Blasphemy law, which is more similiar to smething passed during Nazi Germany, then something made to honor the prophet. Read the Human rights reports on Ahmedis in Pakistan and you will see. But regardless, most Ahmedis are strongly Nationalist, and very Patriotic when it comes to Pakistan.
[quote]
Originally posted by Degas:
** .. now here lies the controvercy.. Zalim and Ahmadjee have clearly stated that Mirza Qadiani is a prophet or messenger of God and u r saying hes only the promised mehdi..
First of all I am totally against persecution and whatever is done to qadianis in Pakistan is wrong.. I have many good friends who r qadianis and if someone try to harm them for just being a qadiani I would try to stop the idiots.. though constitutionally they r non-muslims in Pakistan..
But by accepting Mirza as messenger of God we r totally negating that Islam was completed by Prophet Muhammd (PBUH) or there is something lacking in message of Muhammad (PBUH). As we all accept Islms message is till the doomsday it should be therefore complete in all respects.. thats why Quran is unchanged for so long.. any other revelation from God woulld certainly make Quran dubious..
To me as I have read about qadianiat (mainly from Zafar Ali Khan's book) that Mirza was no doubt a great scholar of his age.. who tried rightly to address some of the bidaats muslims had fallen (particularly in sub-continent) and could had qualified for ebven mujaddad of his era like mujadad-alf-Sani but dunno what happened he made a U turn in belief and proclaimed him self not only the promised messiah but also non-law bearing prophet and a messenger of God.. like many others.. though I tried hard I could find anything new he said or anything that could re-incarnate Islam.. his message could had inspired for some who were tired of local biddats and traditions that were against Islamic teaching but its not large enough to encompass the whole Muslim ummah all over the world..
**
[/quote]
Now im confused.. This is what I have been taught.. Zalim bhai any answer?
Why can't it be a matter of faith? Some say that Ahmedis are not muslim because they do not accept the finality of the muhammad as the prophet. But if Ahmedis believe in Islam, without one aspect why should there be such a hubbub?
In the end isn't it a matter of faith and any religion should teach us how to treat one another instead of throwing venemous barbs and proving which is right. I can say that 5-6th of humanity doesn't believe in Mirza or Muhammed? do you think 80% of people are wrong and you are right? wouldn't that be a bit naaive? COuldn't we leave it to faith. And if Mirza was the last prophet according to Ahmedis and if uhammad was the last prophet according to the other muslims, does the message of islam gets colluded?
[quote]
Originally posted by Chaltahai:
**Why can't it be a matter of faith? Some say that Ahmedis are not muslim because they do not accept the finality of the muhammad as the prophet. But if Ahmedis believe in Islam, without one aspect why should there be such a hubbub?
In the end isn't it a matter of faith and any religion should teach us how to treat one another instead of throwing venemous barbs and proving which is right. I can say that 5-6th of humanity doesn't believe in Mirza or Muhammed? do you think 80% of people are wrong and you are right? wouldn't that be a bit naaive? COuldn't we leave it to faith. And if Mirza was the last prophet according to Ahmedis and if uhammad was the last prophet according to the other muslims, does the message of islam gets colluded?**
[/quote]
.. I think u should read a bit more about three religions Christainity, Jews and muslims.. each complement each other nonchalantely.. for a muslim faith one has to believe that Moses and Christ were true messengers of God and their message to humanity was a true one.. what happened that with time that message got changed as means of communications were not developed .. but with Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) the human civilization had developed and chnces of Gods message being changed was not there.. so Quran remained unchanged till now and is binding factor among more than 2 billion muslims.. so the need for another messenger from God was not needed.. for a muslim therefore its incumbent to believe that Prophet Muhammad is the last messenger of God and has completed the religion.. which is for all humanity.. many people had claimed prophet hood or claimed messiahs like Mirza Sahib and they have some followers too ..
If non-muslims dont believe in Muhammad (PBUH) as last or prophet of God it doesnt matter but a person who claims himself as a muslim the whole Islamic fabric is shattered as this directly leads to our faith in Prophet Muhammad's message.. though persecution of any kind is really wrong..we r a turbulent nation and sometimes do extreme in name of religion which is totally wrong..though it pains really hard that some claim from a muslim could do to destroy the very faith on which Islam was founded and spread all over the world...
Ahmadjee quoted,
".....The fact is that the holy and pure revelation, which God has vouchsafed me, contains such words as nabi and rasul. These words occur in my revelations not once or twice but hundreds of times. In the face of these revelations, how can this answer be correct that such words do not occur at all? Whereas such words now occur more often with greater frequency and clarity than before. Even the Braheen-I-Ahmadiyya, "
Message of God to his messengers have always been clear and to the point.. the sate in above quote and some reading I have done about Mirza's reveletions are so confused and mingles that it clearly shows that someone is not sure whats happening.. sometimes too much praying can be bad and peopel have even claimed themselves as God after too much meditation..
People i took heed to ur advise and opened a new thread, plz answer my question now.pleasssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee....i'll be grateful.
thankyou.
[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
On the subject of modern day interpretation of Jihad, ** the promised Missiah wrote** a 100 years ago and so true are his words:
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : Greetings of Peace to one and all
Dear Ahmadjee, can you show me the revelation which talks about this ** PROMISED MISSIAH prior to his coming**
I mean you claim he was “promised”, so where, and when was he promised and by whom was he promised and in which scripture does this promise had been foretold ?
[quote]
If he had claimed to made any changes to the law or Quran then you along with everyone would object that he is guilty of (Naozobillah) changing the scripture. As he hasn't and you yourself admit of that, now the objection is raised then what good is he? So, change or no change ... according to you he is bound to be a liar. Interesting, is it?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says. Doesn’t changing the meaning of the Qur’an amount to denying it? when the ahmedis claim Christ died in Kashmir, is that not contradicting and altering what the Qur’an says?
[quote]
Traditionally it is believed that only 4 books were revealed, and the blessed prophets of Allah who received them were Moses (as), David (as), Jesus (as) and AnHazoor (saw).
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: who told you that??? when the Qur’an says otherwise?
[quote]
Actually he claimed to purify the belief back to its original form, which was revealed to his Master and master of all mankind, Prophet Muhammad-o-Mustafa (saw). And all his claim are based on Quran, Hadiths and sunnah.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Kindly Show me where in the Qur’an, hadith or sunnah, does it says Christ died on this planet and was buried in Kashmir and will not return ?
Thanks
Regards
Ibrahim.
** who can protest and does not is an accomplice in the act **
Degas,
[quote]
so Quran remained unchanged till now and is binding factor among more than 2 billion muslims.. so the need for another messenger from God was not needed.. for a muslim therefore its incumbent to believe that Prophet Muhammad is the last messenger of God and has completed the religion..
[/quote]
Yes, a binding factor of 73+ sects of Islam indeed. :)
Am I right to assume that you do not believe in the second coming for Jesus?
[quote]
Message of God to his messengers have always been clear and to the point.. the sate in above quote and some reading I have done about Mirza's reveletions are so confused and mingles that it clearly shows that someone is not sure whats happening.. sometimes too much praying can be bad and peopel have even claimed themselves as God after too much meditation..
[/quote]
Actually the christian evegalist on TV the other day was saying the same about Quran that (Naozobillah) Muhammad (saw) was a not in the right state of mind. Quran actually states that at the time of AnHazoor (saw) many accused him of that:
17: 47/48. WE knowest best what they listen for, when they listen to thee, and when they confer in private, when the wrongdoers say, `You follow none but a man who is a victim of deception*.' *
Ibrahim,
I was wondering where you were! Taking a break?
All your questions are those you have asked before my friend and have been answered again too. I will give short answers just so you don't get mad at me.
"Promised" by Allah in Quran when he prophesized "And HE will raise him among others of them who have not yet joined them"(62: 3) and by the Holy Prophet (saw) in his Hadiths "'How would it be with you when the son of Mary will descend among you and you will have a leader raised from among you?" [bukhari, kitabul-anbiya, chapter nuzul isa bin maryam]" and many more AHadiths that talk about HIS Messiah!
Actually Quran claims that Jesus died a natural death like all other prophets died.
The triditional belief of four prophets only given the law is something I was taught in my Islamiat class in Pakistan. It was also claimed that those who had 'law' are called 'Rasul' and those who don't are called 'nabi' ... I agree with you that there were more than four. (Ahh, something we can agree upon)
I linked above the Quranic verses. Here is are a few **to make you ponder.
[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited June 06, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited June 07, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
I was wondering where you were! Taking a break?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Ahmadjee, do you mind giving the answers as asked in your own words so that we can discuss them.
you can cut and paste the answer you think is correct, but not give me an entire web site. I mean just the answer, does not matter how long or short it is, but only the answer for that question.
stop the advertisment work and answer the question for a change.
thanks
regards
Ibrahim
Ibrahim,
The website I quoted had specific answer to your question. But if you insist:
*16: 20. And those on **whom they call besides ALLAH **create not anything, but they are themselves created.
16: 21. They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be raised. *
[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
***Degas,*
Actually the christian evegalist on TV the other day was saying the same about Quran that (Naozobillah) Muhammad (saw) was a not in the right state of mind. Quran actually states that at the time of AnHazoor (saw) many accused him of that:
*.' **
[/quote]
.. they may accuse but why r u comparing Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and Mirza Qadiani? We know and u should know that Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) was never in doubt about his prophethood and was firm in his belief..
plus when ever u require any thing in religion u go for Hazrat Muhammad's sunnah or Mirza qadianis? After God whats the first name come to ur mind?
Degas,
You misunderstood, the comparison was not between AnHazoor (saw) and his servant Hazrat Ahmad (as) but between those who disbelieve in prophets! They all have the same reasons and objections and so was yours very similar to that of the person on TV. :)
Ahmadjee,
u havent answered my inquiry..
when ever u require any thing in religion u go for Hazrat Muhammad's sunnah or Mirza qadianis? After God whats the first name come to ur mind?
Degas,
After Allah the first guidance that come to my mind is of the Holy Prophet of Islam Muhammad-o-Mustafa, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and indeed that sense of direction and the true meaning of the status of the greatest prophet (saw) is ingrained in me after understanding the sermon and message of Hazrat Ahmad (as)!
Now, would you be kind enough to answer my questions ... let me copy paste:
"Yes, a binding factor of 73+ sects of Islam indeed. :)"
Am I right to assume that you do not believe in the second coming for Jesus?
[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
**Degas,
After Allah the first guidance that come to my mind is of the Holy Prophet of Islam Muhammad-o-Mustafa, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and indeed that sense of direction and the true meaning of the status of the greatest prophet (saw) is ingrained in me after understanding the sermon and message of Hazrat Ahmad (as)! **
.. thats a very diplomatic answer indeed ! I have been to qadiani people houses and have seen pitures of Ghulam Ahmad at their walls and how they all the time turn towards him ..
**
Now, would you be kind enough to answer my questions ... let me copy paste:
"Yes, a binding factor of 73+ sects of Islam indeed. :)"
Am I right to assume that you do not believe in the second coming for Jesus?**
.. I dont believe in this sect thing at all.. to me Islam is simple religion without those mystic and confused things.. without the heirarichal structure of commands which u will admit even qadianis have.. I only need Prophet Muhammad's guidance and not any others be that ur pope in London or any other so-called amirs or saints..
Yes I believe That Christ will come back one day as God raised him from sleeb.. and I also remember I read once Miraza also claimed that his rutba or level is even above Christ!!! As we all know Christ and Moses are held so esteemed and close to God and a lot of reference to them is in Quran at various places.. never heard of any mention of Mirza Sahib though..
[/quote]
Degas yar, I have one of Promised Missiah's picture on the desktop of my computer. I guess I turn to him everytime I turn on my computer. :)
And when Jesus (as) will wake up, send me a PM with his new picture. I will put that along with Hazrat Ahmad (as) picture. Deal?
Though I have to ask, when Jesus will come back ... will he change the Quran? If not, then why do we need him? If he will then :-O
[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited June 06, 2002).]
.. is se behtar he kisi qatil hasina ki pic laga le desktop par..kam az kam turn on hi ho jaye ga
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/biggrin.gif
[This message has been edited by Degas (edited June 06, 2002).]
.. itni badi badi baten nahin sochte
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
ye masla hamara nahin he aur na is se hamen koi farq padta he… just try to follow prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and let God decide what God want to do.. human mind has a limit..