Zalim,
I prefer to not debate. I have an answer to your question, and I also know what your response will be. I also understand that your response would seem logical to yourself and my response to myself. I'm not a big fan of going around in circles, so I'll end the discussion here.
My reply was only intended to someone who had stated that the finality of Prophethood is not mentioned in the Quran. If they got the message, mission accomplished.
zalim Bhai,
Here is a verse for you:
27" 92. And to rehearse the Qurán: and if any accept guidance, they do it for the good of their own souls, and if any stray, say: "I am only a Warner*". *
Just don't kill yourself if they don't listen! :)
ahmad jee jazakallah
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
soon i wont be comming over here, my only purpose on this forum is to give people the message which they are unaware of.. i am not an allama or a mufti, just a humble servant i am, and talk what i have understood.. i have accepted ahmadiyyat not by chance by choice.. i only fear Allah.
i dont care if someone dont listen, perhaps there are many silent ones who are.
wama elayna illal balaghul mubeen… and on us lies only the plain delivery of message [36:17]
jazakallah wa ahsanul jaza.
okay i would be very frank tell me wat is new in ahmediyat and why was there a need of a messenger. Allah doesnot send them until he knows that his creation needs guidance right. So where did muslims go wrong?
[quote]
Originally posted by Degas:
** .. so u believe then that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was the last messenger of God on earth.. and Mirza Qadiani is not a messenger or prophet of God ?
**
[/quote]
\
Ahmedis believe that Prophet Muhammad was the last and final prophet, and that he was the so called seal of the prophets.
Mirza is thought to be the promised messiah who is supposed to come eventually on earth according to Islamic beliefs. But that does not mean that Ahmedis dont believe in the finalllity of the prophet. I believe, Mirza is considered to be the "Mehdi" but not a prophet.
[quote]
Originally posted by JimmyC:
A question for the Ahmedis here. How far back can you trace your families being Ahmedi?
[/quote]
My family became Ahmedi in the late 1800's and early 1900's.
But I also happen to still have many Sunni relatives. My grandfather (my fathers father)was Sunni, and most of my more distant family is still Sunni, those of the family that chose to not become Ahmedi were mostly my grandfather brothers and cousines. The family still marries into Sunni families though. My brother inlaw is a Sunni for example, as was one of my Uncles, and his sons.
[quote]
Originally posted by buttJee:
*according to me these ahmadies should be shotted as soon as poosible !
there should b jamat a kalaadam jamaat who should handle these kind of........... *
[/quote]
If it were up to mne, people like you would be sent back to school. Anyways, nobody really cares what you think except the bigots.
well nobody answered any of my few questions
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/teary3.gif
anyways i’ll tell u wat happened in the mean time. it is fajr in pakistan and well after praying i got my thinking cap on…finallly…anyways believe it or not i have this link with Allah…i strongly believe in the Hadith that Allah is nearer to u then ur shehrug (i couldn’t remmeber the english meaning..sorry)…and well i believe that whenever u ask Allah something He answers u one way or the other…well i asked HIm today that who was right and the answer i got was that…look Where do we need to have a Prophet today??? in saudia? in iran? in Pakistan??? i mean all these countries already follow Allah’s sriptures…why don’t Prophets come in Japan…USA ( badly in need of a Prophet
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
)…in Russia..in China…in lets say scandanavian countries??? why do they keep coming in countries where ppl already believe in Unity of Allah and that, that he is all Powerful, why??
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif
I’ll paste a link here which lists the different religious movements all over the World.
http://www.adherents.com/adh_origin.html
PPl don’t start saying that i am claiming to be a Prophetess…but try it yourself…if u really need sum qs to be answered ask Allah…He has his own ways of answering…
[quote]
Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed:
**
Ahmedis believe that Prophet Muhammad was the last and final prophet, and that he was the so called seal of the prophets.
Mirza is thought to be the promised messiah who is supposed to come eventually on earth according to Islamic beliefs. But that does not mean that Ahmedis dont believe in the finalllity of the prophet. I believe, Mirza is considered to be the "Mehdi" but not a prophet.
**
[/quote]
.. now here lies the controvercy.. Zalim and Ahmadjee have clearly stated that Mirza Qadiani is a prophet or messenger of God and u r saying hes only the promised mehdi..
First of all I am totally against persecution and whatever is done to qadianis in Pakistan is wrong.. I have many good friends who r qadianis and if someone try to harm them for just being a qadiani I would try to stop the idiots.. though constitutionally they r non-muslims in Pakistan..
But by accepting Mirza as messenger of God we r totally negating that Islam was completed by Prophet Muhammd (PBUH) or there is something lacking in message of Muhammad (PBUH). As we all accept Islms message is till the doomsday it should be therefore complete in all respects.. thats why Quran is unchanged for so long.. any other revelation from God woulld certainly make Quran dubious..
To me as I have read about qadianiat (mainly from Zafar Ali Khan's book) that Mirza was no doubt a great scholar of his age.. who tried rightly to address some of the bidaats muslims had fallen (particularly in sub-continent) and could had qualified for ebven mujaddad of his era like mujadad-alf-Sani but dunno what happened he made a U turn in belief and proclaimed him self not only the promised messiah but also non-law bearing prophet and a messenger of God.. like many others.. though I tried hard I could find anything new he said or anything that could re-incarnate Islam.. his message could had inspired for some who were tired of local biddats and traditions that were against Islamic teaching but its not large enough to encompass the whole Muslim ummah all over the world..
in this market place of noises and reverberation
nobody hears and understands
a simple........silence!
**Degas **Sahib,
Here is what Hazrat Mirza Sahib (as) had to say about this issue:
[quote]
Some members of my community who posses only a sketchy and superficial knowledge of my claims and the arguments in support of them and have had no time to study my writings closely nor have kept my company for a reasonable length of time to perfect their knowledge, sometime meet an opponent’s objection with a reply which is not based on facts. The result inevitably is that notwithstanding their being in the right they suffer a great humiliation.
Only recently an Ahmadi was confronted with an objection to the effect that he had pledged allegiance to one who claimed to be a* nabi (prophet) and a *rasul *(messenger). He got over this objection by a sheer denial of any such claim on my part rasul. **Obviously the answer was not correct. **The fact is that the holy and pure revelation, which God has vouchsafed me, contains such words as nabi and rasul. **These words occur in my revelations not once or twice but hundreds of times. In the face of these revelations, how can this answer be correct that such words do not occur at all? Whereas such words now occur more often with greater frequency and clarity than before.* Even the Braheen-I-Ahmadiyya, published about 22 years ago, contains such words in abundance.
.
.
[Book: Aik ghulti ka Izala]
[/quote]
It’s a small booklet & is 22 pages long. I can scan it for you if you may chose! I also have the Urdu version if it will easier for you to read.
In this book Hazrat Sahib (as) gave detailed answer to your question regarding his prophet hood and also explains how those who believe that the same Isa (as) from 2000 years ago will come as the Messiah are the actual munkar-e-Khatum-un-nabeyeeN.
And how can we believe in such reveletion .. as reveletion was closed with Prophet Muhammad's era.. and message was the guidence for the whole world till the end of the world.. if Mirza is a messenger of God with his proclaimed reveletion there could be many others with reveletion fron God? I tried hard to find anything new in the s0-called reveletion but I couldnt.. Can u tell us what Mirza's proclaimed reveletion have us as a muslims or mankind in general.. what was lacking in Quran or Prophet Muhammad's preaching that need aroused for new reveletion? Mirza may claim nabi or prophet for million times but why should we believe him when our hearts are fulfilled with completeness of the faith our Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has shown us..
[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
****Degas **Sahib,
Here is what Hazrat Mirza Sahib (as) had to say about this issue:
It’s a small booklet & is 22 pages long. I can scan it for you if you may chose! I also have the Urdu version if it will easier for you to read.
In this book Hazrat Sahib (as) gave detailed answer to your question regarding his prophet hood and also explains how those who believe that the same Isa (as) from 2000 years ago will come as the Messiah are the actual munkar-e-Khatum-un-nabeyeeN.**
[/quote]
Can you present us with some of the facts & essentials from the book? Thanks
Zaalim i dont need ur explanation of the Quran....
i understand it very well....
Ahmed Qadyani was a liar....
and ur stupid explanations wont chaneg that....
"Our Lord! forgive us our sins and anything we may have done that transgressed our duty; establish our feet firmly and help us against those that resist faith." **Quran(3:147)
[quote]
Originally posted by Chaltahai:
As a non-muslim, I have noticed one glaring thing about ahmedis. They generally tend to have the best sense of humor out of the other sects. Do you guys think, that this is due to having an open-mind?
[/quote]
yes, read the very first post by babar
thanx google…i need to brush up my translation skills
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
…but why isn’t anyone answering my questions
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/teary2.gif
… I also am a seeker of truth
Degas,
If he had claimed to made any changes to the law or Quran then you along with everyone would object that he is guilty of (Naozobillah) changing the scripture. As he hasn't and you yourself admit of that, now the objection is raised then what good is he? So, change or no change ... according to you he is bound to be a liar. Interesting, is it?
The fact of the matter is that you fail to understand revelation to begin with:
Not all Nabis are law bearing! Traditionally it is believed that only 4 books were revealed, and the blessed prophets of Allah who received them were Moses (as), David (as), Jesus (as) and AnHazoor (saw). So, what about the rest of the prophets who are claimed to be 124,000 in number? Did they not receive any revelation? Did their revelation abrogated the previous ones? Take the example of the prophets among the Israelites! They didn't abrogate the laws prescribed to Moses (as), though they were by all means recipient of revelations.
Your assumption that all revelation to the Holy Prophet (saw) is embodied in Quran is wrong! Let me give you the example of the revelation he received when Allah told him that someone had poisoned the meat he is about to eat .. is it in Quran? No. What about when Allah foretold him through revelation that there is this woman who is about to go tell the Meccans about his conquest.. where is that in Quran? Though there is ample proof of such revelations in Hadiths. What about when he told everyone about his Miraj and his visit to the Masjid-e-Iqsa, and the Jews laughed and asked him specific questions about the surroundings of Jerusalem, Allah revealed to him the answer ... is it in Quran?
Allah reveals to his prophets not only the law but also talk to them as the sign of his affection. Mirza Sahib (as) received many of such revelations even before he claimed to be a prophet. For instance, when his father passed away, he was utterly disturbed and depressed and Allah revealed to him "Aalaysalaho-bay kahfin abdohu" (Isn't Allah enough for his servants?) A verse to be found in Quran by the way and you will find ingraved in the rings that many Ahmadis wear! Similarly, there are many other such revelations of him before and after his claimant as a prophet, a book by the name of "Tadkhra" has been compiled. Most of the times when Allah revealed to him something to make him understand (like the example above) or foretell him about future, Allah used the Quranic verses! This doesn't mean that all other revelations to him not found in Quran become part of Quran (Naozobillah) or anything even close.
4.Your observation that Mirza Sahid (as) didn't change anything in the modern day belief of Islam, but a few bida'ats, is wrong. Actually he claimed to purify the belief back to its original form, which was revealed to his Master and master of all mankind, Prophet Muhammad-o-Mustafa (saw). And all his claim are based on Quran, Hadiths and sunnah. The belief about Jesus (as) natural death, about understanding the term 'khatum-un-nabeyeen', about the true meaning of the term 'jihad' ... are just a few examples.
[This message has been edited by ahmadjee (edited June 06, 2002).]
what is the true meaning of Jihad?? I really want to know....Thanx
enchanted:
Open a separate thread and list down your questions as using list] .. /list to make your posts a little more readable. :)
google:
The reason I wanted people to read the whole book is because its a profound writing and the arguments go with a flow!
How about if I type up a few pages everyday and post 'em here? Would that work?
On the subject of modern day interpretation of Jihad,
**Please note: If you wish to propogate a Islamic fatwa, it must be backed up by evidence from Qur'aan or Sunnah.
You quoted Mirza Gulam as saying:
"I have brought you a commandment, which is that Jehad with the sword has been ended but the Jehad of the purification of your spirits must continue to be waged. "
There is no evidence to suggest this in Qur'an or Sunnah.
Sentinel.**
[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited June 07, 2002).]