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[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited June 15, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
**Degas,
After Allah the first guidance that come to my mind is of the Holy Prophet of Islam Muhammad-o-Mustafa, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and indeed that sense of direction and the true meaning of the status of the greatest prophet (saw) is ingrained in me after understanding the sermon and message of Hazrat Ahmad (as)!
**
[/quote]
I got this in mail long time back.. may be its not correct.. Can u ahmadjee accept or reject Mirza's words for us and if u accept those is this the understanding u were talking about above !!
"I am that same prophet , the very Incarnation of the "Seal of Prophets" and twenty years back in the Book Baraheen-i-Ahmadiah, I was called by God by the names of Muhammad and Ahmad and was declared by God Himself to be the very prophet in fresh and blood."
(Eik Ghalati-ka-Izala, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani)
"It is a fact that Muhammad(pbuh) worked only three thousand miracles... My Miracles exceed one million in numbers."
(Ijaze-e-Ahmadi, Page 79; Tadhkira tul Shahadatain, Page 41)
"It is possible for a man to attain a spiritual position higher than any other man; if any man wishes, he can rise even above Muhammad(pbuh)."
(Daily Al-Fadl, Jul 17. 1992, Mirza Basheer al-Din Mahmud Qadiani)
"As for him (Muhammad), the moon was eclipsed but for me, two bright moons have eclipsed (solar eclipse). How dare you deny it? If his Kalam (words) were a miracle, a sign, my Kalam is also a miracle."
(Ijaze-e-Ahmadi, Page 79)
"This verse, 'He is the Messenger of God and the seal of Prophets' contains a secret allusion to prophecy and that is that the coming of prophets is sealed for ever, and except for the prophet incarnate who is no other than the prophet himself, will have the faculty of receiving revelations from God openly like the prophets of old. Since I was destined to be the Prophet that was to come, I was destined to be the Prophet that was to come, I was made the prophet Incarnate."
(Eik Ghalati-ka-Izala, Mirza Ghulam Qadiani)
[quote]
Originally posted by ahmadjee:
The website I quoted had specific answer to your question. But if you insist:
*16: 20. And those on **whom they call besides ALLAH **create not anything, but they are themselves created.
16: 21. They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be raised. *
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all
Dear Ahmadjee
My apologies, if I am annoying you, but do you think, you can answer my questions as posed to you, quoting me , like you are capable of doing.
My questions were ( based on what you said) :-
1) I mean you claim he was “promised”, so where, and when was he promised and by whom was he promised and in which scripture does this promise had been foretold ?
2) Doesn’t changing the meaning of the Qur’an amount to denying it? when the ahmedis claim Christ died in Kashmir, is that not contradicting and altering what the Qur’an says?
3) who told you that??? when the Qur’an says otherwise?
4) Kindly Show me where in the Qur’an, hadith or sunnah, does it says Christ died on this planet and was buried in Kashmir and will not return ?
thanks
regards
Ibrahim
so u say ahmedis r very patriotic to pakistan....
so it means u all ahmedis do accept the constitution of The Islaimc Republic of Pakistan which declares ahmedis as non-muslims....
"Our Lord! forgive us our sins and anything we may have done that transgressed our duty; establish our feet firmly and help us against those that resist faith." **Quran(3:147)
[quote]
Originally posted by armughal:
so u say ahmedis r very patriotic to pakistan....
so it means u all ahmedis do accept the constitution of The Islaimc Republic of Pakistan which declares ahmedis as **non-muslims....
**
[/quote]
To be patriotic doesn't mean you have to agree with everything your country does..We can leave that to the Indian drones.
No Ahmedi would ever condone what the Pakistani govt had done, but at the same time, they will not use that as a reason to betray their country.
Also, I dont think the Govt has any right to declare anyone anything. My view is that Pakistan should be a Secular country. The debate over Ahmedis being Muslim or non-Muslim should be left to your clergy.
I can say this with confidence, that Ahmedis supported and still support Quaid-e-Azams dream of Pakistan. They will never abandon that dream. But what Pakistan is today, is as about as far from the Quaids dream as one can get. But like I said, Ahmedies have and always will believe in the dream that was Pakistan, come what may. We have to put Pakistan back on track, the way Quaid-e-Azam had wanted, we cant do that if we turn on each other.
SEcular State!!!
that means
1. No islamic education ...good ppl won't have to study sunni view only right!!
2. No enforcement of Shariah ( no more zainab bibi's case!! although Shariah law withdrew her death sentence yesterday)
3. We would become a super power like US of A or India ( our next door neighbour who just can't figure out how to blame Pakistan for Gujrat carnage too)
4. Oh yes Christian can become our Prez or Priminister...coool....
Any more innovative ideas??
.
[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited June 15, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by enchanted:
**SEcular State!!!
that means
1. No islamic education ...good ppl won't have to study sunni view only right!!
2. No enforcement of Shariah ( no more zainab bibi's case!! although Shariah law withdrew her death sentence yesterday)
3. We would become a super power like US of A or India ( our next door neighbour who just can't figure out how to blame Pakistan for Gujrat carnage too)
4. Oh yes Christian can become our Prez or Priminister...coool....
Any more innovative ideas??**
[/quote]
Secularism doesn't mean that. I dont think you know what secular means. I dont think anyone would have a problem with taking things out of the Koran and using them if they work. There is nothing wrong with Islamic education. There are MANY MANY madrassas in America and other secular countries. By Secular I dont mean unIslamic, infact, some may argue that secularism is more Islamic then most would like to admit. A secular state respects all its citizens no matter what their personal beliefs in terms of faith. In Pakistan, this is not the case. In Pakistan, the most important citizens are those that fit into the govt narrow view of what a muslim should be. In a truly Islamic country,just like in a secular country, no one would be persecuted for their beliefs.
Also, I dont think Pakistan HAS to be an "Islamic" country to defend the faith. Secular country also defends the sentiments of her people. The difference is that in Pakistan, the govt only looks after Muslims and their sentiments, whereas in secular and even truly Islamic coutries, the govt looks out for the rights of ALL her citizens not just the Muslims.
The very term secular has been misinterpretted by Muslims as being ungodly, but I think that the opposite is true. The way Pakistan is today is about as far from Islamic as one can get.
Islam is supposed to be the most tolerant religion in the world, yet in Pakistan its used as a tool for oppression.
The people of a secular country are free to believe what they want, the job of the govt is only to defend her citizens, and provide for their welfare among other things. Its not the job of the govt to play the role of a Kalifa, or molvi. The govt should have no say in what faith the people choose to follow.
Remember how people of Mecca would throw garbage on the prophet when he walked the streets, and yet he never chose to avenge that humiliation even when he finally conquered Mecca. If the Prophet could be so tolerant, why cant Pakistan be the same way?
Even if sunnis are right and Ahmedis are god forbid, insulting the memory of the prophet and Islam, then way cant they be tolerated the same way the prophet tolerated the people of Mecca?
By the way, I think a Christian or Hindu president or any other minority president should be allowed to lead the country. They are also Pakistani, it would be a shmae if they were not allowed to share in the governance of their own country even at the top levels. Its is their god given right.
Pakistan was intended by Quaid-eAzam to be a secular country. Look at the kind of person Jinah sahib was, he was NOT staunch Muslim in anyway. He even said in his speech that peole are free to go to their temples mosques whatever, this means he wanted them to practice their faiths without fear of govt involvment. How sad the Pak govt has turned on the very principles the state was created upon.
You dont have to agree with what people say, just have the descency to respect their beliefs as you would expect them to do the same for you. What kind of a low life muslim wouldn't grant that simple request?
[This message has been edited by Sentinel (edited June 15, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by enchanted (edited June 08, 2002).]
Adnan good grief i was really taken aback!but tell u what there is NOTHING wrong in a Secular sort of govt And there is nothing wrong in Islamic sort of govt. but if u read history u'll see how islam changed the way govt was run...what does that tell u?
it tells u that and islamic way of runnig the country is the BEST. What was in my previous post was a view of secular state. Iknow Pakistani govt is not crystal pure but that doesn't mean it has to be exchanged by secularism. It means that we should try harder to put the islamic shariah in true form in our law...which is anglosaxon.
by just changing the name of pakistan from islamic state to secular state will not help matters at all. do u think if we call sugar salt and salt, sugar...their tastes would beecome different?
You know in america u can't give religious education in primary and secondry classes...it was not in their law but they had to change it.that's a long story.
U r a citizen of pakistan. Are u tolerant? I am...i have several non-muslim friends and i don't call u a non-muslim either.. INtolerence doesnot move to the hearts of ppl because govt tells them to. I mean J-salik, a christian minister went to self jail for Pakistan...don't u think ppl of Pakistan are proud of such ppl? And if we are so intolerant why are they ready to die for Pakistan as a Hindu Pakistani stated a few days earlier ( article in pakistan affairs forum)
Now i don't believe in the term staunch muslim and moderate muslim.. A person is just a muslim if he carries out islamic injuctions...if he doesn't carry them out properly he can't be called a moderate muslim...he is called a living person with a dead soul.
As far as jinnah is concerned...he was a Great man...but i have some debateable opinion abt him which will not help matters. BUT i know he was the first chairman of our constitution making comittee and he wanted to base it on islamic principles.
I know why u ppl feel the brunt of pakistani religious intolerance...that is because Musims have this belief that whoever leaves the circle of islam shud be killed ( i am not calling u a non muslim but just voicing the emotions of most pakistanis)
and by changing Pakistani form of govt to secularism, it won't help matters because it wouldn't help to change the views of mainstream muslims.
If we do implement it ...it would be much or less like India...where the plight of muslim still goes unheard under the veil of secularism.
Well AA, THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED, If U Like it OR NOT.
So ENLIGHTEN US with Mirza Ahmed's Miracles.
**
¨`°¤© Today's Line 4 a FORTUNE COOKIE ©¤°´¨**
In the LATE 1960s, a HIPPIE very HIGH on LSD had a VISION of U READING this NOTE. Although, by now he has FORGOTTEN all about U, at the TIME he WISHED U all the Best.
Yaar all I want, is for a govt that respects ALL its citizens regardless of what religion they belong to. They should not be discriminating in any way. Pakistan becomes a joke of acountry when people realize that terrorists like Osama Bin Laden found more supporters then did the only Pakistani Noble Prize winner just because he happened to be Ahmedi. Its ridiculous that Pakistani govt cant provide electricty, water and the most basic utilities to its people. Its cant even make sure all the gutters are covered up, and yet it runs up and down the wall harassing people who commit no other crime then to believe in the Kalima.
Your right, its not important to be a secular state, that I will agree with. Pakistan can be whatever it wants as long as it treats its citizens, each and every one of them with the respect they deserve. The govt like I said before, has to protect and provide for her citizens, not make their life even more difficult then it already is.
Its not the oppinion of the Muslims that bothers me, the problem is that the Govt has indoctrined their hatered into their judicial sytem.
I can say one thing, that In pakistan they are making an all out effort to break the backs of every minority especially the Ahmedis. Its very difficult to justify my Patriotism to people in face of all the discrimination at the hands of the Govt. And yet, Ahmedis foremost amongst all other groups are fiercly patriotic. Go figure?!
But what does the govt give in return?
Ahmedis cant even defend their own country unless, at the very least, the proclaim themselves as nonmuslims or pretend to be Sunni.
The way Pakistan is, I can say one thing, it does not deserve to call itself an Islamic state.
I dont know if it is possible though to create the “ideal” Islamic state. I dont think its possible. There are to many contradiction and varying viewpoints. Take for example when Pres. Musharaf tried to amend the Blasphemy law and how all the mad Mullahs were foaming at the mouth..
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/frown.gif
I dont disagree with the merits of the blasphemy law, but I do think it is completely unIslamic in its present form. But when even the hint of changing it produces such a reaction, what hope is there for a more progressive Islamic state in general?
Thats why I say they should try being more practical, and for me Secularism is most practical and time saving form of governance. Instead of worrying about who is or isn’t a Muslim, the govt should be focusing on reducing crime, providing for infrastructre, education, and a host of other necesaties that aren’t being looked after.
Adnan the basic reason we don't prosper is that we are sticking to the quote: What has our country done for us?, if this thinking doesn't change Pakistan is not going to change...try doing something for ur country instead of picking at its deficiencies.
[quote]
Originally posted by enchanted:
Adnan the basic reason we don't prosper is that we are sticking to the quote: What has our country done for us?, if this thinking doesn't change Pakistan is not going to change...try doing something for ur country instead of picking at its deficiencies.
[/quote]
Yaar, im not picking at its deficienies (if I did that I would be typing for an entire week and stil not finish), and im not asking what the country has done for me. Infact, Ahmedis are perhaps the only ones that aren't asking what the country did for them. But thats not my point...
My point is that I CANT do much for my country because im Ahmedi. If I want to defend the country, I have to lie and tell them im sunni, or admit to them that im a non muslim (in which case they stil wouldn't let me join). Just imagine what Ahmedis feel like when the country the love treats them like SH1T!?!
Where talking about ways to IMPROVE Pakistan, not questioning anyones loyalty. we shouldn't get trapped into the habit of calling each other traitors whenever important question are raised. We CANNOT brush these things aside.
As far as im concerned, PAKISTAN COMES FIRST.
But with all do respect, we have to admit that Pakistan is not what it should be, im just offering my oppinion on what I THINK it should be.
I remember when you opened this thread…I read what you wrote..and tried to understand it…I couldn’t get what you were saying so I left it for a few days..I’ve come back…and I STILL don’t get what you’re saying…
-
But those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and believe in the (Revelation) sent down to Muhammad - for it is the Truth from their Lord,- He will remove from them their ills and improve their condition. al-Qur’an 47:2
I would request so called muslims here to plz see to ur langusge...u ppl call ur selves MUSLIMS...do u know if u swear once ur tounge is dirty gor 40 days and whether u pray or read quran on those days it is not accepted!!!!! plz try to stick to the subject without showing ur real self .
**Adnan Ahmad & Quasimodo
Choose your words wisely and maturely while particpating on the forums. I'm getting tired of having to delete posts because of profanities and rude manners being displayed.
Sentinel.**
AA, SEEMS like U MISSED my LAST post, otherwise U wouldn’t have been in such a JOLLY MOOD
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/wink.gif
**
¨`°¤© Today’s Line 4 a FORTUNE COOKIE ©¤°´¨**
In the LATE 1960s, a HIPPIE very HIGH on LSD had a VISION of U READING this NOTE. Although, by now he has FORGOTTEN all about U, at the TIME he WISHED U all the Best.