[QUOTE]
Originally posted by babar123:
** Yes they are non-muslims because they do not accept Iqrar Nama.**
We Ahmedies treat ourselves Muslims.
However, other Muslims can treat us otherwise from the date when Iqrar Nama was included in their Kalimah.**
[/QUOTE]
[This message has been edited by babar123 (edited June 04, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by Degas:
** .. so u believe then that Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was the last messenger of God on earth.. and Mirza Qadiani is not a messenger or prophet of God ?
**
[/quote]
This is the wording of Iqrar Nama.
We do not accept Iqrar Nama.
[quote]
Originally posted by babar123:
**
We do not accept Iqrar Nama.**
[/quote]
.. so if u believe That God is one and Muhammad is his messenger only.. do u believe Mirza Qadiani also as a messenger of God? or received reveletion from God?
To have your every important identity document (NIC, Passport etc), You have to mention your personal details in certain forms. In these forms, if you show yourself as a Muslim, then you shall be required to sign an Iqrar Nama. You can see this Iqrar Nama in any of such forms.
Thus officially you cannot be treated as a Muslim unless you sign this Iqrar Nama.
We Ahmedies do not accept this Iqrar Nama so it is out of question that it is part of Ahmedy relegion.
But however, this Iqrar Nama has now become the part of other Pakistani Muslim’s relegion from the date when this Iqrar Nama was included in those identity documents.
plus iqrar nama is not a kalima as ur r repeatedly saying..its an affidavid.. most people in Pakistan never heard of it as its only used for some official forms but still most believe that Mirza Qadiani was not a prophet of messenger of God..
Degas: .. so if u believe That God is one and Muhammad is his messenger only.. do u believe Mirza Qadiani also as a messenger of God? or received reveletion from God?
yes, he claimed that Allah has appointed him as a Prophet. If he had attributed something which Allah has not said, than he shouldn’t had survived long enough, Allah would have seized him with his right hand and severed his life vein (read last ruku of sura al-haqqa 69: 44-50), moreover his followers wouldn’t be flourishing today... someone above quoted the fate of a false prophet- Muslima kazzab, look where he stands.. how he died, and how many followers he left behind him, he was killed, and so is the fate of false claimants...
on the other hand those who were apponted by God, were in fact also protected by God… you people are not the only one who have stood against Ahmadis, before you many have passed their lives, of them many were more powerful than you all together, look how Zia and bhutto died, a death of disgrace. Had they succeeded in eradicating the Ahmadis? None have done a pinch of damage.. None,.. Do you know why? cause angles guard us.
The very same Quran which according to you claim that Holy Prophet is the Last prophet, also says that Prophets can come (read verse 7:35) and it is obligatory to accept him... no where in Quran it is declared that now no prophet can come, it is the same talk like the people of Yusuf(as) when he died they start saying that now no prophet will come(Al-Quran)..., and sir, coming of a Prophet is not a disgrace for anyone, its not a curse, its not a spell, but it’s a blessing for those who fear God, so fear Him if you can.
jazakallah
there have been numerous people who have claimed prophethood after Muhammed(PBUH) and there would be many who would come and say that they are prophet. so would u accept a guy who tomorrow says i am the prophet of Allah(SWT)??? this question is for all qadyanis/ahmadis/lahoris.. and btw whats the difference between these three???
To ALL ppl who believe more prophets are going to come…and that islam was not a complete religion.
Before going into this debate i assume that everybody…ahmedis…ismailies…sunnis…shias…bahais…believe that Quran has not been changed over these 1400 years.( bahais because i have an aunt who converted and she said that they believe in Quran.)
Now first of All in quran
this means that islam wasnot promulagated only after Prophet Mohammad came…islam was the religion of alll prophets.
well Ahmedis and qadiyanis are pretty prosperous ain’t they and same is the case with christians…but who is poor?? think abt it.
well somebody here said that there is no mention in Quran that no other prophet is going to come…that’s true…but it is also not stated in Quran that a prophet is going to come…and well another one here said that when hazrat Yousuf died his followers said that he is the last prophet and no other prophet is going to cum…ok fine but you cannot placemuslims in the same genere bbecause the previous scripture did tell of his arrival…but no where in Quran is mentioned that any other prophet is going to come!!
[quot]33:40 Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things.
[/quote]
well wat does it tell you??? okay i’ve also heard that some ppl translate the arabic word for seal as jewel and say that Allah meant to say that ** “Prophet Muhammad is not the seal but jewel of prophets”**
if u also belobg to this class well i can’t do much to help clear ur views but i can just say that why did Allah use such controversial word???To test his followers?
Now we have to carefully look at the circumstances in Which Prophet Muhammad came to this world to guide it…the basic reason was that bible, torah and other holy books had been tampered with and ppl had forgoten the orders of Allah..the very basic reason i would still call will be the adultration of the holy scriptures.
- Now is there any change in Quran over theses past 1400 years?
- is the religion islam incomplete that Allah had to send other prophets??
- is shariah incomplete?
when there is no change in religion islam…no adutration of Allah’s command then i don’t know i seriously can’t see the need of Any other religion or Prophet. Isn’t Prophet Muhammad the best example for us???
In the end well i’ll quote another verse of Quran:42:13 The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah - the which We have sent by inspiration to thee - and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions therein: to those who worship other things than Allah, hard is the (way) to which thou callest them. Allah chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)."
once again i am forced to ask that if muslims have not forgotten the word of Allah (proof:Quran has still not been tempered with) why is there any need of a new Prophet??
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/confused.gif
And well for those who believe except for them everybody is bound to hell:
so it seems to me that if i follow the Quran , and last day and do wat Allah has comanded me to do (the five pillars) i guess i won’t be among the losers and so is the case with all other believers in Allah. I mean seriously i don’t believe that Mother Theresa will go to hell…and Allah Knows best!
enchanted: *"...well somebody here said that there is no mention in Quran that no other prophet is going to come....that's true....but it is also not stated in Quran that a prophet is going to come..."*
Dear friend enchanted, peace be on you, I wanted to reply you in detail but due to my busy schedule i would like to make an excuse... though i want to clarify the above remark of yours.. Quran does gives glad tidings of comming of prophet(s).
[quote]
***7:35 O children of Adam, IF MESSENGERS COME TO YOU from AMONG YOURSELVES, rehearsing MY Signs unto you, then whoso shall fear God and do good deeds, on them shall come no fear nor shall they grieve.
7:36 But those who reject OUR Signs and turn away from them with disdain, - these are the inmates of the Fire; they shall abide therein.***
[/quote]
just a thought provoking verse. hope this might help you to review the rest of the verses.
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited June 04, 2002).]
7:35
O ye Children of Adam! whenever there come to you messengers from amongst you, rehearsing My signs unto you,- those who are righteous and mend (their lives),- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve.
7:36
But those who reject Our signs and treat them with arrogance,- they are companions of the Fire, to dwell therein (for ever).
7:37
Who is more unjust than one who invents a lie against Allah or rejects His Signs? For such, their portion appointed must reach them from the Book (of decrees): until, when our messengers (of death) arrive and take their souls, they say: "Where are the things that ye used to invoke besides Allah?" They will reply, "They have left us in the lurch," And they will bear witness against themselves, that they had rejected Allah.
where is there anything about coming of a prophet in these verses....
there is but clear evidence of the result of those WHO INVENT LIES....
"Our Lord! forgive us our sins and anything we may have done that transgressed our duty; establish our feet firmly and help us against those that resist faith." **Quran(3:147)
asalamoalikum,
In regards to whether Quran mentions the coming of another messenger of not, I present to you the following verse:
Surat-ul-Ah'zab
*40. Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things. *
The arabic word used here is "khatam-un-nabbiyen". Hence the concept of another Prophet cannot even be considered.
Just remember, guidance is only given to those who work and pray for it. You made a blank statement without knowing that something like this was mentioned in the Quran, take care not to do so next time.
there are too many people like babar who r adopting the path of Mirza ghulam Ahmed kaadyani who was a good scholar of his time but then lost his everything by making many wrong claims..........I have read many books about him and I was so surprised to observe that so many people around the world believe him these are those people about them Quran says
Ham nai unn ki aankhon pe parde daal diye hain they have eyes but cannot see.They cannot what is right and what is wrong
they are also not pakistani i think because in the western world they come and say that pakistan main unn ke sath ziyadatiyan ho rahi hai and mulk ka naam badnaam karte hain.....
[This message has been edited by Jeera Blaid (edited June 05, 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Jeera Blaid (edited June 05, 2002).]
i absolutely agree with that wut Jeera Blaid bhai said...
>> armughal: “..where is there anything about coming of a prophet in these verses..”
lets see what this verse says; **7:35 **
***O ye Children of Adam! *** – means the entire human race, especially the readers of this Book.
***whenever there come to you messengers *** – I think this is pretty much understood, whenever they come, if you live to that age, you must go and accept them.
***from amongst you, *** – meaning if a messenger is going to come, it will be from among you, i.e followers of Quran not out side Muslim Ummah.
***rehearsing My signs unto you, *** – meaning that the new Prophet will not make his own religion but will rehearse the same verses.
***- those who are righteous and mend (their lives), *** – this is the key point to accept that prophet, i.e those who carry a fear of Allah in their heart will only accept him, without Taqwa you wont be able to recognize him.
***- on them shall be no fear nor shall they grieve. *** – this means that after accepting they might face hardship and because of this hardship they shouldn’t revert or reject the prophet, they should not fear the opponents persecution nor should they grieve that people don’t listen to them.
CLEAR enough?
>> ammar: “..In regards to whether Quran mentions the coming of another messenger of not, I present to you the following verse: Surat-ul-Ah’zab: 40**.
dear ammar, I have discussed the topic in detail earlier, **Finality of Prophethood (Khatmay-Nabuwat)By Watcher**, however I would like to say something again
The word Khatam-un-Nabyeen in the said verse means the Seal of All the Prophets meaning the highest of all of them. In otherwords if anyone wants to validate the claimant of Prophethood, then the Seal of the Mohammad is the only measuring criteria. One must have qualities of Prophet Mohammad in him to be considered as a Prophet. For example a CHILD must inherit his FATHER’s features to be considered lawful and legitimate. Similar is the case with All the prophets(children), they must have qualities of Mohammad(father) to be considered as a true Prophets.
This is the true meaning of the word “Khatam-un Nabeyaeen” i.e He possess the SEAL(stamp) of Prophethood, without its impression no one can be a prophet.
The meaning is further enhanced if the verse is understood in the same framework.viz.
This is a very crushing reply by Allah to all the opponents who raise fingers that Prophet Mohammad(sa) is ‘abter’, - meaning he has no male son. (the topic is also discussed in Sura Kausar).
At Mecca when all the Prophet’s male children died in their childhood his enemies taunted him with being Abter, meaning that in the absence of male heirs to succeed him his Movement would sooner or later come to an end.
Over here the same charges were addressed again. They say, that the Prophet is not, never was, nor will ever be the father of any grown-up young men to succeed him. *** ‘Rijal’***, as in the said verse cited, means grown-up young men).
Allah refuted their accusation by saying, Holy Prophet is *** ‘Rasool Allah’, signifying that he is the spiritual father of a whole ‘Ummat’ and is also *** ‘Khatam-al-Nabiyyin’, signifying that he is the spiritual father of all the prophets.
So when he is the spiritual father of all the believers and all Prophets, how can be he abter i.e. issueless
But If the expression to be taken to mean that he is the LAST OF THE PROPHETS and that no Prophet will come after him, then the verse appears to be OUT OF TUNE and to possess NO RELEVANCE WITH THE CONTEXT (and with the rest of the Quran like wise). Instead of refuting the taunt of disbelievers that Holy Prophet was issueless, supports and reinforces it.
Does your word LAST weigh equally?
Take your time and shed some light on my comment.
>> Jeera Blaid: “..i think because in the western world they come and say that pakistan main unn ke sath ziyadatiyan ho rahi hai and mulk ka naam badnaam karte hain…”
Jeera & minipk, READ THIS](http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum4/HTML/001958.html), also browse the internet on persecution of ahmadis in Pakistan. You will find lots of links for your leisure time reading.
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited June 05, 2002).]
I dont wish to debate the finality of Prophethood. If translations were to be derived as one chose, the Quran can be used to say anything we desire.
To me, Allah(SWT) could have just as easily said that Muhammad(PBUH) is the spiritual father instead of using the word "Khatm-un-Nabbiyen". In my sight, this word strictly implies, "last of the Prophets".
[This message has been edited by ammar (edited June 05, 2002).]
ammar, do you have any thing to support your meaning of Khatam as LAST from any book? Also please elaborate the significance of this word LAST on the canvas of religions?
moreover for your information the word khatam is not invented by Quran, it has been used by arab sholars of that time in the sence as I am trying to explain.. like for example...
[quote]
· Baqiyyatul Mutaqaddimeen (pg. 184)
KHATAM-AL-ASFIYAA AL A'IMMAH (seal of mystics of the nation) used for Jesus (pbuh).
· Tafsir Safi (Chapter Al Ahzab)
KHATAM-AL-AULIYAA (Seal of saints) used for Hazrat Ali (May God be pleased with him).
Can no other person now attain wilaayat, if "seal" meant last?
· Al Tuhfatus Sunniyya (pg. 45)
KHATAM-AL-AULIYAA used for Imam Shaf'ee.
· Fatoohati Makkiyyah (on title page)
KHATAM-AL-AULIYAA used for Shaikh Ibnul 'Arabee.
· Sharah Deewanul Mutanabbee (pg. 304)
KHATAM-AL-KARAAM (Seal of remedies) used for camphor.
Has no medicine been found or used after camphor, if "seal" means "last"?
· Tafseer Alfatehah (p. 148)
KHATAM-AL-A'IMMAH (Seal of religious leaders) used for Imam Muhammad 'Abdah of Egypt.
Don't we have leaders today?
· Newspaper ‘Akhbar AlJami'atul Islamiyyah' (Palestine, 27 Muharram, 1352 A.H.)
KHATAM-ATUL-MUJAHIDEEN (Seal of crusaders) for AlSayyad Ahmad Sanosi.
· Al'Aqadun Nafees
KHATAM-ATUL-ULAMAA-ALMUHAQQIQEEN (Seal of research scholars) used for
Ahmad Bin Idrees.
· Roohul Ma'aanee (title page)
KHATAMATUL-MUHAQQIQEEN (Seal of researchers) for Abul Fazl Aloosi.
· Ijaalah Naafi'ah (vol. 1)
KHATAM-AL-MUHADDITHEEN (Seal of narrators) for Hazrat Shah Waliyyullah of Delhi.
· AlTajreedul Sareeh Muqaddimah (pg. 4)
KHATAMAT-AL-HUFFAAZ (Seal of custodians) for AlShaikh Shamsuddin.
· Akhbaar Siraatal Mustaqeem Yaafaa (27 Rajab, 1354 A.H)
*KHATAM-ATUL-FUQAHAA *(Seal of jurists) used for Al Shaikh Najeet.
· Al Jaami'atul Islamia (9 Jamad-us-thaani, 1354 A.H
KHATAM-AL-MUFASSIREEN (Seal of commentators or exegetes) for Shaikh Rasheed Raza.
· Muqaddimah Ibne Khuldoon (pg. 271)
KHATAM-AL-WALAAYAT (Seal of sainthood) for best saint.
· Hadiyyatul Shi'ah (pg. 4)
KHATAM-AL-MUHADDITHEEN WAL MUFASSIREEN (seal of narrators and commentators) used for Shah 'Abdul 'Azeez.
· Wafiyatul A'yan (vol. 1, pg. 123, Egypt)
KHATAM-USH-SHU'ARAA (Seal of poets) was used for the poet Abu Tamam.
· Muqaddama Deewanul Mutanabbi (Egypt, pg. 4)
KHATAM-USH-SHU'ARAA again, used for Abul Tayyeb.
· Hayati Sa'di (p. 117)
KHATAM-USH-SHU'ARAA used for Shaikh Ali Huzain of India.
· Hayati Sa'di (p. 87)
KHATAM-USH-SHU'ARAA used for Habeeb Shairaazi of Iran.
· Minar Al Hudaa (pg. 106)
KHATAM-AL-AUSIYAA (Seal of advisers) for Hazrat Ali (R.A.)
· Kitaab Raeesul Ahrar (pg. 99)
KHATAM-AL-MUHADDITHEEN used for Maulvi Anwar Shah of Kashmir.
[/quote]
The above are the few examples of people who have been given the title ‘Khatam’. How could it be interpreted as "last"?
Do you have any references?
jazakallah
[This message has been edited by Zalim (edited June 05, 2002).]
Well Zalim peace be upon you! Quran is not based upon one verse. And u cannot judge what Allah is saying from just one verse. well seriously it is a worthless argument because u ppl are sticking to one or two verses to claim ur religion to be the rite one. But Sunnis or Shias can claim there religion to be the true one by using any verse of Quran or Any Hadith. Here is what Allah Says
[quote]
2:85 After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
[/quote]
Allah knows best!
dear enchated, its not us Ahamdis who are stuck to one verse, i have lots to share and support my beliefs... the irony is its Muslims who have only one verse i.e. 33:40, that classify you as MUSLIM and me as KAFIR..
it is the beauty of this Holy Book that each and every verse has been supported by another verse, yet the verse that says Mohammad is LAST has somehow no other supporting verse..
i sweare to Allah, in whose hand is my life and yours, show me single verse from Quran that supports this verse that Mohammad is the Last messenger or No new Prophet can come, I promise will revert to your faith.