Was Pakistan meant to be secular like India?

[Southie]

Re: Was Pakistan meant to be secular like India?

@muqawwee123

So Gandhi ji was not against the act of cow slaughter?

Gandhiji personally gave up meat. However to the best of my knowledge he did not require that others give it up.

He believed in religious freedom.

Each person can show their respect their own way. .mandating that no one can eat beef on his jayanthee makes no sense. It is a divisive ploy.

[Southie]

Re: Was Pakistan meant to be secular like India?

Another divisive tactic is to Blake Muslims for not recognizing Vande Mataram. Not so fast. I googled meaning 3 yrs ago. I recall song had something about bowing to mother India. The Muslim objection is if I recall they bow only to Allah. To me this also is a non- issue.

[chacha_Ghalib]

Re: Was Pakistan meant to be secular like India?

I dont think muslim want a secular state ...as a muslim i want to see a **real islamic state **with fair treatment for minorities as prescribed by shariah..... As far as Quaid is concerned he was indeed a great man....before partition he was suffering from Tuberculosis but he successfully hided it from public otherwise as per british account british would have delayed transfer of power to natives

It would be helpful if people actually defined what a real islamic state would look like. Or at the very least, when did their real islamic state exist? In the absense of these, any talk of a real islamic state is meaningless.

Muslims could not keep an ideal, or as close to ideal as we can ever hope, islamic state for more than thirty years even though they had the best reformer that the world has ever seen. They were way better muslims than present day 'ummah'.

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

Re: Was Pakistan meant to be secular like India?

Honestly, I get frustrated when I see this type of discussion about what kind of state Jinnah meant Pakistan to be.

Are the people of Pakistan so mentally feeble that we should be in any way enslaved to be aligned to Jinnah's vision for all time? Are we not capable of deciding our own course of action?

Besides which, it is clear that Jinnah sat on both sides of the fence. He made speeches both in favour of secularism and in favour of Islamism, the latter despite some un-islamic lifestyle choices he is known to have personally made.

I believe that the two visions of Pakistan that Jinnah laid out reflects that he did not want to dictate one specific path for the country. He showed the Muslims of India all possible futures, and the fact that before he died he never dictated his personal, unified vision for the country means that Jinnah wanted to leave it up to his people to decide for themselves the path that they should follow.

[psyah]

Re: Was Pakistan meant to be secular like India?

For my addition to this dynamic thread ... I feel there is no secular state that is effective at implementing "true secularism" there is always a reverting to the dominant groups be they religious or ethnic groups. Regarding the Jinnah topic ... He always meant to prepare a separate state for Muslims modelled in the British model, which is secularism. The irony was that to sell the idea and win Muslim support it was pitched as an Islamic state to our forefathers.

Pakistan has never been Islamic - not even in the times of Zia-ul-Haq - the strings for a hard line "Islamic" stance were for political reasons to serve towards the compromising of the Soviet state. An Islamic state is by definition free from "influence" of external forces such as the West. It doesn't make it Islamic when the men grow beards and the women cover up ...

Regarding the splitting up of the country it was done by the British - with consent of Jinnah ... Why the British even needed to be involved is upsetting. We should have let them go and then negotiated amongst ourselves Desi Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Buddhists and Sikhs alike what we wanted to do with the country - the whole subcontinent - that is if we truly wanted a secular state.

[ninja_hattori]

Re: Was Pakistan meant to be secular like India?

@the_kaur

Yadavs are available all over India as far as Andhra and TamilNadu, get your fact corrects, Muslim always try to present themselves as group which they are not. Syeds and Sheikhs are as good as Pundas and Baniyas even in bihar, Muslim Saudagars are famous for bussiness even before independence. Yadavs are assisted by muslims in UP and Bihar, Bihar had muslim CM much before Lalu. Mulayam’s Kursi’s three legs are muslims, Azam khan of Rampur is number two and will be acting CM in non availability of Akhilesh

Muslims are not group they also vote as hindu castes in UP where they are majority.Prosperity of Hindu barber and muslim barber is same. Hindu weaver is OBC just like Muslim Weaver. Syeds among muslims are most of the leader be it Imam-e-Jama Masjid or Syed Shanawaz Hussain of BJP, only prominent Pathan is Azam Khan. Querishi and Ansari are looked down upon by Syeds. Caste discrimination is muslims is as tough as Hindus. A syed never marries her daughter in Ansari in Kanpur. A Hindu Jamadar is same as Muslim Jamadar.
This is why no commision will be successful unless they study muslims caste pyramid, and none of commssion be it Sacchar or Rangnath misra commission explains why Ahemeddiyas have less than 5% in population have100% literacy and 90% of muslims who are sunni are less than 30%, I am sure Syed literacy would be more than 80%. similar to 100% literate brahmins, 65% graduates but still Hindu society is just 60% literate.
Financial position of Ashrafs is different from Ajlafs, Ashrafs are twice more richer than average Ajlaf. Now hindu Kasai and querishis are not different in prosperity. With such a consolidated vote in adverse situation, institutional discrimination is not even possible, in fact minorities have different institute where they are inducted in majority be it St Stephen’s delhi,AMU, Khalsa Collage.

Even liquor is banned on Gandhi Jayanti, so if deepawali on that day would be dry day, it hurts hindu celebration, hence proved Gandhian principles are anti thesis to religious sentiment and blot on India secular credentials:D

Gandhiji was against any type of killing, that is why Indians haven’t killed mosquitoes in 65 years even though it kills us:D

If you think muslim are divided in groups then why you compared data of a hindu caste with whole muslim community…

[muqawwee123]

Re: Was Pakistan meant to be secular like India?

@ninja_hattori

If you think muslim are divided in groups then why you compared data of a hindu caste with whole muslim community…

This raises a question why almost half of the Muslim population chose to live in India, when they were told by their fellow Muslims that they would be discriminated by Hindu majority?

[ninja_hattori]

Re: Was Pakistan meant to be secular like India?

This raises a question why almost half of the Muslim population chose to live in India, when they were told by their fellow Muslims that they would be discriminated by Hindu majority?

My family chose to live in India because tombs of our ancestors are situated in india.....and they dont wanna leave them uncared

[Southie]

Re: Was Pakistan meant to be secular like India?

Ninja please walk straight up.and stop scowling.

[muqawwee123]

Re: Was Pakistan meant to be secular like India?

@ninja_hattori

My family chose to live in India because tombs of our ancestors are situated in india.....and they dont wanna leave them uncared

was this only emotional reason made Muslims stay in India or they somehow disagreed to the notion that they will be discriminated?

[the_kaur]

Re: Was Pakistan meant to be secular like India?

@ninja_hattori

If you think muslim are divided in groups then why you compared data of a hindu caste with whole muslim community…

I compared data of both muslim castes and Hindu castes, reread it again:)
Abmedkar had his own stand on muslim casteism too:)

@muqawwee123

was this only emotional reason made Muslims stay in India or they somehow disagreed to the notion that they will be discriminated?

The main reason being that only rich and able could migrate, the migrants included well read class of doctor, engineers, graduates, leaving just enfeeble class behind.

@mAd_ScIeNtIsT

Honestly, I get frustrated when I see this type of discussion about what kind of state Jinnah meant Pakistan to be.

Are the people of Pakistan so mentally feeble that we should be in any way enslaved to be aligned to Jinnah’s vision for all time? Are we not capable of deciding our own course of action?

Besides which, it is clear that Jinnah sat on both sides of the fence. He made speeches both in favour of secularism and in favour of Islamism, the latter despite some un-islamic lifestyle choices he is known to have personally made.

I believe that the two visions of Pakistan that Jinnah laid out reflects that he did not want to dictate one specific path for the country. He showed the Muslims of India all possible futures, and the fact that before he died he never dictated his personal, unified vision for the country means that Jinnah wanted to leave it up to his people to decide for themselves the path that they should follow.

When clock hit midnight when the world sleeps India awakes to…, was the first line of Nehru’s speech called tryst with the destiny, at midnight in was 1350 hrs in NewYork:D. this country was always ruled by kings and queens, we never had flair for democracy, even now none of the democratic institution has developed. Our politics is one man show be it pakistanis like Bhutto,Zardari,Imran or Indians like nehru,gandhi, mulayam etc.

[pakiQueen]

Re: Was Pakistan meant to be secular like India?

Pakistan is secular country. And there are few reasons.

1. Law is based on British law system when we it comes to judicial law.
2. Electoral system aka Democracy. (As far as i know, there is such thing called:Democracy in Islam).
3. The only two things which makes Pakistan Islamic are: That leaders of people must be Muslim and country is called: Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

Frankly i have no problem whether you like to call Pakistan Islamic or non-Islamic. As long as i am able to practice my faith which is Christianity freely. And given full right as a citizen. Christians in Pakistan are discriminated because of few jahill molvee type log at. As we knw there are good and bad people everywhere. And much of the discrimination happens in lower middle class neightborhoods or with people living in such areas. My dad has been retired Major in Pak Army and also served ISI. He said he never felt discriminated and served his country with full potential.

[Faris_Udeen]

Re: Was Pakistan meant to be secular like India?

^ Actually Islam and democracy go hand in hand from very early days. Caliphs were elected remember? Okay it was more by a consensus but still that was more democratic than some so called democracies today.

Other than that I am inclined to agree with the views expressed by Mad Scientist who pretty much said what I was gonna say and again I also agree with Psyah too when he talks about desi folk sorting the matter between themselves rather than letting the British act as the Devil advocate.