Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

Didnt they mention that consdering how many people simply dont have the time, that life in the modern world constitutes such a necessity?!?!
Some people literally, are so busy that its like they are always traveling.

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

^right. even though I dont believe it even has to be a "necessity" in order to combine the namaz.

codey bhai jaan, the "only" IMO is indicating scarcity or lessness. The meaning you are reading would come from the sentence "Turkish Muslims will only be allowed to pray three times a day".

As for the sunni understanding of things, I am yet to meet a sunni in person who actually knows that they can combine prayers even under hardship (even though theres many sahih ahadith showing the Prophet or sahaba combining prayers do not indicate a specific hardship). Infact I recently had this discussion with a sunni friend who was having difficulty offering ishaa (since it was so late, around 12ish) and was rebelling against his family by reading it earlier.

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

People don't need a fatwa not to pray. People who want to pray don't need anyone's permission. Once you die you go to your own grave and pay for what YOU did.

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

Doesnt seem unreasonable to me for your friend to read it earlier... Would his family perfer he not read it all? Seems the former is a far lesser evil, assuming its an evil to begin with...
And its ridiculous that people would simply assume that Turks will no longer be allowed to pray five times...
That seems to be more an expression of people bias towards secular turkey then anything else.

I know some Shias combine their prayers out of necessity, doesnt seem to bother them...

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

^actually most shias combine prayers for convenience :D.

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here’s a fatwa!!!

I thought so too but my hyderabadi-irani manager at my previous job said, no, we [shias] don’t do that kind of stuff. I was like yeah sure.. :sunnyboy:

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

it varies. i know people in my own family who're pretty keen on praying awwal waqt. usually the more rigorous and religious people do that. but aam loge like me are pretty happy when we're doing the combined prayers.

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here’s a fatwa!!!

:salam:

I think irrespective of what the Turkish fatwa is, there is a misconception here atleast in my opinion. Muslims have five obligatory salat and that is the norm for us. However we also have the Rukhsa of combining Duhr/Asr and Maghrib/Isha given you are in a situation where it permits you or you really have a need for it. In any case you are still performing five different salats not three salats, what you are doing is performing them in three different times instead of five (one salat per one time). What would be wrong is that you try to make it a norm to pray five salats at three different times when you do not have any pressing need for it. These conveniences or Rukhsa are given to us for exceptional or non-routine situations not normal routine. This is the main differentiating factor. For example, I epecially in winter months in USA (since the days are short and the times of prayers are close) sometimes conbine Duhr/Asr because there are instances at work for me where I know I will miss the Asr prayer, but this is not the norm for me. If I know I can make Asr on its given time or within the given time period then I opt not to combine.

A muslim should not strive to change the norm but try to achieve it and when its difficult then make use of these Rukhsa’s. If the Turkish fatwa is intended to establish this as a norm then it is wrong.

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here’s a fatwa!!!

Peace PaKpatriot1

Reinterpretation is the very thing that the Jews were taken to account for. Just like over adoration for Isa (AS) was the reason Christians were taken to account. The words are not as important as the meanings they hold, if we are reinterpreting then we might as well just change the words.

Islam has never been a tradition of reinterpretation it has however always been referential and an interpolative science. That means we can look from within for similar traditions and sanctions but not to extrapolate out, which implies changing the meaning of.

The correct view of the reduction of prayer times in the day has to be considered in unusual circumstances of undue discomfort. If a person travels everyday or if a person is in a modern working environment all or most of the time then the pressures no longer remain pressures and become part of the normal daily life processes. In which case the conditions for hardship do not apply.

By supporting a change in the direction that makes worship subservient to work or livelihood ensures that more concessions will be made in this way. It also demonstrates the belief in ones work being of greater importance than ones worship, which implies that one has faith in the benefits of work over that of ones worship. It is a downward spiral if people are to let this one go.
We must understand that life giving source is not affluence or food or luxury it is Allah (SWT) Alone. We must worship Him as He deserves to be worshipped. Prayer is the most important element for a Muslim. These times present nothing that have not already been presented to us in the past. The wisdom-starved history of humanity shows that we squibble over the same things and trip over the same traps over and over again. Islam is the standard to achieve for eliminating that. Current modern waves are only regurgitated methods of the Romans, Greeks and Egyptians. This day and age has nothing new to lend itself to. So do not deceive yourself that Islam needs to change. Rather this outdated “modern” system that we live in needs to conform to the perfection of Islam.

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

ravage- regarding the hadiths by Ibn Abbas, here is an answer:

[quote]
What the questioner is referring to in terms of evidence that indicates the permissibility of combining [m: prayers] without cause is the hadith of our master Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him):

On the authority of Saeed Ibn Jubair from Ibn Abbas (Allah be pleased with him), who said, "The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and grant him peace) prayed dhuhr and asr together in Medina without [m: reason of] peril or travel." Abu Al-Zubair said, "So I asked Saeed, 'Why did he do this?'" He said, "I asked Ibn Abbas what you asked me and he said, 'he didn't want to impose hardship on any member of his nation.'" (Saheeh Muslim)

In another narration also on the authority of Ibn Abbas, he said, "The Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and grant him peace) combined dhuhr with asr and maghrib with isha in Medina without [m: reason of] peril or rain."

In the explanation of Saheeh Muslim, Imam Nawawi demonstrates the interpretations of scholars regarding this hadith. What must be understood here is that the vast majority of scholars are in agreement that it not permissible to combine [m: prayers] without an explicit reason like travel, rain, and similar reasons that they have codified. Based on this hadith, a group of scholars holds that, when a need exists, it is permissible for a resident who doesn't make a habit of it to combine. However, as mentioned, the majority differed with them and interpreted the hadith in a number ways. In agreement with the great imam and hadith master, Al-Bayhaqi, Imam Nawawi, in Al-Majmu`, selects the following interpretation: that Ibn Abbas's statement, "he didn't want to impose hardship on any member of his nation", refers to rain; i.e., that they shouldn't experience hardship by walking through the mud to the masjid. However, this interpretation conflicts with the narration that explicitly negates rain, as was mentioned. According to a group of great hadith masters including Al-Tirmidhi, Ibn Khuzaymah, Al-Bayhaqi, and Ibn Abd Al-Barr Al-Maliki (as he mentions in Al-Tamheed), the position of exacting analysis is that the narration [m: that mentions], "without [m: reason of] peril or rain", is aberrant. What is rigorously established is the narration [m: that mentions], "without [m: reason of] peril or travel". Therefore, Imam Al-Bayhaqi's interpretation does not conflict with the authentic narration. The principle of universal consensus among Muslims is His saying (Most High), "The prayer has been enjoined upon the believers at stated times." (Holy Qur'an, 4:103.) It isn't permissible to depart from this principle except with a clear, authentic proof. Given the weakness of the narration [m: that mentions], "without [m: reason of] peril or rain", it should now be clear to you that the hadith used by some to indicate the permissibility of joining prayers without a reason can be interpreted and understood in a manner that agrees with other evidence. For this reason, Imam Tirmidhi states,

There isn't a hadith in my book that the entire ummah has agreed not to act upon except for the hadith of Ibn Abbas about joining prayers in Medina without [m: reason of] peril or rain and the hadith about killing one who drinks wine on his fourth offense.

And though his words (Allah have Mercy on him) are objectionable – because of what has been demonstrated: that, when a need exists and one doesn't make a habit of it, a group of scholars ruled according to the hadith – they are effective in demonstrating the weakness of this difference of opinion.

And Allah knows best regarding what is correct.

  • Amjad Rasheed [/quote]

Also, I would like to state that in the Hanafi madhab, there is NO combining of prayers. BUT, scholars state that IF there is a need, one may follow another madhab which gives permission for one to combine prayers. That's only if the person can do it properly (following the other madhab's guidelines)..

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here’s a fatwa!!!

^ so basically the argument is that the hadith where rain is mentioned is not sahih (even though its in Sahih Muslim too, not just Tirmidhi), and that it actually was raining at the time but the hadith did not mention it?

Now I can quote three more ahadith from Sahih Muslim (not tirmidhi), aside from the two I’ve quoted here. One of those is:

http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.1523

Note no mention of rain, journey, sickness or anything else. Since we’re seeing stars in the hadith we can presume no rain. No journey. And no hardship, Ibn Abbas is merely addressing them after the afternoon prayer. No mention of rain in the earlier hadith, infact an explicit negation of it. How can the ulema make consensus against such “sahih” ahadith by supposing that it was raining at the time?

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

MAybe and i hope you are right

[quote]

As for the sunni understanding of things, I am yet to meet a sunni in person who actually knows that they can combine prayers even under hardship (even though theres many sahih ahadith showing the Prophet or sahaba combining prayers do not indicate a specific hardship). Infact I recently had this discussion with a sunni friend who was having difficulty offering ishaa (since it was so late, around 12ish) and was rebelling against his family by reading it earlier.
[/quote]
this is becasue most of the sunni we meet are hanafi, hanafi dont consider it permissible. but again, They should refer to Imam Abu hanifa;s saying that ' whenever you find my statement in contradiction with any of holy prophet;'s statement, throw mine at wall'

I regard Abu hanifa very highly and specially like his reasoning in various issues but on this specif one we should safely follow the quran and hadees.

Since I consider Quran at the top of hierarchy for religious commands and rules and I find the relevent one so i Take it as a norm, general rule. i.e

*The prayer has been enjoined upon the believers at stated times."
*

Now i can find exceptions to the general rule in form of Qaza (prayer in travel) , prayer in war etc also mentioned in quran and combining of prayers mentioned in hadees.
Since i believe that stated time obligatory prayers are five now a hadees can not supercede the command in quran. Although i can take it as retribution and take benefit from time to time.

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

bro ravage, I am no scholar and have no understanding of hadith science. If I try to answer, it will only cause confusion amongst GS and the casual reader. It's best if we leave it to the scholars.

edit: this is not a big issue, pray as we are told by Allah and all will be good both in this world and hereafter.

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

^ bro cricketplaya you started the topic, and made fun of the fatwa. am i correct in my understanding that you dont have to be a scholar to do that :p

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

as I understand that ayah codey, there is no contradiction between combining certain prayers and prayers being enjoined at stated times. for instance the combined prayers are also read at certain times, in the Prophet's example he delayed the afternoon prayers and brought forward the evening prayers. Maghreb is never combined with asar. Ishaa is never combined with fajr. You cannot combine the prayers before a certain time, and after a certain time. There are specific times and durations, even for the combined prayers. So there is no inherent logical contradiction, only one if one has that POV to begin with.

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

yes bro I did start the thread. There's a difference between solid evidence (a layman can point out) and then sifting through hadiths which can have many meanings in their original text.

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

What's new.............Most of my Paki and Desi muslim friends don't pray five times a day.....they do it once or twice only or whenever they get time for it. Tell me something new ??

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

no i meant the premise of the thread was that its a laughable fatwa. it doesnt seem like it is that laughable, since there is some basis. whether or not valid, thats another thing.

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

Yeah, I dont know why my Shia pal was always mixing prayers... I think it was difficult for him to find a place to pray after a certain time, and he lived all the way out about a hour and a half from the college, so maybe it was that aswell. But to each his own.

Re: Want to pray 3 times a day? Well here's a fatwa!!!

^ no its not that circumstantial, most shias I know combine prayers even when there is no majboori, because they believe the Prophet wanted to make prayers easy. shias in my experience usually have stronger ahadis for ahadis that occur once or twice in sunni books. For example for the four or five in sahih muslim that I can find where the Prophet combined prayers without rain hardship etc, I bet you could find many more in shia books.