Wake up Pakistan!

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@Croquet

pcg there are other women inside that building than the students. the madrassa was providing welfare to widows and orphans. those who are questioning why not bomb em all are frankly either incredibly heartless or ignorant. and even if a woman walks around with bamboo stick she doesnt deserve to be blown into bits. i can never fathom people demanding quick justice in a situation like this.

Well, DUH, the government feels the same way. Otherwise, I assure you, Lal Masjid would be in ruins at the moment with nothing but Laashain inside it.

Including female and children.

You people complain too much. Government is doing everything they can to prevent any females or kids from getting hurt, and yet you're still complaining, "hai Allah, why are they bombing kids and women", when you know PERFECTLY well that they are doing no such thing.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@PyariCgudia

Well, DUH, the government feels the same way. Otherwise, I assure you, Lal Masjid would be in ruins at the moment with nothing but Laashain inside it.

Including female and children.

You people complain too much. Government is doing everything they can to prevent any females or kids from getting hurt, and yet you're still complaining, "hai Allah, why are they bombing kids and women", when you know PERFECTLY well that they are doing no such thing.

...while at the same time ppl are claiming that govt is dragging this out on purpose :)
i mean if a madman has hostages and he wont give em up unless he gets GQ man of the year award and shyt like that, then what do people want. a quick resolution is only possible if either you level the place or you let teh guy go without as much as a slap on the wrist.

[Croquet]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@Fraudz

ghazi is holding people hostage
ghazi wants a free pass to let the hostages go
if he let go without facing any justice, what do you think would other morons do in future.
what does it mean for all the future hostages, or all teh future victims fo these mullahs..because these psychos will know that they can get away just by holding people hostages..even their own students.

if musharraf wanted innocent people to die he would have easily done what putin or reno did.

you are letting your personal dislike for the person cloud your judgement.

i am not in the centre of this so i of course cant be very precise and accurate. far as i know there is a batch of ulemas that is willing to intervene, containing mufti taqi usmani, who already wrote in news paper before to let the lal folks know he wasnt in favour of this course of behaviour. he is also their ex teacher, he and others are willing to act as negotiators. but govt doesnt allow them yet allows MMA’s batch to intervene ( in a morbid way i think mush is trying to get rid of MMA). One can always argue that govt doesnt want to increase hostage value but we are faced with a tough situation and these ulemas are volunteering so if you are saying that kids and their parents are responsible than you can hardly blame govt later on if lal folks decide to keep these ulemas as hostage, which i doubt they will.

secondly i am not saying to give them a free ride i am saying merely to promise them a free ride. it wont be so hard to hunt him down surely with pakistani already hunting down folks and handing them over to usa so effieciently in recent years or if in worst case scenario he does manage to run away he will have to remain hidden when ever he appears go for him. what is the current waiting doing in the situation? may be wait a bit more and wait till their food supplies run out ? have we got no sort of intelligence that can help short of killing them all?

as for future i’d say govt should freaking PLAN an action instead of claiming this was unplanned, i mean with the way things were going the course of action should’ve been planned?

[Croquet]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@PyariCgudia

Well, DUH, the government feels the same way. Otherwise, I assure you, Lal Masjid would be in ruins at the moment with nothing but Laashain inside it.

Including female and children.

You people complain too much. Government is doing everything they can to prevent any females or kids from getting hurt, and yet you're still complaining, "hai Allah, why are they bombing kids and women", when you know PERFECTLY well that they are doing no such thing.

well hai Allah bit has to be done or else we have had other examples where the entire building has been blown ( refer to recent waziristan, bajour agency explosions) if you dont make fuss they will go in and butcher every one and please how would you feel if your somebody was inside the mosque? its not as easy as why didnt they come out earlier, have you read the papers? a boy who managed to escape was 13 years old! what are you doing handing out poetic justice? some of the people there went in to pick up siblings and other relatives who were student. these students come from fairly low down areas where the news doesnt travel as quickly and money isn't as fluent either.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

hey we are on the same page, promise them the world and as soon as they emerge, chitrol.

the issue is that all these 'intermediaries' are going in with very biased statements and those basically giving the ghazi dude a free ride. so if that is their view then theya re not needed, teh govt can agree to let him go now and end it, it does not need intermediaries for that. so what value are the MMA negotiators brining?

i think the bigger thing here is a precedence, its bigger than just this situation, govt backs off here, and you will see similar stuff in future.

[Mr_Fraudia]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@Croquet

may be wait a bit more and wait till their food supplies run out ? have we got no sort of intelligence that can help short of killing them all?

so tell me what will u do if he says I am all out of food, send me food or I start killing oen kid every 10 minutes?

this is a hostage situation. he is using the life of kids as a trump card.

this is very unlikely to end with him just giving up..

there will be an incursion into the compound, and it will happen in the next day.
SSG has been moving in, like a chess game, opening walls here, taking positions there. reporters are sloely pushed back to prevent them from seeing all that military is doing in preps. snipers are in place, the place is surrounded..

the blasts that people can not figure out what they are, will become very clear what they are..once the final push is launched.

[Croquet]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@PyariCgudia

Croquet, what do you think should be the punishment for a criminal? How do you think the government should be handling these situations? How would you feel if these same guys came into your home and kidnapped you and your children and accused you of whoring around?

Would you not want some insaaf?

I agree that there are people in this masjid that may be innocent - they were only there, because their parents sent them there to get some education. But if you've got militants in there who want to overthrow the government and take over leadership by brute force, and they're willing to have all these innocents die for their cause...would you want that kind of leadership? Do you expect its the government's Islamic job to let these things slide?

I'll have you know that Islamically, a government (any body in leadership - whether its a senate or king, or prime minister) has certain rights that the common public does not have!

Administering punishments and hearing out cases and judging people accused of crimes is not my job or yours or your local imam's. There are courts and procedures, and your religion tells you to follow the law of the land, even if it might not be fully Islamic. And that if you want it to become Islamic, there is a more peaceful method of achieving that.

These same Ghazi goons could have used peaceful protests, the media, speeches, meetings, conducted surveys and projects to have certain laws in Pakistan changed to be more Islamic, and to have laws implemented better.

If they wanted prostitution in the capital to end, a great way to achieve that would have been to start tipping the media off as to where the ministers go to get their "services". Then let the media tear the ministers apart with their videotapes and pen. No one would get killed.

The current Lal Masjid approach is putting innocent lives in danger, using suicide as a tool, and using brute force as a tool. Show me some evidence of the Prophet EVER using such approaches so suddenly and skipping peaceful methods of achieving his goals???

Of course, you can't present me with this evidence, and so its only natural to conclude that their behavior is absurdly unIslamic.

How can you possibly expect the Pakistani government to respond to unIslamic actions? Keep in mind, you want the gov't to be Islamic...right?

That would leave the government NO choice BUT to react harshly against the Ghazi brothers.

Therefore your criticisms of the government serve to do nothing but further unIslamic behavior in Pakistan.

That's not really any better than a horny minister, now is it?

oh hush where am i saying that what ghazi brothers pursued was islamic? i am saying you cant kill a student because she is roaming around with a bamboo stick. this person was sacked as an imam some 3 to 4 years ago, yet he refused to step down and govt then failed to enforce anything, these brother were caught before but govt's minister of religious affair (same guys still acting as minister) stepped in to save them now if these brothers are causing open ended nusiance i believe this very govt is as much repsonsible as them. as for why the got so out of hand, you know if it was only one guy with 12 students he wouldnt have attempted to hand out justice (which i by the way believe is totally wrong for any civilian) he had about 9000 students behind him and those students claimed to have complains and people of neighbour hood behind them. Now just think what is it that makes so many people follow this guy? And dont say jahalat , period. It is negligence on the part of govt, and it pi$$es me off to see the same govt being a picture of injured dignity and milking this episode again without making all the attempts that they can. I am sorry even if they bomb the entire mosque and get rid of ghazi i would consider the govt in no better light than the ghazi. As for the personal dislike, mush hasnt personally bothered me i am aversed to his self serving incompetency.

[Croquet]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@Fraudz

so tell me what will u do if he says I am all out of food, send me food or I start killing oen kid every 10 minutes?

this is a hostage situation. he is using the life of kids as a trump card.

this is very unlikely to end with him just giving up..

there will be an incursion into the compound, and it will happen in the next day. SSG has been moving in, like a chess game, opening walls here, taking positions there. reporters are sloely pushed back to prevent them from seeing all that military is doing in preps. snipers are in place, the place is surrounded..

the blasts that people can not figure out what they are, will become very clear what they are..once the final push is launched.

i doubt he can say that since he is claiming that they are refusing to leave. however if he does pull that one, i would say that is reason enough for govt to march right in and it would be justified.
as for the blast bits, its walls of the mosque that are being taken apart, however casaulty list is unclear, with govt claiming 22, ghazi saying 70 and the escapees saying a whole lot of mess inside.

[Croquet]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@Fraudz

hey we are on the same page, promise them the world and as soon as they emerge, chitrol.

the issue is that all these 'intermediaries' are going in with very biased statements and those basically giving the ghazi dude a free ride. so if that is their view then theya re not needed, teh govt can agree to let him go now and end it, it does not need intermediaries for that. so what value are the MMA negotiators brining?

i think the bigger thing here is a precedence, its bigger than just this situation, govt backs off here, and you will see similar stuff in future.

ha! i doubt anyone really wants to give ghazi a free ride even in religious circle (discounting Qazi the guy would say any thing that he thinks will score points!) of course he needs to be dealt with in an accordance to the law. and do you honestly think we wont see the repeat of this? i hope to Allah that we wont but with a very telling history of wars on terror, it is very likely we will see much worse. 800 is a number to big, if you get my drift.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

I agree with you on some points. The government should have taken care of these guys earlier, when they had caught them with a load of asla in their car. But, you know what? You religious mongers would start criticizing the government for taking action agaisnt the brothers back THEN!

If you quit putting pressure on the government to be soft with religious people, then maybe the issue of dealing out insaaf would be easier.

Its so easy in Pakistan to get away with a crime. All you have to do is wear a niqaab or grow a beard, depending on your sex. And its YOU religious people that have caused this to come about.

Lets look at the situation right now, given that we can't wind back time and redo things.

KYA ZAROORAT pari hai MMA and other religious parties ko , that as of the past day they've become increasingly vocal about no harm should come to Ghazi, and that he should be let free without punishment?!? How is this not adding to the problem!

You can blame Musharraf for all you want, but I applaud a man who can run a nation with people like your sentiments. You don't let the government do its job, because you want people who probably dress like you to be delt with in a softer manner.

I bet if Ghazi was wearing jeans and a t-shirt, you'd have less sympathy for him and his supporters.

I will tell you, that in this situation, either you're supporting the government or supporting Ghazi. If your religious troops continue to choose to sit on the fence on this issue, you're really doing nothing more than giving a green signal to people like Ghazi and his supporters.

Abhi tho pak fauj is trying to handle this situation. Your religious wing ousts Musharraf out of power and I can GUARANTEE you will never smell a whiff of insaaf in Pakistan.

I hope your negatively decreases in the future. Pakistan really is not going to go anywhere with negativity of your sort.

[picoico]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@Fraudz

i think the bigger thing here is a precedence, its bigger than just this situation, govt backs off here, and you will see similar stuff in future.

Exactly...I mean, the Generals themselves have set this very precedence of grabbing power and through force and destroying and bypassing existing civil institutions. Can we really blame the Islamists for wanting to play too?

The army can reign in the Lal Masjid folk. Great. Who will reign in the army?

[Das_Reich]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@PyariCgudia

[QUOTE] I bet if Ghazi was wearing jeans and a t-shirt, you'd have less sympathy for him and his supporters

why do u think everyone else is so shallow ....speaking of unislamic actions of lal masjid brigade you are right they should have not taken the law in their own hands but dont you see the hypocrisy of the "islamic republic" of pakistan allowing all kinds of illegal activity to flourish unchecked

[QUOTE]
I will tell you, that in this situation, either you're supporting the government or supporting Ghazi
[/QUOTE]
.
sounds awfully familiar ....

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

No one supporting the government's handling of the situation says that Pakistan is a perfect country and that no ills happen. I don't see anywhere in admitting that Pakistan is doing the best it can to handle the situation as also admittance that Pakistan has a pristine society.

You can't magic away Pakistan's problems overnight. There will be struggles, and moments where Pakistanis really have to question themselves. This is one such time.

Inshallah, I hope this incident coupled with the way the nation is basically ignoring the Balochistan situation (unlike the Earthquake) will cause people to SIT UP and ask themselves (cliche I know) not what Pakistan has done for them, but what they've done for Pakistan.

And criticizing while sitting your behind on your couch doesn't constitute any kind of contribution.

[picoico]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@Das_Reich

why do u think everyone else is so shallow ....speaking of unislamic actions of lal masjid brigade you are right they should have not taken the law in their own hands but dont you see the hypocrisy of the "islamic republic" of pakistan allowing all kinds of illegal activity to flourish unchecked

One could argue that they were simply allegations that were brought about without evidence or even reason. A system is in place, and these people decided to bypass it over days, and for seemingly selfish reasons. I think the argument is fair. But I think we should take pause, and look at the big picture here (something the anti-Mullah types are just incapable of doing, for indeed they as a matter of faith think that if a Mullah dies it must be a good thing).

There's no escaping HOW mush got power...I mean, he did effectivly commit an act of treason and continues to destroy and undermine civil institutions. Now who does that sound like?

The Lal Masjid guys are creeps. But Mushy, and all military rulers of the past, have done little to restore the insitutions that are required for a functioning state.

Pro-mil rule people argue that the normal political paradigm needed to be suspended so things could get back on track.

People argue that either the civilian administrations were too corrupt (nonsensical argument; generals could have obviously dismissed them at any time so clearly they saw benifit to the corrupt rule...they were part of the corruption, not an alternative), or that they are necessary to keep the militants in check.

Now, of course, the lunacy here is that Lal Masjid types never had a snowballs chance in hell of getting power through elections. The Military is not an alternative to these guys. They're an alternative to the mainstream political parties...who although not perfect...were willing to play within the established system. Regardless of ideology, the establishment of a stable and functioning polity is fundemental to the success of Pakistan. The military is NOT working towards that.

Talk of negativity is a moot point and misplaced. People should not on the one hand defend the undermining of the political and judicial system, and take these Lal Masjid types to task for not obeying the writ of the state.

[Das_Reich]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@PyariCgudia

No one supporting the government's handling of the situation says that Pakistan is a perfect country and that no ills happen. I don't see anywhere in admitting that Pakistan is doing the best it can to handle the situation as also admittance that Pakistan has a pristine society.

You can't magic away Pakistan's problems overnight. There will be struggles, and moments where Pakistanis really have to question themselves. This is one such time.

Inshallah, I hope this incident coupled with the way the nation is basically ignoring the Balochistan situation (unlike the Earthquake) will cause people to SIT UP and ask themselves (cliche I know) not what Pakistan has done for them, but what they've done for Pakistan.

And criticizing while sitting your behind on your couch doesn't constitute any kind of contribution.

acknowledging what is wrong and dissociating yourself from it... is the least amount of resistence you can show .....but it is still much better than justifying it
you are again right that govt. cannot make a perfect society overnight ....but why the dispropotinate use of force against the mullahs alone ...why not against other criminals white and blue collar ones] who have committed far bigger crimes? and they can start from the army itself

[picoico]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@PyariCgudia

And criticizing while sitting your behind on your couch doesn't constitute any kind of contribution.

Are you suggesting I get down there and help out the army?

Or is your stance that one should shut-up and follow whomever is in power, regardless of their past sins? If that is truly the case, honestly...what would your tone be if this were an Islamist administration cracking down on secularist generals who found fault with a ruling government?

[Croquet]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@PyariCgudia

I agree with you on some points. The government should have taken care of these guys earlier, when they had caught them with a load of asla in their car. But, you know what? You religious mongers would start criticizing the government for taking action agaisnt the brothers back THEN!

If you quit putting pressure on the government to be soft with religious people, then maybe the issue of dealing out insaaf would be easier.

Its so easy in Pakistan to get away with a crime. All you have to do is wear a niqaab or grow a beard, depending on your sex. And its YOU religious people that have caused this to come about.

Lets look at the situation right now, given that we can't wind back time and redo things.

KYA ZAROORAT pari hai MMA and other religious parties ko , that as of the past day they've become increasingly vocal about no harm should come to Ghazi, and that he should be let free without punishment?!? How is this not adding to the problem!

You can blame Musharraf for all you want, but I applaud a man who can run a nation with people like your sentiments. You don't let the government do its job, because you want people who probably dress like you to be delt with in a softer manner.

I bet if Ghazi was wearing jeans and a t-shirt, you'd have less sympathy for him and his supporters.

I will tell you, that in this situation, either you're supporting the government or supporting Ghazi. If your religious troops continue to choose to sit on the fence on this issue, you're really doing nothing more than giving a green signal to people like Ghazi and his supporters.

Abhi tho pak fauj is trying to handle this situation. Your religious wing ousts Musharraf out of power and I can GUARANTEE you will never smell a whiff of insaaf in Pakistan.

I hope your negatively decreases in the future. Pakistan really is not going to go anywhere with negativity of your sort.

Ooh okay generalizations, stereotypes, arrogance and ignorance. When you will stop talking to me like a bunch of people that you claim to know or more probably have created in your head I might actually hold a discussion with you. By the way you sound just like beloved qazi when you get on a high horse spouting stuff like people like you who do this and that and never being able to actually quote me on biases or prejudices you claim I possess. Makes it easier to debate when we stick to tangible realities rather than mental perceptions. newho i must be in good mood to let you off hook in such a polite manner.pats meself on the back and goes off

[Croquet]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@picoico

Are you suggesting I get down there and help out the army?

Or is your stance that one should shut-up and follow whomever is in power, regardless of their past sins? If that is truly the case, honestly...what would your tone be if this were an Islamist administration cracking down on secularist generals who found fault with a ruling government?

no picoico you misunderstand the fine points of this huge combat let me sketch you a picture from what i have learned through papers and news.

1) police was around the lal masjid in case another jaloos errupts and they were armed in case they were attacked since one a police man was taken by the students. but they hadnt planned any thing.

2)these students probably charmed them with bansuri or may be they had huge amount of secret weapons to attack these policemen scientifically thus rendering them unconscious and taking hold of weapons.

3)later the police and govt claimed this was unplanned action. so madrassa had such a stock and we can only twiddle our thumbs.

4)it is taking our deligent army,rangers and police force 5 day or about to get into a building and take control mean while we have casaulties in round about number of 50.

of course pak force has no helicopter, no armour, nothing to just burst into building for once and taking charge it would have caused around 50 casualties or may be less. meanwhile madrassa students are equipped with masks, armours, latest artillery and not to mention the ever threatening bamboo sticks. it is going to take couple of more days so that not one person makes it out alive and can say what indeed was going on. then mush will wipe his genuine tears and declare we tried everything but had to just blow the entire thing up. meanwhile the gas of the entire area is cut off, thus the mind preplexing thread about why the neighbours are complaining about hunger and such. and dont forget lal folks have supplies of chips and other edible to last them for days. freaking idiot! and we are suppose to be with him or against him. stuff i read here.

[Croquet]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

now suddenly the toll climbs to above 200 and between 300. i dont know what is stopping ghazi from surrendering and similarily y bomb em? y not have combat surely there would far less casaulties that way.

[PyariCgudia]

Re: Wake up Pakistan!

@picoico

Are you suggesting I get down there and help out the army?

Or is your stance that one should shut-up and follow whomever is in power, regardless of their past sins? If that is truly the case, honestly...what would your tone be if this were an Islamist administration cracking down on secularist generals who found fault with a ruling government?

No, there are other ways you can help. Try to spread awareness of the difference between a real spiritual maulvi, and a jaahil fraud maulvi (like Ghazi and company). And not on the internet, but in the real world. Everyone is so vocal online, but how many muslims do you see on foreign media trying to explain to people why the problem is the way it is , and helping find solutions? Anyone can type.