Re: Voting allowed in Islam
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
u r asking me back my questionâŚ
who is the imam for this time to who we must give bayah???
if u have someone in mind, lets go to himâŚ
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
In your latest post, instead of agreeing or disagreeing with me on characteristics of Bayah. You starting describing its practical aspects which was not necessary; everybody is familiar with it. Rather then telling me the different styles come to the core issue.
We are not discussing the procedure for Bayah. What method they use for Bayah is beyond the scope of this talk. Whether a single person comes for Bayah, a delegation comes for Bayah or a representative from a tribe, city, town, or a community comes for bayah it does not really matter. Rather then going on and on and switching from topics to topics please concentrate on actual topics; which are
(1) âThe Khilafah existed from the time of the establishment of Islam 1400 years ago, until the destruction of the Khilafah in 1924 by Mustafa Kemal.â As per the site link you pasted.
(2) âthroughout the islamic state no single khalifh can get appointed without a bayah.â
I wanted to tell you that Ottoman Empire is a Monarchial System. But you are trying to find out different ways to prove its authenticity. Your final argument was and the point you are standing on is; because all of these Ottoman Caliphs took âBayahâ that is why they are valid though they came from a Monarchial System. As you said in one of you post earlier. In response to this I told you that the Bayah was not the one which established the Khalafa and pointed out four methods for establishment of Khalafah.
By giving example of Bayah which people did in the times of Abu Bakr, Umar Usman & Ali(AS). You tried to build an idea that their Khalafah was ESTABLISHED because of the Bayah (oath of allegiance), which is wrong.
I will try not to being the issue what was happing during the times of Abu Bakr, Umar Usman & Ali(AS). Discussing these issues may take our debate to Shia-Sunni issue.
We can not say the idea you generated fits in all four cases. In case of Abu Bakr its okay, we can say that his Khalafah was established by a meeting held in Saqifa and that meeting ended with Bayah by Umar and then by other people; who gave his(their) oath of allegiance to Abu Bakr and accepted him as Khalifa. But this was not the same for other three Khalafahs. Umarâs khalafah was established by Abu Bakr when he asked Usman to write his will for him when he was on his death bed. Uthmanâs khalafah was established by the six member committee constituted by Umar in his life time; he also gave certain instructions; how to do. Uthman did not leave anything but there was a chaos. So the way you separated the event of Bayah from other processes does not make any sense. Itâs a part of that establishment process.
- (1) As a result of this bayâah Abu Bakr became the Khalif.
(2) He(Umar) became Khalif by this bayâah and not by the consultations nor by the announcement of Abu Bakr.
(3) The Muslims stood up and gave their pledge to Uthman, and theirby he became a Khalif by the pledge of the Muslims and not by the announcement of Abdul Rahman.
(4) Muslims in Medina and Kufa gave their bayâah to Ali, so he too became a Khalif by the bayâah of the Muslims.*
Since I am not in favor of this âcurrent government and his candidate for next electionâ so you cant give me a daleel (proof) to justify and validate your monarchical Khalafah from it. â They do like that, if we do like that does not make any sense. What if they themselves are wrong?
It was the same religious leaders who were with Saudi regime considering it as God gifted; when it was being established; they wrote books in praise of kingdom of Saudi Arabia and put these books in libraries built besides Saudi aided mosques. You can still find those books in those libraries. Why did they forget the criteria at that time? Do you expect from these people that they would not give Bayah to Musharaf or any other king who if he label himself a Khalifah; they would. They look islam for their present life interests and the same people will validate it. People find justification for their own purpose and there are lots of examples present.
People will try to ruin the discussion. Only your patience will take it to a fruitful end.
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
As per Hadith Quoted by ak47 first make it clear should we go for Bayah or not. Do you believe in the following or NOT. then we will decide.
hadith narrated by [muslim] âWhoever dies while there was no allegiance on his neck dies a death of the days of ignorance (Jahiliyyah).â
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
^
we must have someone to make bayah to....
without the existence of a person, who shud the allegiance be to????
so first we need a proper candidate....
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
You are right, without a person present we canât do Bayah. The criteria I believe in; I donât find anybody whom I should go and offer him oath of allegiance (bayah) but the criteria you believe in there are 1000s of people in Muslim world available at present time. (right at this moment). Why donât you go and offer him your oath of allegiance (bayah).
This hadith forcefully indicating the presence of such person who fulfills the criteria(whatever the criteria is); whom you must offer you oath of allegiance before him otherwise you are dieing a death of the days of ignorance (Jahiliyyah). We can not deny his presence.
hadith narrated by [muslim] âWhoever dies while there was no allegiance on his neck dies a death of the days of ignorance (Jahiliyyah).â
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
^ Maybe you guys should work towards establishing the khilafah. So then we have someone to show allegiance too 
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
we are; inshaAllah
its not far..
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
inuit to make it simple the islamic state implemented islam througout its 1400 years of history yes there where mistakes made along the way but as human beings we are designed in a way which we are not perfect.
If you are going to say islamic state is not valid because they are monarachies that is your opinion not based on any islamic daleel, if you can proove by the islamic daleel the islamic state is invalid and was not based on islam then bring your evidence forward because at the moment the history prooves islamic state had a constitution and canons based not on monarachy not on demoracy not on any ism except islam.
Did any of the khalifhs not get bayah? if they did not then they are invalid if they got bayah then what argument do you have left?
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
^:stupid:
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
Thinks for staying in discussion with a sincere research work and helping me to understand with patience and devotion.
These so called Islamic states and Khalafahs give bad face to Deen of Islam in this period except very few emperors.
Even if they got Bayah from people; this is not a proof to validate their khalafah. There are many examples. Though some Muslims may argue with me on this but I am mentioning the name of Yazid as an example here. Just take him as a bad character person. His father, then later on he himself took bayâah from people except few people did not give him and did not accept him as Khalifah of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
Do not see any example of Bani Umayyas and Bani Abbas and how their change of regime took place. al-'Abbas hunted out all members of the Umayyad family to have them executed except Abd-ar-Rahman who escaped to Andalus.
Havenât you ever heard about their internal disputes which result killing of sons, cousins & brothers just to get hold of their kingdom. Do you still call it a Khalafat of The Holy Prophet (PBUH). Read the history; and see whatâs written in it.
In Bani Umayyas only Umar 2 (717-20) and Yazid 3 are generally considered as just and fair rulers.
You forgot the incident of Muhammad Nafs al-Zakiyya in history; when Abbasids forgot all their pledges and their bayah to Muhammad Nafs al-Zakiyya. They put Abuâl-Abbas Saffah on the throne.
Al-Amin was beheaded by his brother Maâmun, sons of Harun al-Rashid
Al-Muntasir ( d. 862) was the Abbasid caliph in Baghdad from 861 to 862. His pious title means He that triumpheth in the Lord. He succeeded smoothly to the throne of the Caliphate in the year 861, due to support from the Turkish faction, after the murder of his father by a Turkish soldier. Al-Muntasir was implicated in the crime. The Turkish party then prevailed on al-Muntasir to remove his brothers from the succession, fearing revenge for the murder of their father. In their place, he was to appoint his son as heir-apparent.
History is filled with drinking wines, playing chess and many other evils the gradually became part of these people.
Do you think breaking the Islamic laws; Laws which were clearly mentioned in the teachings of Holy Prophet (PBUH) is called implementing Islam. 1000s of Muslims were killed to get hold of or to maintain the power or to establish an empire. 100s of history books are there; waiting for you in libraries to investigate the issue. No need to mention the name of any book.
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
^ huh! Playing chess is haram? nuts
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
Yes, ! As people are told, this is what written in books; they started saying, âwe donât believe in these books, these books are written by their enemies or some pages were inserted into these books against these kings from their enemiesâ And finally they say we donât accept any of these books; we believe only in Quran. They think that we are giving Quran and these books the same status in Islamic research work. Or they think that Quran is praising their kings.
These books are writing by same religious leader who preserved their Deen, wrote lots of books on different other subjects like fiqh, Tafseer, hadith. But when they come to history they simply deny it because it goes against their kings. They donât see lots of Ullema were poisoned and martyred by them. These were the same emperors about whom the Prophet said:
*âThe Children of Umayad shall ascend to my pulpit. I have seen them in my dreams jumping on my pulpit like monkeys.â *
Then the Prophet said that the following verse was revealed about the Umayad :
âAnd We made that dream, which We have shown you, only as a test to the people and the cursed tree in the Quran. And We warn them but it only increases their extreme transgression!â(17:60)
References:
Sharh Ibn Abi al-Hadid, Volume 3 page 81 Printed by Mohammad Ali Subaih in Egypt
Fakhr al-Din al-Razi in his commentary of the Holy Quran Chapter 17 Volume 5 Pages 413 - 414 Second Printing by al-Matbaah al-Sarafeyah 1304 H
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
Inuit
now you are falling into the trap of drifting from the topic if you are gonna go down the line that the khalifahs where nothing but bunch of wine drinkers and had harems full of 400 hundred women then i will leave you and your orientalist books and move on.
If you want to discuss the voting system and islamic ruling system then it can continue.
You mention where khalifhs where killed and assasinated and conspiracies took place yes this happened and mistakes where made i said this several times, but islam was the constitution and reference if some muslims chose to commit a crime you do not invalidate the islamic state or system based on these individual acts.
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
^ yeah but if the so called islamic system and law sanctions such mistakes then such a system has to be held responsible and rejected. If someone quotes something and kills another because his holy book said it's alright, the guy is still a murderer and the book will no longer be given the exalted state!
In other words, NOTHING and NOBODY including God is exempt from cause effect.
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
ak47 : This purpose of this thread to discuss and find out the views of (true) Islam about (1) Voting to get a decision about some issue (2) Voting to Select or Elect Khalifa/Imam/(True) Leader of(for) the whole Muslim Ummah;
(1) Is voting allowed in Islam for decision not related to the selection/election of a Khalifa e.g if there is a dispute among people to built a bridge on a river in a particular area; can we decide it by voting or so?
(2) Is voting allowed in Islam for the selection/election of Khalifa.
Voting is a method to find out the (selected or general) public opinion on certain issues; the issues for which voting takes place. Procedure/method/rules and regulation and policies can be different e.g age of voter, education of voter, nationality of voter; electronic voting, ballet boxes size colors, dates, time, polling booths etc etc. If somebody says electronic voting is HARAM in islam; does not make any sense or somebody say age of a voter should be 22 years otherwise its not allowing in islam. Variations in these does not make voting Haram or Halal in religion. These are the procedural things; which should also be decided by those who are involved in it.
We are discussing here the 2nd point Voting for Khalifa; no concern with the first point whether itâs valid or invalid.
To know about the ruling first we must know (1) the place/value/status of Leadership in Islam we must know (2) the goals of Islam
ak47: If somebody says voting is invalid for the election or selection of a khalifa in islam in an Islamic State and gives the example of a monarchical system instead which is ALSO invalid in Islam for an Islamic State is not a righteous act. This makes the situation from bad to worst.
Those emperors who you find in these chains who were good in their deeds and helped islam to strengthen it just like the good in a bad bunch â They were slightly less bad than other bad people in a group of monarchs.
We donât say that though there were Killings, people were assassinated and there were lots of conspiracies but we take these mistakes as necessary evil because we donât have any other choice other than the Khalafah system; The System about which you (ak47) are talking.
(True) Khalafah includes both intellectual authority and political leadership. Khalifah is entrusted with the guardianship of the Holy Prophetâs (PBUH) accomplishments and the continuation of his leadership, in order to teach men the truths of the Qurâan and religion and ordinances concerning society; in short, he was to guide them in all dimensions of their existence.
Such leadership, exercised in its true and proper form, is nothing other than the realization of the goals of Islam and the implementation of its precepts, precepts established by the Messenger of God; it bestows objective existence on the ideal of forming a community and codifying a law for its governance. Imamate and leadership are sometimes understood in a restricted sense to refer to the person who is entrusted with exclusively social or political leadership. However, the spiritual dimension of man is connected intimately with the mission of religion, and the true and veritable Imam is that exalted person who combines in himself intellectual authority and political leadership; who stands at the head of Islamic society, being enabled thereby both of convey to men the divine laws that exist in every sphere and to implement them; and who preserves the collective identity and the human dignity of the Muslims from decline and corruption. In addition, the Imam is one whose personality, already in this world, has a divine aspect; his dealings with God and man, his implementation of all the devotional, ethical and social precepts of Godâs religion, furnish a complete pattern and model for imitation. It is the Imam who guides the movement of men toward perfection. It is therefore incumbent on all believers to follow him in all matters, for he is a living exemplar for the development of the self and of society, and his mode of life is the best specimen of virtue for the Islamic community.
True leadership (Khalifah) is a form of divine governance, an office depending on appointment just like prophethood, something God bestows on exalted persons. The difference is that the Prophet is the founder of the religion and the school of thought that proceeds from it, whereas the Khalifa or Imam has the function of guarding and protecting Godâs religion, in the sense that people have the duty of following in all dimensions of their life the spiritual values and mode of conduct of the Khalifaas/Imams.
After the Messenger of God, the Islamic ummah stood in need of a worthy personage who would be endowed with the knowledge derived from revelation, exempt from sin and impurity, and capable of perpetuating the path of the founder of the shariâah. Only such a personage would be able not only to watch over the political developments of the time and to protect society from its deviant elements, but also to provide people with the extensive religious knowledge which spring from the fountainhead of revelation and derive from the general principles of the shariâah. The laws derived from revelation would thus be preserved, and the torch of truth and justice held high.
Imamate and caliphate are inseparable, in just the same way that the governmental functions of the Messenger of God cannot be separated from his prophetic office. Spiritual Islam and political Islam are two parts of a single whole. However, in the course of Islamic history, political power did become separated from the spiritual Imamate, and the political dimension of religion was separated from its spiritual dimension.
If Islamic society is not headed by a worthy, just, God fearing person, one unsullied by moral impurity, whose deeds and words serve as a model for people; if, on the contrary, the ruler of society himself violates the law and turns his back on the principles of justice there will be no environment capable of receiving justice, and it will not be possible neither for virtue and piety to grow and ascend, nor for the aim of Islamic government to be accomplished, which is none other than orienting men to the Supreme Principle and creating a sound environment for the dissemination of spiritual values and the implementation of a law based on divine revelation. The moral conduct of the ruler and the role of government have so profound and powerful an effect on society that 'Ali, the Commander of the Faithful, peace be upon him, regarded it as more influential than the educative role of the father within the household. He thus said: âWith respect to their morals, people resemble their rulers more than they resemble their fathers.â[4]
Since there is a particular connection and affinity between the aims of a given government and the attributes and characteristics of its leader, attaining the ideals of Islamic government is dependent on the existence of a leader in whom are crystallized the special qualities of a perfected human being.
In addition, the need of a society moving forward toward its own perfection for leadership and governance is a natural and innate need, and in just the same way that Islam has made provision for the individual and collective needs of man, material and moral, by codifying and ordering a coherent system of law, it must also pay heed to the natural need for leadership in a fashion that accords with manâs essential disposition.
God has provided every existent being with all the tools and instruments it needs to transcend the limitations of weakness and lack and advance toward its own perfection. Is it then possible that man who is also nurtured in the embrace of nature would somehow be excepted from the operation of this inviolable rule and be deprived of the means of spiritual ascent?
Could it be said that a Creator Who has lavished generosity on man for the sake of his bodily development might deprive him of the most basic means needed for his spiritual elevation, that He might grudge him this bounty?
At the time of the death of the Messenger of God, the Islamic nation had not reached the cultural or intellectual level that would have permitted it do continue its development toward perfection without guardianship and oversight. The program that Islam had established for the development and elevation of man would have remained soulless and incomplete unless the principle of Imamate had been joined to it; Islam would have been unable to play its precious role in the liberation of man and the blossoming of his talents.
Fundamental Islamic texts proclaim that if the principle of Imamate is subtracted from Islam, the spirit of the laws of Islam and the progressive, monotheistic society based on them would be lost; nothing would remain but a lifeless form.
The Prophet of Islam, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, said: âWhosoever dies without recognizing the Imam of his time dies the death of the Jahiliyyah.â[5]
The reason for this is that during the Jahiliyyah pre-Islamic era of ignorance the people were polytheists; they knew nothing of either monotheism or of prophethood. This categorical declaration by the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, shows the importance that he assigned to the Imamate, to the degree that if someone fails to place his spiritual life beneath the protective cover of a perfected ruler he is equivalent to one whose whole life was spent in the Jahiliyyah and then went unredeemed to his death.
Notes:
[3] al-Duri, al-Nuzum al-Islamiyyah, Vol. I, pp. 72-84.
[4] al-Majlisi, Biharal-Anwar, Vol, XVII, p. 129.
[5] Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad, p. 96.
Source:
http://al-islam.org/leadership/
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
inuit
Very interisting reply i agree with majority of it. I made my reply short as possible and to the point.
1) Voting for a khlifah is one of the methods allowed to select a khalifh.
2) Voting is not permitted for example for a bridge to be built in particular area, this is up to the wiliyah and his deputies of the region. However consultation with experts on the subject matter is essential for obvious reasons.
3) see answer to question 1.
Electronic voting is just a tool and is not haram, it is up to the state by which style and by what means they choose to conduct a vote.
voting is not invalid but you must remember it is not the only method to select a khalifh there are several methods and you can look at the first what we call rightly guided khulafah on these styles used to select a leader, focusing on just the voting method restricts the methods we are allowed, for example when the islamic state is established again soon inshallah in my opinion and others i don't see that voting by whole ummah will be the first method chosen because it will be a 3 day rule you need a khalifah there and then you cant wait months for voting process to take place while the newly born state is taking shape with all the war mongerers and states like US and Britain trying to undermine it do you see, once state is established and next khalifah is needed then the voting by ummah method can be brought in.
the section where you mention about charactaristics of a leader of a state i agree with, some are fard some are recommended. the fard criteria of a candidate for leader are they must be free (Hurr), i.e. not a slave, mature (baaligh), sane (âaaqil), trustworthy (âadl), competent; and he must be muslim.
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
Asalam-o-Alakum ak47,
Sorry for delay in reply and thanks for reading my previous post. Though our main topic of discussion is âVoting for Khalifa to elect/select himâ. however as a sideline as you mentioned in your second point that:
â2. Voting is not permitted for example for a bridge to be built in particular area. this is up to the wiliyah and his deputies of the region. However consultation with experts on the subject matter is essential for obvious reasons.â
Though I have read your statement many times it seems ambiguous to me; one can get two opposite meanings from it. Either itâs totally NOT PERMITTED or this is up to Wiliyah and his deputies to consult public after consulting experts for these matters.
There is no harm in voting to find out the opinion for the issue which is not related to the selection/election of a Khalifa.
Take the example for construction of a bridge again. If there is a dispute among people to built a bridge on a river in a particular area; group A is saying that bridge should be at point 1 and the group B is saying that bridge should be at point 2. both groups are living in the same city; both have similar requirements and interests and even after consulting the experts, who donât find any problem in building bridge at any of the both points (point 1 and point 2)- obviously some authority (Wiliyah, Administration, Controllers or whoever is working there) would decide to have a referendum by whatever method he(they) adapt to find out the interests and (wish, choice or desire) of majority of people. Itâs a natural thing; even we practice it in some very little things like some friends asking each other to find out what kind of food they want to have or from which restaurant should they buy today or so. You can find lots of daily life example for this.
BUT Khalafat is not an acquired job; it is a âdesignationâ bestowed by Allah and man is not all knowledge; neither he can claim for this. Although he can decide different matters in society by mutual understanding by finding the other opinions and wishes but not in all cases. Only those cases which comes under his knowledge. Those issue which are beyond or above the scope of knowledge or understanding he canât make decision on it. Again lots of example present. (election/selection/voting/ or nominating) Khalafah is one of those issues.
It is for this reason that we believe that only Allah can appoint a successor to the Prophet (Imam or Khalifa); that the ummah has no choice in this matter-its only duty is TO FOLLOW such a divinely-appointed Imam or caliph.
The institution of Khalafah or Imamah is necessary, according to reason. It is lutf (grace) of Allah which brings the creature towards obedience and keeps him away from disobedience, without compelling the creature in any way. lutf is incumbent on Allah like Prophet hood, & the Holy books in their own times and Quran in current time. When Allah orders that man to do something yet is aware that man cannot do it or that it is very difficult without His assistance, then if Allah does not provide this assistance, He would be contradicting His own aim. Obviously, such negligence is evil according to reason. Therefore lutf is incumbent on Allah.
Khalafah/Imamah/Ummahâs Leadershi is a lutf, because as we know when men have a chief (raâis) and guide (murshid) whom they obey, who avenges the oppressed of their oppressor and restrains the oppressor, then they draw nearer to righteousness and depart from corruption.
And because it is a lutf, it is incumbent on Allah to appoint a Khalifa or Imam to guide and lead the ummah after the Prophet(PBUH&HF).
On the other hand, election implies choice and freedom, and that every Muslim has the right to elect the nominee. Whoever refuses to elect him does not oppose God or His Messenger because neither God nor His Messenger appointed the nominated person by people.
Election (or even any other method from man not from God), by its nature, does not compel any Muslim to elect a specific nominee. Otherwise, the election would be coercion. This means that the election would lose its own nature and it would be a dictatorial operation. It is well known that the Prophet said: âThere is no validity for any allegiance given by force.â
You said; the fard criteria of a candidate for leader are they must be free (Hurr), i.e. not a slave, mature (baaligh), sane (âaaqil), trustworthy (âadl), competent; and he must be muslim.
This does not mean a person inferior in these qualities can be elected or given bayâah in preference to a person having all these qualities of superior degree. A man individually or men collectively do not have the ability to judge these qualities; they cant determine the degree of these qualities because of lack of knowledge even though we can assume that they are loyal to the system; we can not say that they are superior to the Godâs knowledge and the knowledge given to his Prophet (PBUH&FH).
Like the Prophet(PBUH&HF), - because he is the Khalifa of Prophet (PBUH&HF); an Imam or Khalifa should excel the ummah in all virtues, such as knowledge, bravery, piety and charity, and should possess complete knowledge of the Divine Law. If he does not, and this high post is entrusted to a less perfect person when a more perfect one is available, the inferior will have been given preference over the superior, which is wrong in reason and against Divine Justice. Therefore, no inferior person may receive Imamate from Allah when there exists a person superior to him.
Wasalam
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
The example of the bridge in reality how are you going to set up an election over issue of buliding a bridge this is just nonsense, meaning every single issue in the state you have to have a vote or election how on earth will things get done! Wilyah and his deputies are their for a reason they are experts and there judgement is relied upon and that is why they have responsibilies on these kind of issues.
On question of criteria of a leader, does;nt mean he has to be superman if he meets the conditions metioned he can be elected as a khalifah so for example if a muslim in bangledesh or muslim in egypt who meets these conditions can be a candidate and if hundreds of candidates come forward no problem they will be wittled down untill the best one is selected.
Re: Voting allowed in Islam
^^
Bridge - this is not the issue. The issue is Validity â permissibility of conducting polls for issues. This is a separate issue that itâs sensible and feasible not.
for example "water" is Jaiz(halal) - also drinking too much water is also Jaiz (Halal)- but keep drinking water from morning to night is sensible or not.
Similarly Jumping is not Haram - but if you see a person (man or women) going to bus stop jumping. Obviously its not sensible. These are just examples. No need to discuss the lengthy details and finding the quality & quantity of water and types and classes of jumping. This will take us away from the real topic.
And regarding criteria for a leader â You do agree to find the best one and filter the list of 100s of candidates âuntil the best one is selectedâ. You call that best one â superman â or super-superman or whatever.
The things is only He is Allah who is the best â not the people - only Allah can appoint a successor to the Prophet (Imam or Khalifa); that the ummah has no choice in this matter-its only duty is TO FOLLOW such a divinely-appointed Imam or caliph.