Re: Voice of Sindh
For better resource management and administration .... The less space you have - more easy to handle it !
So, should the division be based on administrative realities or ethnic and linguistic basis as demanded by certain groups?
Re: Voice of Sindh
We need to change the mindset then :)
The name sindh doesnt stand any attraction in my eyes , if the residents are deprived from basic human rights and living necessities .
There is no guarantee that with change of name and Division of Sindh, people will get Man o Salwa.
No wonder - we are an emotional crowd ( I cant use the word Nation ) ...
Like what administrative steps , care to shed some light ?
I'm not from the policy making lot, neither this is the topic here.
We need to address grievances of all the stakeholders instead of blaming each other. Sindhis say they don't get rights, Non-Sindhis say they don't get rights. So they should require accountability of those who hold such resources.
Re: Voice of Sindh
We need to change the mindset then :)
The name sindh doesnt stand any attraction in my eyes , if the residents are deprived from basic human rights and living necessities .
Maybe for you sindh does not have any meaning, but it has historical connotations attached to it. If sindh is divided or not does not make any difference to me, but the thing is that for creating provinces you need to demarcate the area, in this case the new province will include both Sindhis and Mohajers. while mohajers support a new province the Sindhis don't, this problem should be solved politically otherwise there will be bloodshed.it's not a matter to be taken casually.
Re: Voice of Sindh
Piece of land is not important.. People are important.
If a vast majority of people aspire for something.. why not give their opinion some importance.
Presently the elected representatives of Karachi are not demanding a separate province. If some people are trying to mobilize public opinion towards this goal.. why confront them with violence. Let them do it.. and if they manage to change public opinion for their cause then give people what they want. I am afraid we Pakistanis need to be taught lessons in tolerating diversifying opinions..
Re: Voice of Sindh
So, should the division be based on administrative realities or ethnic and linguistic basis as demanded by certain groups?
Administrative only - not for creating constituencies or pleasing any ethnic group .
Re: Voice of Sindh
Maybe for you sindh does not have any meaning, but it has historical connotations attached to it. If sindh is divided or not does not make any difference to me, but the thing is that for creating provinces you need to demarcate the area, in this case the new province will include both Sindhis and Mohajers. while mohajers support a new province the Sindhis don't, this problem should be solved politically otherwise there will be bloodshed.it's not a matter to be taken casually.
For this reason I have proposed a minimum 2/3rd requirement in an open referendum from the residents of that area. I agree these matters can not be taken casually. It's important to fix certain criteria before opening this Pandora box..
Re: Voice of Sindh
^ I agree with you that public opinion should be sought through referendum or other means. If we see the map of sindh even if a province is formed having Karachi and Hyderabad thatta comes in between and the south sindh province that's being propagated includes Mirpurkhas, thatta, badin and tharparker all Sindhi majority areas.
Re: Voice of Sindh
Vast Majority of people don’t require this division. So why instigate their emotions?
I personally don’t have any issue for such demand as far changing public opinion is concerned. But the reasons given for such demand need to be evaluated further.
The main reason given for Division of Sindh is if there can be Saraiki province, why not Muhajir Province? But history tells us that there was demand for separate province in Sindh as early as 1950s when there was no talk of separate provinces in Pakistan and there were no grievances as are quoted by the supporters of such demand.
Re: Voice of Sindh
There is no guarantee that with change of name and Division of Sindh, people will get Man o Salwa.
And they arent getting it now either .... Common sense says ( speaking from my project management experience ) if you divide large projects into small chunks , you will get better resource management , tracking and control mechanism.
I'm not from the policy making lot, neither this is the topic here.
We need to address grievances of all the stakeholders instead of blaming each other. Sindhis say they don't get rights, Non-Sindhis say they don't get rights. So they should require accountability of those who hold such resources.
Keeping repeating this sindh and non sindhi talk and we wont get any where .... To me they all are Pakistanis ..... And I reckon to fill this divide , the names of provinces we have in Pakistan , should not reflect any ethnicity !
Re: Voice of Sindh
Vast Majority of people don't require this division. So why instigate their emotions?
I personally don't have any issue for such demand as far changing public opinion is concerned. But the reasons given for such demand need to be evaluated further.
The main reason given for Division of Sindh is if there can be Saraiki province, why not Muhajir Province? But history tells us that there was demand for separate province in Sindh as early as 1950s when there was no talk of separate provinces in Pakistan and there were no grievances as are quoted by the supporters of such demand.
I agree presently the elected representatives of Karachi are not making such a demand. But that doesn't mean we should suppress the opinion of even a single person who is making such demand through violence as some nationalist Sindhis are threatening. Let these people work for their cause.. and if they are successful in mobilizing public opinion according to their wish.. then give people what they want..
We should not judge if the the reasons are valid or invalid based on our personal opinions.. let the people decide..!!!
Re: Voice of Sindh
I agree presently the elected representatives of Karachi are not making such a demand. But that doesn't mean we should suppress the opinion of even a single person who is making such demand through violence as some nationalist Sindhis are threatening. Let these people work for their cause.. and if they are successful in mobilizing public opinion according to their wish.. then give people what they want..
We should not judge if the the reasons are valid or invalid based on our personal opinions.. let the people decide..!!!
Agree everyone should be free to express his opinion and try to change public opinion in his support.
Having said that nationalists just gave some emotional statements against the rallies for Muhajir Province carrying Map of divided Sindh on the basis of ethnicities. But their rally was attacked which was for united Sindh.
Rallies for division of Sindh were allowed to move in any zone, whereas rally for united Sindh was not allowed and got attacked. This is making things worse and making stakeholders more aggressive as against the just changing public opinion.
One more question why Muhajir Sooba tehreek including all the developed areas in their part (including those which are majority Sindhi area and don't want any such Division). If a movement is there for taking rights or whatever it should be fair to put it demand rather instigating the other stakeholders.
Re: Voice of Sindh
You know what is wrong with your way of thinking.. you are condemning people selectively. Sindhi Nationalist who are threatening blood shed and are instigating their supporters to kill in a battle field are giving mere emotional speeches according to you…
Mohajir in Pakistan - Hate speeches from Sindhi Nationalist on demand of Mohajir Province - YouTube
We should condemn violence on any sort of rally weather it is for United Sind or divided Sind.. these are mere opinions.. and everybody should be allowed to express their opinion in a peaceful manner..
However if sindhi nationalist leaders are threatening blood shed in battle fields and try to instigate their supporters to kill in open public rallies or any sort of media.. they should be arrested immediately. Furthermore media should boycott such an open call for violence against people..
Re: Voice of Sindh
Administrative only - not for creating constituencies or pleasing any ethnic group .
Administratively....
Option 1: Divide Sindh into eastern and western areas with River Sindh being the dividing line. Dadu being capital or Western Sindh and Nawabshah being capital or Eastern Sindh.
Option 2: Divide Sindh into Northern and Southern Sindh with Hyderabad being capital of south and Larkana or Sakhhar being capital of North.
These options are based primarily on administrative grounds and capitals chosen on basis of ease of access from all parts and for developing smaller towns of Sindh. This would also ease pressure on Karachi from people migrating from all over the province.
"Mohajir Sooba", I am sorry, but is not a province based on 'administrative' reasons.
Re: Voice of Sindh
Some people here are writing as if those who are living in Sindh since last 65 years, and whose father, grandfather or in some cases great-grand father migrated to Sindh are not Sindhis.
Whereas same people may not hesitate to call following people Sindhis, like:
Ubaidullah Sindhi who moved to Sindh from Sialkot at the age of 15 after converting to Islam from Sikhism, went to study in Deoband at 16 and returned when he was 19, lived in Sindh for 18 years and then left Sindh forever when he was 37 years old is Sindhi.
Zulfiqar Mirza whose grandfather migrated to Sindh from central Asia is Sindhi.
Z A Bhutto whose forefathers migrated to Sindh from Rajasthan is Sindhi
Zardari whose forefathers migrated to Sindh from Baluchistan is Sindhi
Talpur whose forefathers from Baluchistan invaded and occupied Sindh by force is Sindhi
G M Syed, Pir-Pagara, Amin Fahim, and many more whose ancestors invaded and occupied Sindh from Arabia are Sindhi
Most mentioned above moved to Sindh to loot, plunder or to make themselves prosperous on the resources of Sindh ... and still no one object about them being Sindhis.
On the other hand, Muhajirs who migrated to Sindh willingly from richer and developed area of Subcontinent (present day India) to poorer and under-developed area of subcontinent (present Sindh), not to loot and plunder but to make Sindh their homeland after sacrificing many in their family are not Sindhi. What is this farce?
Well, people of Sindh are getting pushed into India mainland since Islam reached Sindh. Result is that, literally millions migrated to present day India from Sindh since first invasion of Islam. Even after 1947, many million from Sindh migrated to present day India.
On the other hand, Muhajirs are first batch of people who migrated to Sindh in large number from present day India. Their migration is exchange of population and is not like migration of people to Sindh like Balochs, Arabs, Pakhtuns, Turks, Persians and other nationalities living in Sindh even though no one from Sindh migrated to areas they came from.
So, no one has any right to say that Muhajirs are not Sindhis. As for word Muhajir, people are using that for identity purpose only. One can say that Muhajirs are Sindhis tribe, just like many other tribes living in Sindh.
As for division of Sindh, that is nothing to do with Muhajirs but it is to do with government policies. If government would keep dividing Sindh into urban and rural areas, and keep discriminating with urban population of Sindh in one way or another, then it is obvious that discord would develop and then people would demand separate province.
As for adopting language and culture in Sindh, it is same with all who migrated to Sindh, that their language and culture became language and culture of Sindh. For instance, present day Sindhi full of Arabic and Persian words and Arabic/Persian writing script is not exactly the language of Raja Dahir’s Sindh. Rather present day Sindhi is a modified version of language that was used at time of Muslim invasion that changed after adopting many Arabic and other words from language of invading/migrating people.
Same with culture, that changed enormously after Muslim invasion, from Hindu culture to Muslim culture. Though over years, Muslim of SIndhi adopted many old Sindhi culture and culture of areas they migrated from (Baluchistan, Rajasthan, etc), making such culture as part of Muslim culture they adopted after Islam.
Thus, one can say that the culture and language Sindh received due to invasion/migration in past is now part of SIndh and in similar way culture and language Sindh received due to recent migration is also part of Sindh.
Some on this forum BS that people from rural areas find difficulty in getting admission/jobs in government controlled urban institutions and centres. But that is the result of urban and rural divide existing in Sindh. Actually, people from rural areas do get jobs in government controlled urban centres, especially when PPP is in power. But what about people from urban areas (Karachi, Hyderabad and Sukkur) who not only get difficulty but rarely get admission/jobs in government controlled rural institutions and centres.
I think, if people who want to see Sindh stay intact as one province, they should not just talk about united Sindh, but should talk about ending division in Sindh on urban/rural basis, so that all Sindhis can live together and could work for the benefit of each other.
Re: Voice of Sindh
I condemn violence and the reasons for instigating such violence (whoever did so).
And that is the question raised by Sindhi media and ignored by so called main stream media, why rallies and expressing opinion were allowed without any restrictions and a rally for United Sindh was restricted and got attacked.
If Muhajir Sooba demand got support, then United Sindh ideology also got support from all factions of life.
Re: Voice of Sindh
I don't know why non-Sindhis have to write fake lectures to prove they are Sindhis.. It should be perfectly ok to be non-Sindhi.. And reside in Sind.. Without being hounded by anyone..
People of Pakistan have one common identity.. They are Pakistanis.. After that it should be perfectly ok to be a bantwa Memon/punjabi/Sindhi/Shia/Sunni/Hindu/Parsi.. Others should respect and tolerate..
Re: Voice of Sindh
I don't know why non-Sindhis have to write fake lectures to prove they are Sindhis.. It should be perfectly ok to be non-Sindhi.. And reside in Sind.. Without being hounded by anyone..
People of Pakistan have one common identity.. They are Pakistanis.. After that it should be perfectly ok to be a bantwa Memon/punjabi/Sindhi/Shia/Sunni/Hindu/Parsi.. Others should respect and tolerate..
What do you mean by non-Sindhis and fake lectures? Whatever I wrote is true word by word. If Muhajirs are not Sindhi than no one who lives in Sindh are Sindhi as all who are living in Sindh are migrants.
A person who permanently live in Sindh and/or consider Sindh as their mother province is Sindhi. Period. Same is true regarding other provinces.
Anyhow, you are right that it should be perfectly OK to be non-Sindhis and reside in Sindh without being hounded by anyone. But there are big ifs and buts in between.
As long as Pakistan has four provinces with four governments each with their own domiciles and each having quota in federal jobs and share federal resources according to their population and each restricting people from other provinces to get education and jobs in their own provincial government educational institutions and departments, it is not OK for people from one province to push into other province.
As for this rhetoric that we are all Pakistanis first, and then after that we could be anything, then that is also true ... again with big ifs and Buts.
Nationality is official document, not ethnical, religious, linguistic or cultural document. For instance ... Pakistani Pathan and Afghani Pathan are same ethnically, religiously, linguistically, and culturally, but still they have different nationality.
So, we should see if according to official document, are all Pakistanis legally same with same right throughout Pakistan ... and answer is ‘No’ ... big 'NO'.
Pakistan is divided into four provinces, and division is such that legally they are more divided then American states or different countries in Europe continent (EEC members).
Most talk that Pakistan is one country (for cosmetic purpose) but most in Pakistan neither like that nor accept that especially if they feel they would lose out or their rights in their province would get compromised or even if they think their province would lose out ... anyhow, they would say that ‘Pakistan is one’ only when they want to take rights of other province (or rights of people in other province) what they do not want for themselves and for their province.
Division is such that, a Sindhi, Baloch, or Pathan cannot work or study in Punjab government institutions or government departments unless that person lives in Punjab for period of time and takes up Punjab domicile. It is like changing nationality, rather worse, as one can change nationality in less time than change domicile. Same is theoretically true with all provinces.
The reason Pakistan cannot build Kalabagh Dam and many other dams, cannot have uniform pay scale, even uniform electricity unit cost, could not share resources freely, etc ...etc ... etc ... because ‘Pakistan is not one’.
Actually, all provinces in Pakistan are so much independent (in theory) that they can legally stop movement of people and goods from their province to another province and vice versa.
So, Pakistan is not one country. If anyone wants that Pakistan becomes one country than they have to get constitutional laws in Pakistan change and it would be after many changes in law, Pakistan would become one undivided country. But then, it is unfortunate that what I believe people from all provinces have such mindset that they would not like the law to change in such way that Pakistan becomes one country.
Re: Voice of Sindh
Well said :k:
Re: Voice of Sindh
I agree with you.
http://dawn.com/2012/05/31/mohajir-province-conspiracy-against-sindh/
‘Mohajir province conspiracy against Sindh’
KARACHI, May 30: Sindh Taraqi Pasand Party chief Dr Qadir Magsi has said that Urdu-speaking people, whose three generations born here are not Mohajir any more, but Sindhis like those Balochs and Mughals whose ancestors had made Sindh their abode.
Those harping on ‘Mohajir mantra’ were not only conspiring against Sindh, but also pitting the people against each other, he added.
Dr Magsi, who was addressing a press conference at the Karachi Press Club on Wednesday, asked the proponents of ‘Mohajir’ philosophy “why they want to make future of their coming generations dark and gloomy and turn them into terrorists by taking away pen from their hands and giving them Kalashnikovs for the sake of power”.
He said that Sindh had remained for thousands of years a single entity and a motherland of 50 million people who would play their role to defend its unity.
Dr Magsi, who was seated with his party leaders Gulzar Soomro, Khair Mohammed Magsi and Bashir Sodha, said that his party was not a group of racists or based on ethnic politics, but it was a party of democrats and progressive people based on patriotism not like those who
were separatists.
He said that they believe in Pakistan and striving that all four nationalities could have a total control over their culture and economy and their languages could have the status of national language in the country.
He said that their party wanted the Pakistan where there should be no hatred against anyone and it become a cradle of peace.
Addressing youths of Karachi, Hyderabad and Sukkur and other institutions like the chambers of commerce and industry, he asked them to
come out of the web of ‘racist politics’.
He said that despite being the ‘sons of the soil’ they had not staged protests against the Mohajir province due to fears from someone.
He accused a PPP-government coalition partner of backing the creation of the Mohajir province and claimed that the Pakistan People’s Party was supporting its coalition partner on this issue.
He said that if the MQM was against the idea of Mohajir province, it should order its supporters to re move ‘Mohajir province’ graffiti from the walls in the city and posters and banners seeking the creation of the Mohajir province.
He also asked the MQM to withdraw its bill it had presented in the assembly to amend the constitution by deleting the article which barred
the creation of new provinces.
He said the PPP which had raised the Seraiki province issue and got passed a resolution in its support from the national assembly had no moral courage to talk on the division of Sindh.
The STPP chief warned that whenever any new province was carved out it would create a serious constitutional crisis and a need to work out a new constitution would emerge and before forming a new federation its constituent units had to be asked through plebiscite whether they wanted to be a constituent of the new federation.
Replying to a question, he said that the quota system was not based on ethnicity, but due to difference of facilities in educational institutions in rural and urban areas.
He said the STP was against the construction of any dam on the Indus River which would reduce water flow in the river.
Regarding the law and order situation in Karachi, he claimed that the situation could not improve because the police were comprised of those people who were under the oath of the MQM, the PPP and the ANP.
“If perpetrators of firing on Sindh Mohabat rally on May 22 in Lyari were not arrested, the FIR should be registered against the chief minister, the governor and the home minister,” he demanded and said the FIR of the murder of neurosurgeon Dr Aftab Qureshi was
registered against Ahmed Chinoy.
Re: Voice of Sindh
^^^
Is this the same Qadir Magsi who was threatening the other day on Talat Show that who-so-ever will demand Mohajir province.. we will meet them in battle field and "khoon ki nadian bha dein gay..!!!"...
Who needs to read lectures from this pathetic guy.. In any sane society this kind of person should be put immediately behind the bars being a threat to the society. Media should ban this person for making these violent suggestions..
It's disgusting people give importance to whatever this person is saying..