Village Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

[underthedome]

Re: Pakistan Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

@mAd_ScIeNtIsT

.

The girl’s mother can choose to follow this judgement or not, it is not legally binding. So can the girl. So can, in fact, the man.

Tthe article actual states that the mother has no say what-so-ever. Even if she did you know the ground reality of what happens if she rejects the order of the illegal villiage courts, and that is reason as any to stamp them out.

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

Re: Pakistan Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

@underthedome

These courts were banned in the early 1970’s so a law does exist in the books to go after those who disobey it. So explain why you defend them, fear of the state?

Whilst the courts are illegal, this is one of those unenforcible laws. Proof of a court’s existence, and judgements, are extremely hard to produce - villagers have a wall of silence.

[mAd_ScIeNtIsT]

Re: Pakistan Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

@underthedome

Tthe article actual states that the mother has no say what-so-ever. Even if she did you know the ground reality of what happens if she rejects the order of the illegal villiage courts, and that is reason as any to stamp them out.

The moment the police have wandered around the corner … the court would be back in session.

More to the point, the police in these communities are recruited from the very same communities that advocate illegal village courts.

And forcing policemen to live out in the countryside far from their own original home communities would be a surefire way to cause a slump in police recruitment.

[skhan]

Re: Pakistan Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

This is ridiculous. Regardless of the ages of the parties involved, justice is not carried out by forcing absurd marriages. Musharraf needs to concentrate on removing this panchayat system if he ever wants his dream of a liberal and enlightened Pakistan to materialize.

[underthedome]

Re: Pakistan Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

And how much of that wall of silence is based on fear?

I understand the situation in Pakistan is entirely complex, but the excuse and pardon of gross and unjust actions along with the acceptance of the system (village courts) that hand them down to the physically weakest members of society because laws can't "enforce" it from happening just doesn't fly, it’s simply a cowardly cop-out. .

[minah_pa]

Re: Pakistan Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

UTD - I married a man who was born in a tribal community, I understand what he is saying about hard it would be to enforce

however

M_S - I also know things can change, slowly and with protests, apathy or shrugging the shoulders isn't a reason for not protecting people who need protection

[Zakk]

Re: Pakistan Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

Hmm Maddy I understand some of your arguments but they are factually incorrect ( don't confuse my argument with some of the personal attacks against you that some posters in this thread seems to be going for)

There are laws against this and those laws have been around for ages, firstly tribal Councils to my knowledge of Punjab do not have any legal status in comparable to Baloch and Sarhad Tribal areas I believe they are called A or B category regions. The running of a parallel judicial system in a settled area even if it had valid reasons is a crime in itself (to be fair though with the average case being decided in four years in Pakistan..a forced marriage is one of the milder fates a person can endure in Pakistani prison) ..

Legally the situation is even more black and white the Child Marriage Restraint Act, , marriages of women under the age of 16 are prohibited. According to that law a girl child on attaining majority can also repudiate her child marriage.

The Child Marriage restraint act was actually supported by one well known historical figure:
He said " ... cannot believe that there can be a divine sanction for such evil practices as are prevailing… we should not, for a single minute, give our sanction to the continuance of these evil practices any longer. If my constituency is so backward as to disapprove of a measure like this then I say, the clearest duty on my part would be to say to my constituency, 'You had better ask somebody else to represent you.'

(Muhammad Ali Jinnah , 1929)

[Faisal]

Re: Pakistan Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

@Zakk

" … cannot believe that there can be a divine sanction for such evil practices as are prevailing… we should not, for a single minute, give our sanction to the continuance of these evil practices any longer. If my constituency is so backward as to disapprove of a measure like this then I say, the clearest duty on my part would be to say to my constituency, ‘You had better ask somebody else to represent you.’"

(Muhammad Ali Jinnah , 1929)

I am impressed (yet again) by the clarity of his convictions. No wishy washy attitude there.

[Roman]

Re: Pakistan Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

( don't confuse my argument with some of the personal attacks against you that some posters in this thread seems to be going for)

I repeat: Onslaught on idiocy is a moral imperative. Reasoning is a privilege only for the reasonable.

[Khatmal]

Re: Pakistan Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

reminds me of texas

[system]

Re: Pakistan Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

@underthedome

Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

But that innocence will be shortlived if local elders have their way, because Rabia is already** promised in marriage - to a man 38 years her senior**. A village court determined her fate after her uncle, Muhammad Akmal, was accused of sleeping with another man’s wife. After an hour-long deliberation, the elders found him guilty and fined him 230,000 rupees (£2,070). They also ordered him to marry his niece to the wronged man, 40-year-old Altaf Hussain, once she passed her 14th birthday.

Rabia’s mother, Maqsood Mai, who is separated from her husband, had no say in the matter. But her other uncles were furious.

But the justice rendered is often rough, say human rights activists, who say panchayats favour the rich, fuel old notions of bloody revenge, and perpetuate feudal inequalities.

Panchayat decisions can be as bizarre as they are cruel. A panchayat in Lodhran district last year ordered seven women to divorce their husbands, in an effort to end a feud between two clans with marriage ties. Their 25 children were handed over to the fathers.

In another case, a woman claimed by two rival men had her fate decided by the flip of a coin. Panchayats are also central to the phenomenon of karo kari, or honour killings.

Oxfam estimates that between 1,200 and 1,800 women are murdered by their relatives every year in the name of preserving family honour. Many killings are sanctioned by village courts.

The most notorious “honour” case of recent years concerned Mukhtaran Bibi, a 29-year-old Punjabi woman who in 2002 was gangraped on the orders of her local panchayat.

Rabia’s (the 2year old girl) UNCLE (Sex: Male, Specie: Man, Status: Unknown, Religion: Islam, Nationality: Pakistani) was found guilty of sleeping with another man’s wife, as a punishment Rabia has been promised in marriage to 40year old Altaf Hussein (not to be confused with mqm leader) whose “honour” has been violated.

Story has left a few important aspects uncovered:

1. Uncle (Horny’s) age?
2. What happened to the women he is guilty of sleeping with?
3. What happens to our sanctimonious mullas whenever panchyats decide cases such as these in clear violation of Islamic edicts?
4. Why is male honor satisfied by defiling their womanfolk?
5. Why not force Uncle Horny to become Altaf’s “BITCH/KEEP/PUPPOO”?
6. How come prostitution is legal by orders of Panchyat (fined him 230,000 rupees (£2,070) and is readily acceptable by society (Mullas in particular)?
7. Why are we stuck in the semantics of this case?
8. Where is civil society in Pakistan?

If I was on the Panchyat, I would give Uncle Horny to the grieving (sure, he cant wait till rabia comes of age) man for him to plow and reap…

[minah_pa]

Re: Village Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

Zakk - thank you for clearing some things up for us, very well written. Would you happen to know why most of the posters here believe 14 is the legal age for a marriage?

fartguru - you rock, man

[Judge_MentuLL_2]

Re: Village Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

Hello people. As the only one here who even comes close to being legally qualified, I'd like to point out that Mad Scientist is perfectly correct in his legal analysis. Anyone who referred to him as a dimwit totally missing the crucial point would be risking punitive punishment from the authorities of this board. Anyone referring to him as a tosser would also rightly be punished so I should warn all here from refraining from these actions.

Thank you

The Judge

[cat-woman]

Re: Village Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

^ all we need is a jury now.

[underthedome]

Re: Village Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

I thought Judge_MentuLL retired and went to animal court.

[myvoice]

Re: Pakistan Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

@mAd_ScIeNtIsT

very well, let me rework the bogey case.

5 friends are in a room, somewhere in the USA. One of them has his 1-year old son with them.

One of them flicks a bogey at another. Three of them declare the offender to be guilty of bogey flicking and sentence his son to do 5 press-ups once he is 8 years old.

When the kid reaches that age, the bogey flicker takes his son aside and explains that unless the kid does 5 press-ups, then he will be excluded from that group of friends.

The kid then does 5 press-ups.

Have any laws been broken?

MS: What you have touched upon but not highlighted is the fact that the girl, when she reaches the ripe old age of 14, really does not have a voluntary choice to make in the society in which she lives. If she does not “voluntarily” get married to the old geezer, she has dishonored herself and her family and the next thing is an honor killing (also probably ordered [or maybe just “recommended”] by the village elders). And, of course, the killers would be acting voluntarily and of their own free will since the “recommendation” of the village court/elders is not legally binding.

So, in your example above, it would be more accurate if the father told the child when he reached 8 years of age that either he voluntarily did the 5 push ups or he would be killed.

If you are right that no laws have been broken by having such a thing happen, all I can say is that some law SHOULD have been broken. A system that does not have laws to protect children from these kinds of abuses is simply flawed.

[ChannMahi]

Re: Pakistan Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

@Roman

What I said it that the system works within the framework of the law of a civilised state.

Hahahaha! Great civilization indeed.

think this way..when he 54, she will be 16…don’t tell me you don’t want to be in that civilization.

but yeah..2 yr to a 40 yr old is sick and pathetic…yuck.

[ChannMahi]

Re: Village Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

5 press ups is equivalent to forced sex with a minor?

wah kiya baat hai

[Surya]

Re: Village Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

Asking the son to do push-ups for the mistakes of his father is not justice either. So when people dispensing justice pass such crazy justice and still people think that the law is not broken, means there is something wrong with the law itself and of course with people's thinking.

[jackie]

Re: Village Court awards hand of girl aged two to 40-year-old

the village court order has no legal binding but if the girl says no, she and a couple other relatives will probably be raped or killed. in many cases a man has sex with some girl, to punish the guy they usually rape one of his lady relatives. but since the guys who carried out the rape had sex with some girl shouldnt they be punished and shouldnt one of their lady relatives be raped.