Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
Before coming on this site, I thought all Syeds are Shias, as I lived and known shia muslims most of the life, a few ahemadis :)
Syeds are Shias and Sunnis, both.
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
Syeds are Shias and Sunnis, both.
Ulema of shias who are syeds wear black turban right?
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
Ulema of shias who are syeds wear black turban right?
yes. any link with 'kali kamli' we hear in Naats
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
Syeds are Shias and Sunnis, both.
So can shia syed and sunni syed marry each other??
Ulema of shias who are syeds wear black turban right?
Ayatollah Khomeini
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
So can shia syed and sunni syed marry each other??
Ayatollah Khomeini
well I have seen a few marriages between Shias and Sunnis. But this goes for other castes as well.
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
Ulema of shias who are syeds wear black turban right?
Ulemas of Shias wear black turbans, but I am sure these ulemas would include non syed ulema as well.
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
well I have seen a few marriages between Shias and Sunnis. But this goes for other castes as well.
That means a little strict but not too strict :)
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
^ most people prefer marriages in the same sect as its easier to adjust. In mix marriages it becomes difficult to raise the children in a particular faith.
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
^ most people prefer marriages in the same sect as its easier to adjust. In mix marriages it becomes difficult to raise the children in a particular faith.
Completely agree :D
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
^Apse behtar kaun janega...:D
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
Maleccha, means someone who does the dirty work of cleaning, and it is sanskrit word
Reminds me of Sir VS Naipaul
The road were unclean because of sunday sweeper (belonging to certain caste) haven't come, because in India, it is unclean to clean, it is unclean even to look at it From, India a wounded civlization
Beg to differ, Mlechha originally and technically means foreigner, barbarian or one outside the traditional value system (hindu version of kafir or unbeliever). Mlechhas were people outside the Vedic system of belief. The Sakas, Huns and Indo-Greeks were all Mlechhas. Mlechhas were also people who drank alchohol or ate the flesh of cow-beef and followed different teachings than the Vedic beliefs. After the arrival of Islam, social reformers of medieval India like Chaitanya Mahaprabhu used to that term to include muslims also. Al biruni himself noted that foreigners (who were mostly muslim in those days) were regarded as Mlechha and Indians were forbidden to have any social or matrimonial contact with them.
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
There is nothing wrong with caste system if practiced as was mentioned in the vedas. It is only the discrimination based on caste system that is heinous.
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
Beg to differ, Mlechha originally and technically means foreigner, barbarian or one outside the traditional value system (hindu version of kafir or unbeliever). Mlechhas were people outside the Vedic system of belief. The Sakas, Huns and Indo-Greeks were all Mlechhas. Mlechhas were also people who drank alchohol or ate the flesh of cow-beef and followed different teachings than the Vedic beliefs. After the arrival of Islam, social reformers of medieval India like Chaitanya Mahaprabhu used to that term to include muslims also. Al biruni himself noted that foreigners (who were mostly muslim in those days) were regarded as Mlechha and Indians were forbidden to have any social or matrimonial contact with them.
so maleech is foreigner. If its someone outside vedic beliefs than why they didn't use this term for Sikhs?
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
Some information of Mleechas according to Ahmed Dani’s book…History of Pakistan - Pakistan through the ages
Restored attachments:
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
As far as I can figure out Mleechas were the original people of the Indus Valley civilization, who were discriminated against using the strict caste system.
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
so maleech is foreigner. If its someone outside vedic beliefs than why they didn't use this term for Sikhs?
Who said that it is not used for Sikhs? Punjab region which saw the settlement of so many foreigners was by 12th century designated as Mlechha desh. Even the staple food was given a low ranking and wheat which was mostly eaten in Punjab during that time was called "Food of the Mlechhas" :D . Usually, it took a couple of generations for settlers to lose their Mlechha statuses especially for the ruling families. Their children were given sanskritised names, they adopted local beliefs and slowly intermarried. But with the arrival of Islam, the invaders and those who came to rule did not adopt the local values and beliefs instead they tried to make local people adopt their beliefs. So the lines between Mlechhas and non mlechhas became more established,
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
As far as I can figure out Mleechas were the original people of the Indus Valley civilization, who were discriminated against using the strict caste system.
You believe wrong. Caste system started becoming rigid only after 100 AD long after the Indus valley civilization had disappeared. Even during the Chandra gupta maurya's time, caste was not the abomination we see to day. Megasthenes the Greek ambassador to Chandragupta Maurya's court classified people of India into seven castes: philosophers, peasants, herdsmen, craftsmen and traders, soldiers, government officials and councilors in his book Indika. In its later stages, the caste system is said to have become rigid, and caste began to be inherited rather than acquired by merit which was originally the case. Caste system was not set up to be inherited but acquired depending on your work capabilities.
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
Beg to differ, Mlechha originally and technically means foreigner, barbarian or one outside the traditional value system (hindu version of kafir or unbeliever). Mlechhas were people outside the Vedic system of belief. The Sakas, Huns and Indo-Greeks were all Mlechhas. Mlechhas were also people who drank alchohol or ate the flesh of cow-beef and followed different teachings than the Vedic beliefs. After the arrival of Islam, social reformers of medieval India like Chaitanya Mahaprabhu used to that term to include muslims also. Al biruni himself noted that foreigners (who were mostly muslim in those days) were regarded as Mlechha and Indians were forbidden to have any social or matrimonial contact with them.
Atheism in part of Hinduism, the definition of atheism in hinduism is the one who does not have belief in Vedas. Indika by megasthanese seems to be western understanding of Hinduism, unlike Al-Baruni, Megasthanese was not trained in Sanskrit and Al-Beruni's writings never mentioned the seven varnas, he wrote it correctly.
You believe wrong. Caste system started becoming rigid only after 100 AD long after the Indus valley civilization had disappeared. Even during the Chandra gupta maurya's time, caste was not the abomination we see to day. Megasthenes the Greek ambassador to Chandragupta Maurya's court classified people of India into seven castes: philosophers, peasants, herdsmen, craftsmen and traders, soldiers, government officials and councilors in his book Indika. In its later stages, the caste system is said to have become rigid, and caste began to be inherited rather than acquired by merit which was originally the case. Caste system was not set up to be inherited but acquired depending on your work capabilities.
The difference between Ramayana and Mahabharat is the rigidity with which caste system. Valmiki, the writer of Ramayan was Dalit, but Karna was Sut-Putra through out the text, Draupadi declared that she won't marry even if he hit the fish, nor was Eklavya the tribal was granted access to ashram of Dronacharya. So what when was Mahabharat conceptualized
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
The difference between Ramayana and Mahabharat is the rigidity with which caste system. Valmiki, the writer of Ramayan was Dalit, but Karna was Sut-Putra through out the text, Draupadi declared that she won't marry even if he hit the fish, nor was Eklavya the tribal was granted access to ashram of Dronacharya. So what when was Mahabharat conceptualized
The Mahabharatha is full of contradictions. It is not as you yourself once described not black and white. It is full of moral ambiguities Veda Vyasa who along with composing the epic was also responsible for classifying or holy books into 4 books was the son of a fisherwoman. Vidura the wise who was the royal advisor was the son of a lady-in-waiting. Lord Krishna himself was a cowherd and the Yadavas are classified as backward caste if I am not wrong. Yes Karna was taunted as Suta putra but how much was it political? Duryodhana made him his best friend and also the King of Anga region. Ekalavya was rejected by Dhrona. But he was made a confidant of King Jarasanda.
Many passages in Mahabharata describes the flexible caste system which
in later periods was totally forgotten by the Indian society. An
example is the conversation between Yudhisthira and Naga Nahusha
(3:179):-
Naga:- "O Yudhishthira, say, Who is a Brahmana ?"
Yudhishthira"-"O foremost of Nagas, he, it is asserted by the wise, in
whom are seen truth, charity, forgiveness, good conduct, benevolence,
observance of the rites of his order and mercy is a Brahmana. "
Naga:-** "O Yudhishthira, truth, charity, forgiveness, benevolence,
benignity, kindness and the Veda which worketh the benefit of the four
orders, which is the authority in matters of religion and which is
true, are seen even in the Sudra.**
Yudhishthira:- "Those characteristics that are present in a Sudra, do
not exist in a Brahmana; nor do those that are in a Brahmana exist in
a Sudra. And a Sudra is not a Sudra by birth alone, nor a Brahmana is
Brahmana by birth alone. He, it is said by the wise, in whom are seen
those virtues is a Brahmana. And people term him a Sudra in whom those
qualities do not exist, even though he be a Brahmana by birth."
Naga:- "O king, if thou recognise a person as a Brahmana by
characteristics, then, O long-lived one, the distinction of caste
becometh futile as long as conduct doth not come into play."Yudhishthira:- "In human society, O mighty and highly intelligent
Naga, it is difficult to ascertain one’s caste, because of promiscuous
intercourse among the four orders. This is my opinion. Men belonging
to all orders beget offspring upon women of all the orders. And of
men, speech, sexual intercourse, birth and death are common. And to
this the Rishis have borne testimony by using as the beginning of a
sacrifice such expressions as—of what caste so ever we may be, we
celebrate the sacrifice. Therefore, those that are wise have asserted
that character is the chief essential requisite. The natal ceremony of
a person is performed before division of the umbilical cord. His
mother then acts as its Savitri and his father officiates as priest.
He is considered as a Sudra as long as he is not initiated in the
Vedas. Doubts having arisen on this point, Naga , Swayambhuba Manu has
declared, that the mixed castes are to be regarded as better than the
other castes, if having gone through the ceremonies of purification,
they do not conform to the rules of good conduct, O excellent Naga!
Whosoever now conforms to the rules of pure and virtuous conduct, him
have I, here now, designated as a Brahmana."
Re: Victims of caste system in Punjab
Muqawee can you please move this post to the history of Pakistan thread.