Thanks Old_Man very decent of you.
Although, not my place I will say that the name of the thread is a little accusatory...a question mark or two might help tone down this 'flaming'.
[quote]
Originally posted by Thap:
**Thanks Old_Man very decent of you.
Although, not my place I will say that the name of the thread is a little accusatory...a question mark or two might help tone down this 'flaming'.**
[/quote]
You could be right, Thap. Problem is that I can't change it now. Maybe the Moderators can?
Anyway, the topic should basically only be accusatory towards one segment of the Christian faith, namely the Catholic part - that's why I stated on my first post an apology/correction as to my motives.
Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all
Dear All,
Firstly I assume this thread was started because this thread http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/004343.html was being evaded which had the same overtones and I touched on one part of the questions on that thread and that thread ended being framed as it must be on only that issue and not on any other issue by old man.
Second my assertion on this thread has been that you cannot slant this to accuse ONLY the Catholics ** ( that would be unjust) ** as the problem is due to the ** Scripture (Bible ) the CORE for any faith** , being edited and adjusted according to the whims and fancies of Christians and not only by Catholics . For which I have given irrefutable evidence.
** To make it simple and to be just what I have been saying is that the Christian scripture is being modified to suit the masses from ancient times and as such all those who have placed their faith in it are being misled not just the catholic sect. **
This is not flame!. Old man played nick nack on my thumb
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
earlier and started this thread to focus on what is hidden and I responded to his last question which was
Old man asked: * Do they hide facts from the common people and it’s own religious constituency?*
My reply to what was hidden applied to all of Christianity and by taking this approach I am being “just” and not just accusing one sect albeit they may have other problems too.
The understanding that anything written by me would amount to flame, blaspheme or slander is misconceived in my view and does not apply in this thread as we are trying to ** determine the TRUTH as to why Christians/Catholics are erring as a whole. I repeat just pointing the finger at one sect is “unjust” in my view although they may have gone further astray from the rest.** If anything said by me can be proven as false, blaspheme , slander or flame , that I am waiting to see.
Once the fact that the core problem is due to bible (scripture) corruption and modification of revealed texts by a select few, ** ( in which case you cannot blame the masses for erring can we? )** then we can look deeper into what some Christians do that others do not.
** DO you agree, that the Bible is not the accurate word of God, old man? **
Regards
Ibrahim
** we fall constantly even when we are most enlightened. But when we are in true spiritual darkness, we do not even know that we have fallen **
[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited February 01, 2002).]
Ibrahim can you inform us of some sites which tell about the errors in the bibles. Thanks.
BTW I really am hooked on this topic.
The official party line of Catholics, circa
the early 20th century can be acessed at www.newadvent.org/cathen/ of which an apology
(explanation) can be read on each topic. Some
idea of the orthodox Catholic Church can be
formulated from this encyclopedia.
Ibrahim says Greetings of Peace to one and all
Dear Mr laparwa kindly visit
http://www.geocities.com/zcdeen/islam012.htm http://www.geocities.com/zcdeen/islam014.htm for many links on such matters .
Kindly also note that Atheist have vast collections about Bible and Christianity but are not normally linked by Muslims or Islamic web sites. They have even published an X- Rated Bible, totally based on Bible texts.
** In addition a contradiction found in one bible may not exist in another bible, since that bible may have already been altered to remove that contradiction. **
which will lead us to ask ourselves which Bible? I will start new thread for you to ponder on such issues.
Was salaam
Ibrahim
Ibrahim says: Greetings of peace to one and all
Dear Old man, I assume it has to do with their moderation policies and is good that we are kept in check and is also possible some “ Famous” individuals on this forum may have complained that we are having too much freedom
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
Ibrahim says: this is the crux of the matter, when we understand that God had assigned a particular person to record HIS words than those words will remain as is and ** there will be NO ROOM for confusion (being the original texts) ** , until it is altered for some reason or another.
Thus when that original is missing and one needs to put together such works from memory or from bits and pieces of texts that are found at various places and times ** are we not able to accept the fact that God had abrogated that message? **
If we fail to acknowledge this we are in fact saying God has neglected His Creation or worse still God is incompetent ( May God forgive us for such thoughts)
Let us read to note what God established form ancient times.
Numbers 23:19. ** God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man ( Jesus Christ) , that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?**
Thus
-
God does not lie
-
God does not change his mind like Christ or any other creation
-
God’s words come true
-
God Fulfills his promise to mankind
Meaning
1 Corinthians 14:33 For ** God is not the author of confusion** but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
As such when we read what is currently found written in the Bible , ** it is Total CONFUSION ** so much so 30,000 (?) denominations have established themselves on this planet even though the Prophesy is that only 72 denominations ( according to the 72 that Christ sent out to preach) will be found amongst Christians.
will you deny this old man?
What I am getting at is, since God said, He does not author confusion and we find total confusion in the current Bible and amongst Christians, it means what we have with us as the Bible today is not God’s message as given to us but a message put together by a select few man who had altered the given message to suit their purpose.
Will you deny this Old man?
Ibrahim says; Old man
-
have you not been able to locate the originals/source for them?
-
Or do you believe there are numerous various originals too given by God?
-
Does this not tell you that Christians are confused as such they have to allow the confusion?
-
Failing which each denomination will demand to see what right anyone has to say they have the accurate word with them when the source itself is doubtful?
Best regards
Ibrahim
** who can protest and does not is an accomplice in that act **
The proliferation of translations of the
Bible is not directly proportional to the
denominations of Christianity. Protestants
did not necessarily branch off due to their
translations, but with interpretation and
where emphasis of meaning of the same words
caused dissent. Version and translation, at
certain points could be interchangeable.
[This message has been edited by TOMASSO (edited February 03, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by TOMASSO:
The proliferation of translations of the Bible is not directly proportional to the
denominations of Christianity.
[/quote]
Ibrahim says: greetings of peace to one and all
Hi Tomasso, Kindly find out the difference between translations and versions. Then find out how the versions vary and what caused such variations to come about when the message given by God can only be one and having 4 Gospels in the NT itself , tells us the root cause for such variations when Christ would have only conveyed One Gospel not 4 gospels.
As far as I know many denominations , due to lack of resources do not print their own version of the Bible but use one that comes closer to their point of view . The bottom line being No Christian sect actually reads the entire Bible but concentrate on the favorite passages which have been adjusted to suit their way of thought to keep their flock under their wings.
Which is why the Bible is considered a forbidden book in the seminary
Regards
Ibrahim
Hello Ibrahim
For most of the weekend this thread was shortened and I’m glad that the moderators decided we can continue by not closing the thread. I am sure that the issues raised can be discussed in a civilized and non-confrontational manner and I would appreciate it if the moderators can bear with me, Ibrahim, and others - even if each post might be in general longer than normal.
BTW: Wonder who might this famous person be?
Humans and their attributes are not Godlike and therefor the mere fact of using humans or their attributes (such as language, translation skill, intellect, memory, etc.) in any way, logically results in that whatever God gives to humanity has a tendency of being not 100% as per Gods will. For this matter, God Himself TWICE rather wrote the Law for Moses, and also gave a physical example as to how the ark of the Covenant should be build. ANY other written piece, not done by God’s hand, therefor can be suspect - that includes the Bible and the Qu’ran even if you do have the original paper safely stored. (BTW: I will refrain from writing anything negative about the Qu’ran as to being the perfect copy from Allah-to-Mohammed-to-us, out of respect for any Muslim and their believes on these boards.)
In the case of the Bible there is a general theme right from Genesis to Revelation. In choosing the books that were combined in the Bible, this fact was taken under consideration as well as other factors. As soon as new discoveries are made that bring to the fore older manuscripts, translators HAVE to check their translations and sometimes revise the text if proven that the present text is not accurate. Up to now, NONE of any of these changes has had the effect to make ANY change to the major doctrinal issues of Christianity - AND ALL THESE DOCUMENTS ARE OPEN FOR SCRUTINY TO ALL, even enemies of the accuracy of the Bible such as yourself.
God did not do anything. It is the obligation of humanity to be able to adapt as soon as better material are available in order to get closer to the original, which Christianity has done with the Bible. Remember also that Christianity will survive even without the Bible! They did for the first 300 years after Christ anyway. How? Christianity does not rely on a book to guide them but rather God Himself through the Holy Spirit. That’s why Paul could write: Gal.3v13-14 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Curses is everyone who is hanged on a tree.” He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Jesus Christ, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit Also read John.14v26 But the Councillor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you In a sense having the Bible caused Christians to highlight different doctrines more than others by debating from Scriptures while relying on their own intellect and not the Holy Spirit, and therefor started all different denominations. I once read a letter of an old retired preacher that wrote: The Bible have nowadays become the supreme authority and preachers and synods take decisions “in the light of the Word”…It’s unfortunately true: the Bible can lead to confusion due to human interpretation. Jesus himself never confuse and mislead anyone. May the day come that Jesus and his teachings be restored to the head of the church and that everyone live by having a personal relationship with him (and not the Bible). I concur with him on his sentiments.
God is not human and when He speak of certain traits and attributes which we humans recognize in us, we always need to realize this. For example: If God say he “hate”, it is not our human “hate” which often is sin, God’s “love” is never sin while human’s sometimes are. Looking at above quotation which is: God is not a man that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should change His mind Num23v19, we have the following scenario:
- God is not man…nor a son of man - correctly pointing out that what immediately follows should be considered not in the “human” manner.
- that He should change His mind - IN THIS CASE
Balak wanted God to change His mind and curse Israel whom He previously has blessed. God in this instance still stand with His original position as that Israel should remain blessed BECAUSE HIS PROMISES TO ISRAEL HAS NOT BEEN COMPLETED YET. He had an honour bound oath to Israel to keep (Ex.3v17) and Balaam as vessel through whom God worked, had to do as God originally intended. God cannot lie (although He might use other methods to circumvent this 2Chron.18v18-22), change His promises even when it is more convenient for Him or to His advantage, and He will always fulfil His obligations in all covenants and promises. In short, God “is not a man” and does not have the attributes of man.
God “changing” His mind on an issue? Please look at 2Kings20v1-6. God being a compassionate God, it sometimes will appear as if He “change” His mind. Ez.33v13-15 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. And if I say to the wicked man, “You will surely die”, but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right…he will surely live; he will not die.
30 000 denominations
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/rolleyes.gif
72 denominations because 72 were send out? No basis for stating this.
It is Christians that need to be blamed for creating all these denominations not the Bible - last I look the Christians are all still human with human errors and traits. Often new denominations are established due to cultural, linguistic, or other plausible reasons. The fact of the matter though is that Christ’s Church is not a denomination or sect but rather the body of all believers. I well remember some 25 years ago when attending a certain assembly/denomination and seeing that they intend to take the lord’s Supper, and realizing that certain denominations has some very strict rules who may attend and who not, I asked the Pastor whether I could partake. His response was that it was open for anyone that loves Jesus Christ as it is Christ’s table not the denomination’s.
As to “total confusion” - nah, not really for those that has a personal relationship with God. You see, you actually don’t understand the major difference between Judaism and Islam on the one hand, and Christianity on the other. Both Judaism and Islam are based on rules and regulations - you must do this, you may not do that. Because of this, both these religions need people to lay out the rules and regulations for people to keep it and therefor both these religions need additional scriptures to help clarify namely the Hadiths, and the Talmud. Christians has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that “teach” and “lead” as you go. It’s a much more “living” religion. One of the major problems obviously is that people that are inexperienced and do not “know” the voice of the Holy Spirit, can transgress and even go off on a tangent. The Bible is used in order to help the inexperienced/young Christian to learn to recognise the Holy Spirit as well as for the experienced in order to know God and to continually test himself relative to false doctrines and errors. See John.10v3b-5 He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. But they will never follow a stranger; in fact they will run away from him because they do not recognise a stranger’s voice. as well as Gal.3v2325 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.
Sorry for the long post, will in future be shorter even if it does mean answering only part of your post.
Hello Ibrahim
Translation means the writing of any piece of writing from one language to another - period. Using this, common English usuage of the word, does mean that the majority of Bibles ARE translations.
Nonsense, Ibrahim.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
It might be true for some but no generalization please.
Salaam old man. Very interesting thoughts !
I just wonder does Ahmed Deedat still preach in SA these days? (maybe catwoman will Know) For those of you who havent heard of him, He has written books on islam and Christianity and takes part in debates.
[This message has been edited by Dil he Pakistani (edited February 03, 2002).]
Salaam Dil he Pakistani
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
I don’t know whether Ahmed Deedat is still in RSA. maybe some other poster can help?
I have read some parts which he wrote and also listened to him discussing issues.
I remember one of his lectures at Uni many years ago. I think he spoke of quite a number of issues relating to differences between Christianity and Islam. He was one of the few muslims who openly debated with people of other faiths.
Ibrahim says : Greetings of Peace to one and all
Hi Old man.
You seem to have misconceived God’s capabilities. That is why God chooses the Prophets and guides them from childhood and they ONLY become prophets at the age of 40, meaning they have been tested for 40 years prior tp being appointed and even after that, the message given to them are recorded as given to them by God’s decrees and not by their own endeavors
** So there is NO ROOM WHATSOVER for man’s misconception at the time of revelation and for some period of time immediately after the Prophet. **
The reason why revelations are compiled by the disciples of the Prophet and not directly by the Prophet should be obvious. This has to do with the fact that revelations are revealed so long as the Prophet is alive and his disciples are also chosen to undertake the compilations as directed by God .
Ibrahim says: Have to disagree with you old man . All revelations are from God, immaterial of how they were transferred to mankind. In the case of Moses (pbuh) God spoke direct and may have done so in other times too but that does not mean the message delivered by the Holy Spirit (archangel) was something other then from God.
Ibrahim says : that is a misconception on your part. The revelation given by God cannot be altered ever and has never been altered ever . What takes places is that when man tries to alter it, the originals disappear from the nation it was entrusted to at one time frame and the same originals is given to another nation in another tongue by way of repeated revelations as was given to the earlier prophet in the past . In this manner many revelations will be kept by many nations but only the Original will remain INTACT (as is), the rest will be altered messages. Which is what we see on this planet today.
Ibrahim says: which is what I refuted here http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/Forum13/HTML/004343.html and you evaded it , now If you want to discuss them, feel free to do so. I hope I do not need to post them here too.
Ibrahim says; LOL! What are you saying old man? If God did not do anything you an I won’t be here neither will there be anything existing, ever.
Ibrahim says: you seem utterly mistaken old man!. Read the passages where Christ himself uses the scroll of Isaiah to preach and establish his authority. But sure all beliefs will survive so long as someone wished to practice them BUT that does not mean it will be THE TRUTH or have sound doctrines, would it?. Don’t you see Hindus, today will tell you there do not need scripture to practice Hinduism?
Ibrahim says: hmm and if that was the case where did the Gospel come from?
Ibrahim says; Sorry Old man , Galatians is an epistle that got added into the bible later on and Paul’s works run contrary to Christ teachings.
Ibrahim says : ** which is actually a prophesy about prophet Muhammad. (pbuh)**
Ibrahim says Old man, 2 kings 20:1to 6 is in accordance with Gods mercy for mankind as revealed by God and not a change in mind so is Ez 33:13-15
Ibrahim says: forgetting the (?) . the research done by researchers and recorded in encyclopedia Britannica in the 80’s was about 21,000 denominations with the assertion that it was growing by leaps and bounds.
Ibrahim says: Kindly Read, Luke 10 : 1. After this the** Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ** ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
Ibrahim says LOL! So all 30,000 (?) denominations are having the same notions or are they not having any personal relationship with God at all?
Ibrahim says: So according to you Christ was teaching nonsense when he preached this?
Matthew 5: 17.
** "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. **
-
I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, **not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law ** until everything is accomplished.
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Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, ** but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. **
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For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, ** you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. **
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"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’
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** But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment.** Again, anyone who says to his brother,
Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. ** But anyone who says,You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.** -
"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
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leave your gift there in front of the altar.** First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift. **
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"Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison.
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** I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny. **
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"You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.’
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** But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. **
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If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.
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And if your right hand causes you to sin, ** cut it off and throw it away.** It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
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"It has been said, `Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’
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** But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery. **
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"Again, you have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not break your oath, but keep the oaths you have made to the Lord.’
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** But I tell you, Do not swear at all:** either by heaven, for it is God’s throne;
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or by the earth, for it is his footstool; or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the Great King.
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And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make even one hair white or black.
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Simply let your
Yes' beYes,’ and yourNo,'No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one. -
"You have heard that it was said, `Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’
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** But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. **
Ibrahim says: I can continue, if you have not read this in your bible? ** What all this means is that the laws was made stricter by Christ and not abolished as Christians have misconceived. **
Ibrahim says: this is only as long as he is present here, meaning he was the gate as well as the light of this world when he was sent to this planet, but the moment the Jews tried to kill him, he was removed and the prophesy is that another counselor will be sent to replace and take over his works and that my friend is the Prophet Muhammad. [pbuh]
Hot tip : John 9:5 ** As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.**
Ibrahim says: again this is Paul’s letters which is not a Gospel and Paul was teaching a new faith to the gentiles which was contrary to Christ teachings to the Jews.
Ibrahim says: what long post? Discussions have to be held with accuracy and clarity, if for any reason , you shorten your answers, that means ** you have failed to make clear your points.**
Regards
Ibrahim
Ibrahim says: I am talking about reading the Bible in church gatherings ( albeit parts at atime) . Do you want me quote some verses which are best not read in public?
BTW already informed you this…
Version : :- an account or description from a particular point of view esp. as contrasted with another account
Translations : - a rendering from one language into another; also : the product of such a rendering
Regards
Ibrahim
[quote]
Originally posted by Dil he Pakistani:
I just wonder does Ahmed Deedat still preach in SA these days?
[/quote]
Ibrahim says : No. He passed away ( may Allah (swt) shower his mercy and blessings on him) some time back.
Ibrahim, my friend
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
, please post the verses. Would be interesting to look at.
Ibrahim says : Greetings of peace to one and all
Dear Old man an entire book was written called the ** X-Rated Bible** by ( the irreverent survey of sex in the scriptures) by Ben Edward Akerley ISBN ISBN 9971-86-109-7 I have a copy myself. So I suggest you try the net for a copy or excerpts from it
Basically we can take this as “playboy stuff in ancient times” when they did not have the technology we have today.
This kind of sex details is more abundant in all ancient corrupted scriptures including the Vedas but NOT so in the INTACT revelation revealed by God.
The subject matter is with regards to
- Incest: implied, single, double and multiple
- Sexual pollution
- Homosexuality
- Rape: solo and group
- Adultery; attempted , real and forgiven
- Indecent exposure : Group sex and exhibitionism
- Nudity and striptease
- Prostitution and phallic worship and much more
of course the book itself takes it to the extreme , since it was authored by a ex-Christian turned atheist after being unable to handle these verses. .
But basically, it has to do with sexual matters which we may consider as phonographic today in public arenas.
Just to give a glimpse.
Let us read.
Ezekiel 23
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The ** word of the LORD** came to me:
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"Son of man, there were two women, daughters of the same mother.
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They became prostitutes in Egypt, engaging in prostitution from their youth. In that land ** their breasts were fondled and their virgin bosoms caressed. **
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The older was named Oholah, and her sister was Oholibah. They were mine and gave birth to sons and daughters. Oholah is Samaria, and Oholibah is Jerusalem.
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"Oholah engaged in prostitution ** while she was still mine;** and she ** lusted after her lovers,** the Assyrians–warriors
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clothed in blue, governors and commanders, all of them handsome young men, and mounted horsemen.
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She gave herself as a prostitute to all the elite of the Assyrians and defiled herself with all the idols of everyone she lusted after.
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She did not give up the prostitution she began in Egypt, when during her youth ** men slept with her, caressed her virgin bosom and poured out their lust upon her. **
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"Therefore I handed her over to her lovers, the Assyrians, for whom she lusted.
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** They stripped her naked, took away her sons and daughters and killed her with the sword.** She became a byword among women, and punishment was inflicted on her.
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"Her sister Oholibah saw this, yet in her lust and prostitution she was more depraved than her sister.
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She too lusted after the Assyrians–governors and commanders, warriors in full dress, mounted horsemen, all handsome young men.
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I saw that she too defiled herself; both of them went the same way.
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"But she carried her prostitution still further. She saw men portrayed on a wall, figures of Chaldeans portrayed in red,
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with belts around their waists and flowing turbans on their heads; all of them looked like Babylonian chariot officers, natives of Chaldea.
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** As soon as she saw them, she lusted after them and sent messengers to them** in Chaldea.
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Then the Babylonians came to her, to the bed of love, and in their lust they defiled her. After she had been defiled by them, she turned away from them in disgust.
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When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister.
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Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt.
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There** she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. **
Ibrahim says : Did you know South African ** censors board banned this extracts not knowing it was from the bible in 1985?**
Now I am sure you will agree these sort of verses ( just one quoted above) cannot be read in public when children may get excited by hearing them.
http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif
Regards
Ibrahim
Ibrahim: Would you be interested to get on TV like CNN or MSNBC and educate the public. I think I can get you on some show.
What do you say?