Vatican and catholic churches and what have they hidden

Society Religion & Philosophy
1

A good “friend” here on Gupshup wanted to discuss this issue but did not have enough courage/energy to start a new thread. Well here it is.

The Catholic Church and Vatican, it’s rulers, has been with us for some time. How open and transparent is this religious body/organization? In what ways did it change world history by manipulating politics or events? Do their rulers have a hidden agenda? Do they hide facts from the common people and it’s own religious constituency?

I do not wish to cause any Christian Catholic person here on Gupshup any discomfort and would appreciate it if the moderators will keep the discussion civilised and informative without becoming blasphemous to any of the members to this denomination of the Christian faith.

2

As a Catholic, Islam's basic tenets are a
discomfort and stand in contradiction to
Christianity. Their version of God's Word is
very different than what may be percieved.
They believe Allah came to Mohammed to set
the record straight. This is why they say
religion has been covered up, even before
the discovery and translation of the scrolls
from Qumran. There are warnings in Islam,
there are warnings in Chritianity regarding
other religions. These verses are significant
to both. They beg consideration. The cross-
fire of dialogue is not a discomfort, but a
welcome learning process, I would think. The
discussion should try to take into account
the sensativity of other faiths at all times.

3

Ibrahim says; Greetings of peace to one and all

In a nut shell, “Christians ( includes all denominations Vatican included) have been misleading their communities by revising, editing and omitting what has been revealed by God (bible)to them.”

** Thus the TRUTH has become the UNTRUTH and that is the “CORE” for their deception.**

For those who want to know the latest to this deception kindly visit http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A48340-2002Jan28.html published only yesterday, where they are rewriting and editing the Bible even further.

Even though they have been warned…

Revelation 22: 8. I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: ** If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. **

  1. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, ** God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book. **

Regards
Ibrahim

** The thing that impresses me most these days is how the devil has become the saint **

[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited January 28, 2002).]

4

TOMASSO:

As a Catholic, do you know of anything that the Vatican hid from the Catholic religious followers? Anything where they intentionally misinformed or misrepresented something?

5

Ibrahim:

I myself is very disturbed by so-called Christians who change the Bible as they see fit. I suppose one should expect this attitude/actions as the world become more and more unclean. Unfortunately Christians do not stand up and be counted.

In my own mother tongue, spoken by ± 8 million people, there exist five complete translations. The one reasonable accurate, one semi-paraphrase, one completely paraphrase, one done by a certain sect of Christianity where they changed large sections to accommodate their doctrine. The last one is so inaccurate it is horrible...

NOW, some people want to do a 6'th translation! All these translations for a very small group of people...

Knowing the head of the team that translated the New Testament for one of these translations, I can say that sometimes scholar's palms just itch to be able to change what is existing. Pity, as it's seldom for the good of it.

6

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:

[quote]
Ibrahim: Knowing the head of the team that translated the New Testament for one of these translations, I can say that sometimes scholar's palms just itch to be able to change what is existing. Pity, as it's seldom for the good of it.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says; Greetings of peace to one and all

Dear Old man , you seem to miss the point! And you are unable to differentiate between translations and versions

** Version :** :- an account or description from a particular point of view esp. as contrasted with another account

** Translations : -** a rendering from one language into another; also : the product of such a rendering

The Christian Bible we have today is based on versions and is not a translation (so to speak of), coming from ONE original revelation from God.

The so called original used by Christians itself is a VERSION, based on the Catholics (325 AD collections) , which was translated into ENGLISH AV ( authorized version) as another version by king James (in 1611 AD) to suit his desires and from it and through other later discoveries comes the other 101 versions in Christianity today.

In between 1611 till 2001 ( a mere 390 years) , the English bible had been edited, revised and corrected over and over again ** to remove 20,000 errors in 1841** and from than after only God knows how much more which has not stopped even now.

** In 1957, some Christians still believed there were 50, 000 errors in the Bible **

** But most of all as from the link I gave above the Bible is being shaped to please the masses even now, and that is deceit. The word of God cannot be adjusted, revised, or edited by man, the moment such things are done it is NO MORE THE WORD OF GOD! **

ALL OF THESE PROVES THAT THE BIBLE IS BASED ON ERRORS AND FALSEHOOD , ** as such the truth is hidden and concoctions of man is being pervaded as the Truth. That amounts to deceiving all those who have placed their faith in Christianity believing it is the sole truth and nothing but the truth from their Creator.**

Thus it should be obvious Christianity is a false faith invented by man to suit their purpose and it can proved by just trying to find out could there be a person called “jesus” living in the Israel at that time frame. And the answer is NO, simply because the letter “J” cannot be found in the Hebrew or Greek language.

So NO ONE with a name starting with the letter “J” could have lived in Israel at that time frame

** Thus the TRUTH is hidden in Christianity.** ( sorry to be blunt , but when we deal in sacred matters truth cannot be mixed with untruth just to please one and other)

** and those who cannot accept truth will be rejected by God in the hereafter. **

Best Regards
Ibrahim

** Common sense always speaks too late **

7

[This message has been edited by Ibrahim (edited January 30, 2002).]

8

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
simply because the letter “J” cannot be found in the Hebrew or Greek language.

Neither is it found in Latin!..BUT “I” is found in Latin and Greek, while Hebrew uses “Y”. The English version to the sound in the words using these letters is, funny enough, “J”.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Very good example is the word “Jerusalem”. Surely no-one wants to say that this city never existed as per the same argument about “Jesus” not existing because of no “J” found in the Hebrew language?!

In any other language where some different picture/letter/symbol denotes the sound/meaning in that particular language, neither “J”, “I”, or “Y” will be used.

Soo easy to explain…

[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited January 30, 2002).]

9

Not being anyone even close to being an authority on all Catholisism, there are no
known hidden things in scripture to me. The
things not in the open are peripheral. King
James did put the Bible in English for the
masses, at a time the Church sought to keep
it in Greek and Latin. This may have been an attempt to keep close to the original intent
of the verses until better understanding was
worked through. All the big three seem to
have gotten into error over the ages. I do
not suscribe to the idea that Judaism and
Christianity got it as wrong as Islam would
suggest. But, Islam does seem to serve a very
interesting role to both. I do value Ibrahim
as a commentator and scholar of more than
Islam, but do not accept all he puts forth.
Oh, there were some books omitted from the
original Bible, that pose a problem. These
were omitted by the Church very early on.

10

[quote]
Originally posted by The Old Man:

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

Old man, you understand the facts but yet want to mix truth with untruth. ** This my friend is forbidden in sacred matters and rejected by God.** Hence I am not saying Christ did not exist I am saying the guy Christians worship as “Jesus” is an invented being , since NO ONE has the authority to change another person’s name according to their whims and fancies. Especially someone appointed by God as sign for mankind.

This may be acceptable in the case of countries and cities where the population living in it decided to change its name but cannot be done for peoples names without their consent. When such things happens it amounts to slander and disrespect of that person.

Further names in ancient times had meanings , so when you say Jerusalem, the meaning will differ from yerusalam in the Hebrew language.

NOW since you understand the originals did not have the letter “j” the current Bible which has implanted this letter into it, is a false book in the sense that, that was not what can be considered the TRUTH but an invention that suits the masses.

** THUS. As per this thread, this is what the Christians are hiding from its own congregations and misleading them .**

Imagine a person calling upon a non existent name, who is he/she calling upon?

How can that person respond when such a name was invented by others?

The Creator did not have such a name and neither did he give such name to any of his Christs or Prophets or Messengers, so who are Christians calling to ?

** Thus what I am CLEARLY proving here is that the Vatican and all denominations of Christianity are spreading false teachings **

Ibrahim says : You must be kidding! Don’t tell me your name will be changed to Jold man or Bold man and Mold man in other languages.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

That is silly. Names will not differ in any language but different spellings can be used to get to the closest sound of the original

For instance I can spell Ibrahim as Ephrahim (even found written in the Bible as such) but NEVER Abraham as it commonly appears in the current bible, which is why the Bible is a VERSION and not the word for God as revealed to mankind.

Regards
Ibrahim

** the best vision is INSIGHT **

11

Ibrahim says: Greetings of Peace to one and all

My friend , the English Bible existed before the King James version, hit the block buster charts

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

It should be obvious why, since it was sanctioned by the king.

Ibrahim says: This is where you are mistaken, the Bible itself condemns the Jews and exposes them as an arrogant race and the Christians ended up as Christians because they were persecuted by the Jews.

Paul was a disciple of the priests that opposed Christ and when Christ was removed they saw a great opportunity to derail his teachings and destroy it from within.

This is the same case in Islam too, the Jew invented a religion called shi’ism and it now undermines Islam within.

So Islam is the correction of the earlier revelations as God had guaranteed that scripture can NEVER be corrupted by mankind. .

Ibrahim says: that is because what was revealed in the past was ISLAM and not what the Jews or Christians believed it to be.

Just find out how the Prophets and messengers worshipped God, so that you can be sure it was Islam and none other.

Ibrahim says: Do not take my words as a commentator or scholar unless it can be verified, if you cannot verify them, reject them BUT if you can verify them and you still persisted in not accepting them, by God, you have condemned yourself.

Ibrahim says: Not only are there omissions, but MISSING books and additions that were NEVER a part of God’s words to mankind at the time of its revelation.

Best regards
Ibrahim

** Wisdom we know is the knowledge of good and evil – not the strength to choose between the two **

12

Ibrahim;

Watch your words regarding shias and behave in a manner befitting a human being - even though it may be too much to ask of you.

You exhibit fitna any chance you get.

Don't preach to others when yr own beliefs are based on lies.

If you want to talk about shias, come talk to me. Stop hiding in Christian topics to do yr dirty work.

Now, go play with the kiddies.

13

Ibrahim ji: You have such vast knowledge. How should one address you: Allama or Maulana? I know I am stupid since I could not even decipher whether there was a coherent concept in what you have written.

14

a1shah,
it seems to me that it is you who needs to be reminded bout manners, you seem so emotional, keep emotions out and look at Ibrahim's arguments objectively, everything he says he backs up, about shias: I dont know what has been said by Ibrahim, I have heard that they love to curse the companions of Prophet (pbuh) and other crazy things too, dont get me wrong one of my close friend is a shia! But my advise to you is to keep a cool head and respond to Ibrahim's arguments in a cool manner.When ppl like you resort to insults it shows great weakness!

Ibrahim, whether they call you maulan or whatever one thing is SURE. Allah has granted you vast knowledge and I pray that he also grants you long life, and enable you to continue your good work. YOUre a star, do not let other people's weakness affect you. Allah knows best your intentions and your efforts will not go to waste.

15

I think all of you should take a good look at yourselves and what you've typed. Keeping in my mind while you review your words, what it was you truly intended.

Furthermore, just a note to some of you, if you cannot show respect for the beliefs and values of others, I strongly suggest you leave this forum.

This is a place where people come to learn and share, its a place for dialogue, not for maligning the beliefs of others.

16

[quote]
I think all of you should take a good look at yourselves and what you've typed. Keeping in my mind while you review your words, what it was you truly intended.
Furthermore, just a note to some of you, if you cannot show respect for the beliefs and values of others, I strongly suggest you leave this forum.
This is a place where people come to learn and share, its a place for dialogue, not for maligning the beliefs of others.
[/quote]

Ibrahim says: greetings of peace to one and all

Thank you Modamarator ! at the same time my apologize to anyone who may be offended by my wordings IF ANY, on this or any other thread. ** I have a habit of being FRANK and will not hesitate to say what I can prove as being true.**

I deal this way with all people be he a Muslim or Non Muslim ( even in public where people know me personally)

** My motto is

Be Blunt without being rude

Be Brief and clear without being superficial.

Be Daring without being reckless. **

If anyone cannot handle ** “TRUTH” as is ** and can only work on it ** with sugar coating**, or If any of this is not to anyone’s liking please feel free to advise me .

Regards
Ibrahim

** The most scientific of man plunges beneath the material surface of things and finds the spiritual cause **

17

[quote]
Originally posted by Ibrahim:
**
Ibrahim says: greetings of peace to one and all

Thank you Modamarator ! at the same time my apologize to anyone who may be offended by my wordings IF ANY, on this or any other thread. ** I have a habit of being FRANK and will not hesitate to say what I can prove as being true.**

I deal this way with all people be he a Muslim or Non Muslim ( even in public where people know me personally)

** My motto is

Be Blunt without being rude

Be Brief and clear without being superficial.

Be Daring without being reckless. **

If anyone cannot handle ** “TRUTH” as is ** and can only work on it ** with sugar coating**, or If any of this is not to anyone’s liking please feel free to advise me .

Regards
Ibrahim

** The most scientific of man plunges beneath the material surface of things and finds the spiritual cause ** **
[/quote]

Only the truly ignorant think that they themselves possess the absolute truth.

You are a prime example of this.

But except for a few poor souls here, most are well aware of your so-called "level of knowledge".

You are a joke.

18

I consider myself among the all and wish to ask for forgiveness if I did transgress.

I actually agree with Ibrahim in that one needs to be frank and open as to your beliefs and ideas. I though do not believe that playing the man (posting personnal insults or belitteling another) help in debates. It actually indicates someone that is not able to handle the debate and it is unneccesary.

Thus far I have enjoyed Ibrahims inputs and the disagreeing discussions with him. Hope we will be allowed to continue in the same frame?! If not, just say so and I will try and be more careful what topic I do start.

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

19

I want to hear more about the missing Qumran scrolls, the early Christian Church (which I believe to be the closest to the true message of Hazrat Esa (Jesus)).

Also more on Saul/Paul's version of Christianity propagated throughout the western world via the Roman Empire. He never met Jesus, yet initially proclaimed him to be the son of God...an accepted version of Christianity today.

More about, the Roman religion's own input into Christianity i.e. Sunday being a holy day for them venerating the sun God etc.

I presume the Vatican has the answer to these queries and many more. I read into this quite a bit years ago, but got frustrated with the what if's....a lot of speculation and no durable evidence.

20

The Vatican is not the only source!

Ask and get answers - either Ibrahim’s views

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

, or views from the Christians posting here. I normally try not to slate a doctrine/faith but will say what I believe is correct (complete with logic reasons/proofs), as well as stating some views different from my own.

The only problem is that it seem the Moderators does not like this probing questioning. Could be because some people can only flame, blaspheme, and slander.

I myself believe that a proper discussion can be done.

For a little more info on the Dead Sea Scrolls, here is a link to an exibition done in the USA:
http://www.ibiblio.org/expo/deadsea.scrolls.exhibit/intro.html

Also look at the following:
http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html http://www.jcrelations.net/articl1/schiffman.htm

There are a lot more available (as well as the full translations of all done to date), but I’m sure above will help you. If you do need more info, can link some more.

[This message has been edited by The Old Man (edited February 01, 2002).]