I personally disagree with the Deobandi position that it is right to consider Abdul Wahab Al-Najdi worthy of praise and I also think it is wrong for them to think of the position of Ahmad Raza Khan (RA) erroneous. When I said I still follow Deoband - I mean it in terms of their practices in the Hanafi madhab and not in their political positions regarding others. There are certain things I dislike about from the Barelvi school and do not find them in the core Islamic values of Sunnis from other countries … Ikhlaq is the quickest and highest sign of true guidance as well as adherence to Shar’iah.
In this sense I do not identify with either group nor differ from either completely … Note how I say things as “I view them, or believe this about them, etc …” rather than saying “They are this or that, or such and such IS the truth”
@vroom i do not know what bias you have with deoband school of thought. Every thing you have said is refuted and is either based on wrong claims or misinterpreted misquotes. Any way i think your posts will be having a positive impact for deobandis as this will make people read and any one who reads with open mind will know the HAQ inshallah.
i prefer not to take part in these discussions , as these are useless and waste of time. but that does not mean that what ever this guy writes is true. I urge reader to search for the sources(not quotations) to verify these claims.
Most of what I said is true! So what is not true according to you, or generally what i have said is true?
Also you disagree with deobandi position, so do you agree with Imam Abideen that Ibn Abdul wahab and his group is khawarij. This by extension has implications for deoband, in that they too are part of the khawarij spectrum, are bootlickers or opportunists.
Ihklaq can mean different things to different people. When i see Sunnis [Barelvis] i see them as having good manners. I suppose if you are from the opposition or consider yourself one, then there is cause for concern in you that you will not be given good treatment. and there is nothing wrong with this at least from the sunni barelvi side. and if you have missed the bad manners of deobandism then you are deaf, dumb and blind, truely and utterly
And for a deobandi to talk about Ihklaq after what you guys have built your empire on. That’s hypocritical [Nifaaq/Munafiq]
and there is a contradiction between your last statement and your first. I will not be adopting your approach. Sure its academically fashionable but I’d rather carry my beliefs with me
One of you is saying most things i have said is true meaning truth, and you are saying everything i have said has been refuted. refuted as being true? refuted with faslehood? what kind of refuted and what issues are you talking about? I have mentioned a few issues including the fact that Mufti Hanif Qureshi brought the head of a batil group home with a admittance that your imam and their [salafi] imam was upon kufr. its lol enough to have same imam
In one sentence you are insinuating haq is deobandi and i am wrong, and the next you are agreeing with a statement which is does not even claim to know truth. So its either Haq or you are not sure
Although really it may just be a sign of support, even though your beliefs are different. So a conspiracy towards a common goal
I wish to avoid fanaticism … brother vroom … I follow Deobandi/Nadwi school in matters of fiqh and I follow my Shadhili/Sufi teachers for matters of ihsan, not the Deobandis - I see what the Barelvis say is correct in matters that pertain to the adab and maqam of RasoolAllah (SAW) but I can’t see that is has benefited most of them in matters of ihsan, except when they specifically resort to a tariqah … So just as my tariqah has allowed me to rise above the problems in Deobandism, my fellow mureeds who are from Barelvi backgrounds are elevated above the problems from Barelvism and hence I get along just fine with my brothers in tariqah regardless of what fiqh background they are from …
It is a 5 hours video and wholesale distribution of kafir fatwas during this whole munazra is scary!!!
I don’t know who brought whose head home, but lots of dead people were labelled Karif, significance of which eludes me. They were more interested in bringing down each others’ elders than debating specific issues.
Where-ever we have touched upon matters of fiqh, i recall you do not agree with deobandi/nadwi [for example Imam Abideen wahabi khawarij, Qasr Salah, beliefs] but anyway this is not important to me, something for you to think about.
And you have ditched them [deobandis] on beliefs too
So I have nothing to say about these frivolous [non] points, I will say there is Markers that define us and our religion. I know some of these markers.
if avoiding fanaticism means you are neutral then neutralism on those points is what you are upon. It may be that i take an opinion on neutralism
Thank you, it can be said talib ur rehman has benefited more from us then you
they actually have different ways in their outlook on Islam which is why the distribution of kafir fatwas was important. The elders [imams] is what they were due to talk on. Its not for the faint hearted, and 5 hours is not enough to understand what is happening. More like 5 years
and the heads of two batil groups were brought home by Moulana Hanif Qureshi
I suppose God would already have decided if they are kafir or not. Don’t you think calling someone Kafir because they have a different outlook on religion is a bit extreme?
No, not if you are committed to your beliefs. For the moderate person it is a farce and i understand your pov.
What has happened in last 100/50/30 years is that various forms of wahabism have popped up and grown in size. At the heart of these movements is a motivation to lead the ummah and a deviance in their beliefs. Part of this deviance is the belief that what we know as traditional islam is disbelieving and mushrikeen. This is part of their reason for existence, so takfir is at the heart of our differences
So the fact that different groups exist and we all have specific beliefs this kinda assures us takfir will exist
Also they currently rule the ummah as well with financial clout! So all the wahabi groups have had support to grow. So no let up in sight just yet, just a bloodbath re isis taliban lej
Yes again some of these are the case … I also agree that Barelvis are orthodox, but I also state that they specifically gathered momentum as a reactionary group to Deobandis and that is why Sh Ahmad Raza Khan (RA) is credited for being the founder … Just see the mark in historical timeline to get my point.
I am not neutral in view … The accusation that Deobandis are Wahabis needs to be cleared. There is no connection the sets of scholars are very different … Only certain concepts are shared by accident between them … Historically they started in a similar time quite independently from one another in different locations.
I would like the Deobandi ulema to remove some of the concepts they have in their books … For example … The suggestion that Allah (SWT) can lie … This idea is not from the Salaf.
In terms of what I understand about avoiding fanaticism … It is my belief to be a certain way … However not to hold others in contempt for not being that way as they might have their reasons for their beliefs … And they may be in a transition to guidance and my judgementalism may be the cause of sending them away from my position. So I would sooner say something is erroneous than call someone a kafir or outside of Ahl-us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa’.
By the way I believe Sh. Asrar Rashid is friends with Sh. Yaseen … Who is a senior mureed of my Shaykh, I believe I have met Sh. Rashid in person a few times.
Actually no. The term barelvi is not even accepted for this point. It has mainly been used by opponents to single out Imam Ahmad Raza Khan as being founder but like everything else our history is older. Not all of Imam Raza Khan’s positions are taken by those termed as Barelvi. The sufis still dance, the chistis still use music, women still visit Mazaars. So Imam Raza Khan is just a scholar within a long line of people considered as Mujadid. And it this point Imam Raza Khan was the or has become the standard bearer for the fatwa of kufr on deobandi akabir.
The fatwa of kufr on deobandi elders is not a start point for us. It is an incident
We have benefited from Imam Raza Khans other works more then this for example His salat o salam after Jumaah. Something which we regard in the same category as Qasida Burdah
With regards to deobandi elders he said what others did, but was more comprehensive and this is the reason His name stands out, because He is taken as important. We produced someone we can call Mujadid. SubhanAllah
He took on batil, and this is a hallmark of Mujadid according to Moulana Asrar Rashid
So you call one set wahabis and not the deobandis as wahabis. The deobandi accepted the wahabi label for themselves. and where their concepts meet thats what we call wahabis.
And you say these ahul bidah share some concepts and started at a similar time, ok I’ll accept that and call both of them as wahabis. By the way its not so important for me to call deobandis as wahabis. They have alot of similarity.
you are a star!
Yes they need to remove these concepts and these concepts were why they changed in the first place. Need to get rid of deviance like this
An admission to Ahlus Sunnah [barelvi] would be nice too.
The truth is you do not represent deobandis, and they would not like you commenting against their aqaid and elders like this
Good for you
If you are trying to say i should do the same, erm no thank you. I have my reasons. Some concepts land a person clearly outside of Islam and some positions are not from the Ahlus Sunnah. Where there is benefit i will mention these according to my ability and at my own risk.
What an Honor. May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala protect him
actually u may be right about [perceived] orthodox in Pakistan. majority? yes absolutely. but things i see in my barelvi friends and family, nothing much orthodox really. all sorts of mix and match. doesn’t mean other sects dont have it, but barelvies have more of it.
rest i will not poke my nose further when knowledgeable people like psyah and bao bihari are here.
Incidentally my position comes from Shaykh Hamza Yusuf and Shaykh Abdal Hakim Murad and my own Shaykh regarding laypersons not demonising others and not getting in to debates … and I believe they are more qualified than me and many others as well.
Your last line …
Ameen … And May Allah (SWT) grant us all success in this life and the Hereafter.
You are probably someone who has debated a lot, but what i have noticed is that I am the one to object to non sunni concepts passed off as sunni on here. This is not good for you according to my understanding. And i take it this silence has been happening throughout the internet era. and there is an agreement between deobandis and salafis that you act together to give the impression that certain concepts are mushrikeen, and bidat, and such and such insolence is sunni. Or that you do not debate between those who follow the sunnah in some capacity, but you debate others
This is all hypocrisy according to me.
So in this regard I feel like I am doing good in opposing others who say they are merely talking. they are not merely talking!
My teachers have taught me that Islam is vast and people are of different types and many differences are not that important to worry about … In this regard I am happy with people … Hopefully my kindness to others will earn me kindness in the Hereafter. I actually argue against the Salafis trying to explain how the Sufi position is right and vice versa if anyone comes to attack Salafis I try to defend them also … We need to be nicer to each other … I get a horrible feeling in my heart when people debate and level serious accusations to other … I don’t think that is Islam it is not from the Sunnah.
it simply mean that being affiliate with deobandis school of thought does not mean that we will accept whatever comes from them rather if i believe haq is on other side in a given matter i will support the other side.
You may carry on with your baseless accusations without any proof, if you are genuine in asking questions just ask them with references(deobandi references-i have given a link of online books) then lets see if they are not already being refuted or how weight these points have.
