What do you think if you were indian muslim trapped in hostile anti muslim VHP,RSS,Shiv Sena Bajrang Dal,Bjp Hindu Mahasabha,etc.etc.
Can a NGO non governm,ent organization over ride the laws & constitutions of the country ? obviously not is ythe simple answer but yet what happened in Gujrat was also considered IMPOSSIBLE by some .
Anywayze non politically speaking can Islam be modified by darul Harab ?
Sparking off yet another controversy, the VHP on Monday asked Muslims to join hands to remove from the religious texts of both communities “portions which preach hatred against one another”.
“There can be permanent peace between Hindus and Muslims only if the religious texts are put together and portions which preach hatred are removed,” VHP senior vice-president Acharya Giriraj Kishore told reporters here.
Kishore said he had made the suggestion during the recent meeting between the two communities held here under the aegis of the National Commission for Minorities.
The VHP leader said no amount of Sadbhavana Yatras or Sadbhavana Ke Sipahi (the Congress party’s soldiers of goodwill) or inter-faith meetings can bring about any change in Hindu-Muslim ties till “the root cause (religious texts) is taken care of”.
RSS chief K S Sudarshan had earlier sparked off a controversy asking Muslims to reinterpret their religious texts and win the confidence of the majority community to ensure their safety.
The VHP had earlier demanded that Muslims re-interpret terms such as jihad (holy war), kafir (infidels) and Kufr (the philosophy behind the term Kafir).
The Sangh Parivar had also asked both Muslims and Christians to “Indianise” their faith.
Kishore wondered why the Muslims were particular about observing Shariat in civil matters and not in criminal law.
“They should decide whether they want to follow the Shariat or the law of the land,” he said.
Q…Is Muslim book equivalent to any hindu book ?Geeta Vedas,or Upanishaad,orRamayan ,Mahabharat .
q…trying to treat equally literally two religions book equally is fallaceous?
Q Isnt problem of WRONG interpretation rather than content being wrong???
You should note that BJP a political elected party but VHP RSS are only NGO with sympathiser or endorsers in the BJP
While it may be creative set up of dummy corporations but legally bjp can profess secularism while VHP RSS can keep pushing you bullying you & killing you !!!
Wohi Hota Hai Jo Munzoore Khuda Hota Hai …:nahnah:
Problem is they are NGO & can say yes & No at the same time .India is 85 % hindu almost like Pakisdtan except in Pakistan the overwhelming is Muslim.
I know there no such hostility or progrom in Pakistan b/c India has far greater no.of muslims than Pakistan has Hindus.
Unfortunately even those hindus who vote for secularism b/c its the constitution DONT BELIEVE IN IT neuither does thses VHP RSS SHIV SENA BAJRANG DAL etc. etc.
The bible speakes of animalistic worshipping of snales fiore wind & water as PAGANS …YET THESE OPERTUNISTIC HINDUS WONT SAY THAT OF THE CHRISTIANS B/C no matter what tyhe west is basically CHRITIANS which India sucks onby its herds of Code Colies devouring available visa & work permits not to speake of $$ market that poor & pathetic indian economy badly begs for .
Wohi Hota Hai Jo Munzoore Khuda Hota Hai …:nahnah:
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Originally posted by kabir: this is just a start if they have another term in delhi they will start forcing muslims to keep hindu names
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2/ I can upfront tell you you r not a muslim by education. I cant take away from you your muslim nick but only educated MUSLIMS can explain why there is NO SUCH THING IN KORAN
If it were there then 1500 yrs Islam & Koran appealed to all sorts of people to almost all ethnic gropups of the world.
Do you think if koran talked badly about HINDUS any hindu would have CONVERTED/EMBRACED???I personally known many NOVICE muslims who were Hindu by birth christians ,jews,hispanics,you name it .So even though all the world will not become muslim in my life time but its not that any ethnic group is alienated in KORAN
IF 1500 yrs with 10 times more powerful world empires of byzantine & ottoman & moghul & Chengez Khan ,never dared to change Koran ..many VHP will come & go before that will happen.Im sure 140 millin will give there life instead so that muslims outside india can be as muslim as they want to be .
Next time Hafeez try to learn meanings of your Hifz
Wohi Hota Hai Jo Munzoore Khuda Hota Hai …:nahnah:
Who is asking for handouts.Those that pray to allah are just as good as those aethist or not
Do you think muslims are not Ph.D. in Physics .Do you think muslims contribution to all sciences & not only physics is any less or that of Hindu more ?If you believe so its your missinformation & not muslims fault
Going by the nincompoos VHP Bajrang dal & RSS if thats what hindu is all about very soon india will be in the bottom pits!!!
riginally posted by kabir:
this is just a start if they have another term in delhi they will start forcing muslims to keep hindu names
may be you should check some indonesian names
THE NOMENCLATURE IS THE MOST SUPERFICIAL PART OF YOUR I>.D. for e.g. your friend above calls himself Hafeez 123 that doesnt make him neither hafiz nor a muslim just by that !!!
I dont know why indian fight tooth & nail like Kashmir on issues which are not even an issue for muslim.It is just that indian evolution of history was such that it was different from Indonesia .On the contrary if we asked Indonesian why there names do not reflect muslim names BUT WE ARE NOT SUCH FOOLISH AS JAN SANGH HINDU MAHASABHA WHOSE STUPID BALRAJ MADHOK RAISED THIS ISSUE REPEATEDLY .
WHY ISNT EMPIRE STATE BUILDING NAMED AM<ERICAS TOWER …???B/c it isnt
Wohi Hota Hai Jo Munzoore Khuda Hota Hai …:nahnah:
Why hasn;t the US wrned muslims to Americanize their beliefs?
Despite being the world biggest secular democracy, India still fails to impress.
By saying Indian Muslims should "Indianize," their faith, implies that Muslims are foreigners that need to adapt to an more "Indian" culture.. What then is Indian culture? Why its Hinduism ofcourse!!! Hindus basically dictate everything in India, if your not Hindu, your not really Indian. Your a just a guest.
[quote]
Originally posted by Adnan Ahmed: Why hasn;t the US wrned muslims to Americanize their beliefs?
Despite being the world biggest secular democracy, India still fails to impress.
By saying Indian Muslims should "Indianize," their faith, implies that Muslims are foreigners that need to adapt to an more "Indian" culture.. What then is Indian culture? Why its Hinduism ofcourse!!! Hindus basically dictate everything in India, if your not Hindu, your not really Indian. Your a just a guest.
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why you call indian muslims mojahirs in pakistan? if you cant tell apart you wont call them mujahirs.
may be hindus means geographical term mixed with religen race languuage culture and nationalism.it is hard to separate these things .
indian/pakstani muslims may be better integrated in west than arab counries.
muslims are not monolithic as you portray.
[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited July 24, 2002).]
[quote]
Originally posted by rvikz:
** why you call indian muslims mojahirs in pakistan? if you cant tell apart you wont call them mujahirs.
may be hindus means geographical term mixed with religen race languuage culture and nationalism.it is hard to separate these things .
indian/pakstani muslims may be better integrated in west than arab counries.
muslims are not monolithic as you portray.
[This message has been edited by rvikz (edited July 24, 2002).]**
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We dont call them Mohajirs, they choose to call themselves Mohjirs.. The MQM, was name adopted by people who consider themselves Mohajirs.. Also, the Mohajirs are distict from the local ethnic groups that make up modern Pakistan,they are not Sindhi, Baloch, Punjabi, Kashmiri or Pathan.. They identify themselves as those who migrated from India, thus they identify themselves as Mohajirs.. Nothing wrong with that, we welcome their uniquenes.. In fact, they are the real Pakistanis, since they gave up the most.. In India, the Muslims that stayed behind are still considered foreigners, despite the fact that they have been in India as far back as anyone can remember.
And im not talking about Muslims in the west.. In the west, these people actually are foreigners.. In America, we choose to adapt because this is our adopted home. Im talking about Indian Muslims. In India, the muslims are not foreigners, India is much Muslim as it is Hindu...So WHY, should they have to adapt to living in their own homeland?????? The reason is because the majority Hindus identify India as being Hindu (ethnic and relgious, whatever...), therefore, anyone who is not Hindu is foreign and needs to "adapt."
[This message has been edited by Adnan Ahmed (edited July 24, 2002).]
You r comparing an Asian underdeveloped country like India with America ???I think even Hindu state Nepal is better in Policy than humongous haegemenous like an ugly Buffaloe sitting idle ,India
Read the latest Christian Science Monitor about ADVANI & his hindutva …if progress meant globaslizatiobn Pluralism & tolerance ..INDIA IS SETTING ITS OWN TRAIL god knows where it leads
THERE IS A LESSON IN INDIANS AUDACITY OF EXTREMISM IN THE MIDST OF EMBRACING SCIENCE TECHNOLOGY & AMERICAN ISM FOR ECONOMIC REASON.THOSE THAT DERIDE THE JAMAATE ,MAUDOODI ,& ISLAMISTS ARE THEMSELVES ENCOURAGING UNILATERAL RADICALIZATION OF OUR NEIGBOUR.IF MURLI WANTS TO TEACH ASTROLOGY WITH MODIS NEWTON THEORY OF ACTION & REACTION BEING ALWAYS EQUAL & OPPOSITE WHY ISLAMIST CANT STRESS THE VALUE OF ALCOHOL PROHIBITION,CIRCUMSCISION,ABULATION ,PANJ NAMAZ,AND ITS POSITIVE EFFECT ON HEALTH ,PREVENTIVE MEDICINE,PUNCTULAITY ,DISCIPLINE ,HYGIENE ETC ALL CAN MUCH BETTER THAN DHOTI & TIKKA ,…WITH MODERN SCIENCE & EVOLVED IDEAS.
India’s leader-in-waiting fans Hindu nationalism
Colin Powell begins his tour of Asia this weekend with a stop in India and Pakistan.
By Robert Marquand | Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor
NEW DELHI ? To devotees, he is the savior of Hindu India: “as pure as the Gangotri, and as broad as the Ganges,” as one put it. To critics he is destroying the dreams and ideals of Mohandas Gandhi ? a dangerous fascist willing to risk riots and flames to hold power.
Either way, L.K. Advani, India’s new deputy prime minister ? and heir apparent to Prime Minister Vajpayee ? is clearly emerging as the Indian most responsible for the rise of nationalism here and for posing India as a force to be reckoned with.
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This weekend, US Secretary of State Colin Powell is set to visit India and Pakistan in a bid to reduce tensions between the two nuclear states, and discuss Kashmir. Mr. Advani has taken the lead for India with the US, voicing India’s frustration over cross-border violence. An urbane Brahmin born in Pakistan, a brilliant tactician, and leader of a quasi-secret elite Hindu order, Advani is the kind of leader the Bronx-born Mr. Powell has probably rarely met during his military career.
Advani became deputy prime minister in a recent cabinet reshuffle, a move that was rumored for months. During two intense border standoffs with Pakistan, talk in Delhi was that Advani ? who reportedly favored military action against Pakistan ? was gaining a foothold at the top. After a January trip to Washington to make India’s case, arguing an equivalence between Sept. 11 and cross-border terrorism with Pakistan, Advani’s status skyrocketed.
“We felt it was Advani who most stood up for India with the Americans,” said one official. “The Americans listened to him.”
Advani’s promotion early this month from home minister to the apex of power carries its own message: Analysts say it signals the ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) is again pumping up a radical Hindu nationalist program called “Hindutva.” The move could further polarize multicultural India along religious and ethnic lines.
In the 1990s, BJP-led Hindutva excited voters with a message of martial vigor, a media campaign that featured Hindu gods, and an anti-Islamic slant that angered the 14 percent Muslim population.
Mainly due to a Hindu revival that Advani has devoted his life to, the character of India has changed in recent years. Since 1980, on a Hindutva platform, the BJP rose from a paltry four seats in parliament to ruling India. Only weeks after the BJP came to power in 1998, India tested a nuclear device, changing the geopolitics of South Asia.
Among the Indian middle class, the byproduct of Hindutva was a new discourse of muscular nationalism. In private schools, conferences, history books, clubs, camps, rallies, and popular TV series, a mix of Hindutva ideas and pro-India bravado altered the dialogue here.
Ultimately, Hindutva represented a powerful new elixir in a country whose corrupt Congress Party was seen as ineptly mouthing the words of Gandhi’s nonviolent independence revolution.
Yet today, BJP is flagging in the polls. Insiders feel the party is hamstrung by its moderate coalition partners. Hardliners want the BJP to break free from the ruling coalition and capture office on an uncompromising and sharper pro-Hindu agenda. From Advani, they want someone who will take charge, speak for their interests, and train a set of more devout Hindu cadres.
“With Advani at the top, the signal is that BJP will use the Hindu card for its political furtherance,” says an observer with close ties to the ruling party. “The feeling is that in coming months, it is now or never.”
Radical ethnic views?
Advani first cut loose with a full-scale Hindutva agenda in 1992. His attention-getting theatrics included dressing up as a Hindu saint and touring India, posing with a drawn bow and arrow. Prior to that, he was India’s minister for broadcasting in the short-lived Janata Party in the late 1970s.
Advani was arrested in 1992 after a months-long pro-Hindu campaign that led to the destruction of a mosque in Ayodyha, sparking bloody riots across India. The event has been a controversial epicenter of Indian politics since.
But Advani has always turned setbacks into gains. By 1998, he became the powerful home minister in charge of security. Now, he is a half-step closer to the throne.
“Advani is the man of the hour, and he is the man of the future,” says Dewedi Vireshawer, Delhi spokesman for the VHP, a right-wing Hindu group. “He is the man who took the BJP into the hearts of the Indian people. He is the next natural choice for us.”
However, such feelings are not echoed by those who feel the logic of a Hindu revival will lead the country toward ethnic strife.
“Advani can voice your bias and prejudices in a way that makes you feel justified about hating,” says a liberal Hindu executive at a multinational firm in Delhi. “Frankly, I fear the man. I fear he will easily mesmerize the middle class and the urban voters in order to hold power.”
Advani, in a Monitor interview earlier this year, denies that he backs radical behavior, saying that India’s real problem is Pakistani-instigated terror. “As one sworn to uphold the Indian constitution … I feel a secular approach is the only right way to conduct politics in India. But it doesn’t serve my adversaries to highlight that. It serves them to say if I came to power, we would have a Hindutva state.”
Critics counter that Advani uses the language of modern secular politics with elites and foreigners, while saving his Hindutva message for the home crowd. Look what Advani does, not what he says, they argue.
Early this month, they point out, Advani was to travel to Gujarat, scene of bloody Hindu-Muslim clashes this spring, to speak at rally of Hindu radicals. Only a condemnation by India’s National Human Rights Commissioner, Verma, caused Advani to cancel his trip.
That Hindu forces are stoking the fires is seen in the appointment of one Vinay Katiyar to head the BJP in the crowded “cow-belt” state of Uttar Pradesh. Mr. Katiyar, a hand-picked protégé of Advani, has led a radical Bajrang Dal Hindu youth army, a group that has attacked Muslims and Christians. He is now member of parliament from Ayodhya, and is fighting to put a Hindu temple over the destroyed mosque.
Hindu groups have long backed Advani as prime minister. But the BJP’s coalition partners chafe at the idea of a hardliner at the helm. They prefer the more genial temperament of Mr. Vajpayee. Yet by accepting a deputy prime minister slot, Advani has dared the coalition to break up the government over what amounts to only a half-step closer to the top job.
A major sign of Advani’s clout is the ongoing rise of the most powerful of Hindu groups, the Rashtriya Swayamsewak Sangh, or RSS. The RSS, made up mainly of Brahmin-caste members, operates as a ruling elite in a broad network or “family” of Hindu groups, known as the Sangh Parivar.
The RSS is a “metapolitical” organization, say its backers. Those who study it point to its roots in turn-of-the-century Aryan fascism. The BJP has been described by RSS leaders as a “front” for their agenda.
In the RSS view, the beloved motherland of India ? messy, chaotic, and blessed with an astute population that leads the world in software writing but is seemingly cursed with an inability to organize well ? needs the kind of systematic discipline their organization alone can provide. Only with a strong Hindu hand can India emerge as the leader of nations that RSS members feel it should be. The RSS would free India from a mentality of subversion and impotence they say was imposed by Muslim invaders, and then British colonialists.
In RSS camps, youngsters are drilled in physical exercise. But according to D.R. Goyal, a former RSS member, this is "much more than a physical routine… It is a psychological drill leading to total surrender of the individual personality to what the RSS establishment [calls] ‘the ideal.’ "
At ease with the old and young
On June 20, 1942, a 14-year-old Advani attended an RSS lecture in Karachi that changed his life. The subject: Hindutva.
Within a year, young Advani would meet M.S. Golwalker, arch-guru of the RSS. Mr. Golwalker’s photo now hangs in all RSS schools, and his writings on the superiority of Hindu culture, and the need to remove from India the influence of non-Hindus, Muslims, and Christians included, lie at the core of RSS belief.
Ten years before meeting Advani, Golwalker had written: “This great Hindu Race professes its illustrious Hindu Religion, the only religion in the world worthy of being so denominated … Guided by this religion … the Race evolved a culture which despite the degenerating contact with the debased ‘civilizations’ of the Mussalmans and the Europeans… is still the noblest in the world.” (Golwalker’s books, including the RSS bible, “Bunch of Thoughts,” are on sale at BJP headquarters in Delhi.)
Advani at first flirted with an engineering career. But after RSS Officers Training Camp in Indore and then Ahmedabad, he committed himself to the cause. By 1947, the year India was partitioned, Advani was chief of the Karachi RSS intellectual cell; 10 days before the epic and bloody partition of India, Advani became the RSS head in Karachi. On that day, coincidentally enough, Golwalker met him on a tour of what would soon become Pakistan.
Advani is regarded as someone unusually attuned to RSS rhythms. Supporters point out he works 15- to 16-hour days; journalists marvel that he can stand for hours on end giving speeches and talks, holding meetings, and never seeming to tire.
“Advani is the incarnation of RSS ideology,” argues Christophe Jaffrelot, author of the comprehensive study, “The Hindu Nationalist Movement in India.” He sits as easily with bearded other-worldly Hindu sadus or “saints,” as with groomed executives of India’s high-tech corporations. He can talk the language of fundamentalism with the old guard, but is contemporary with India’s sophisticated young.
In his spare but imposingly spacious Delhi office, Advani is relaxed and wears his power lightly. He smiles, cracks jokes, and says he wants to watch the movie “Pearl Harbor,” but hasn’t had time for a film since “Titanic.”
He stays away from the religious vernacular. But he states, "People fear that if I come to power I will annex Pakistan. Now Pakistan and India are two sovereign countries. But I do concede that a day may come, and a day will come, when both countries and their leaders and people will realize that partition did not help either of them, and perhaps a confederation of the two countries will be in the best interest. I look forward to that day.
“There was a time when the two Germanys could not think of living together.”
Wohi Hota Hai Jo Munzoore Khuda Hota Hai …:nahnah:
Some typical suggestions by the kafireen to the muslims living in India. This reminds me of an incident in the past when Qadaffi the mad dog of Libya wanted to remove the word Qul from Surah Ikhlas, the Ulema told him that this would invalidate the Quran and render it the equivalent of the bible and torah, books of Allah polluted by human beings. The same offer is being presented to the muslims of India, who have a choice continue to view themselves as Indian muslims and compromise their deen and eventually join the ranks of the disbelievers because surely that is where you end up when you compromise islam or muslims living in India who adhere to the Quran and Sunnah regardless of the consequences and work with a sincere muslim group to re-establish the Khilafah in the muslim lands, whilst preparing the muslims and non-muslims in India to become part of the Khilafah.
Besides telling Muslims to do this & do that …Does the ruling Sanghi Parivar know that the responsibility of Govt.is more than just ORDERING but WELFARE SAFETY SECURITY HEALTH EDUCATION ,JOBS ,WATER,FOOD,CLOTHING
What about changing your mind & NIOT think of such userless ideas as how to harrass minority burn churches & fight wars unnecessarily
[quote]
Originally posted by Gymnasophyst:
The VHP had earlier demanded that Muslims re-interpret terms such as jihad (holy war), kafir (infidels) and Kufr (the philosophy behind the term Kafir).
The Sangh Parivar had also asked both Muslims and Christians to "Indianise" their faith.
[/quote]
If groups see hatred and violence where there isn't any, and ask people to change their religion on basis of their paranoia, then peace can never be achieved.
