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*Originally posted by Arvind: *Why did canadian muslim council who is promoting sharia in Ontario for non-criminal disputes between consenting muslims, why are they not asking to use sharia for criminal disputes also?
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Errrr.... Is it because Canada is not a Muslim nation and as a result they don't have any significant powers to change the national constituions?
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*Originally posted by MiniMe: * Now the sultan can use the Qaziz to quell the opposition, but aren’t modern secular leaders do that as well, using their enforcement agencies to shut the opposition, we never cry that the whole system is wrong. Yes there are people who misuse the law, and yes we had muslims who misused islamic court system to there benefit as well, that doesn’t make the law wrong. The sultans were the reasons that an alien system was imposed on muslims, and its saddening that Musims have forgotten all this in just merely 80 years.
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A good valid point.
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*Originally posted by MiniMe: * The modern secular system had done great disservice to the Islamic way of living.
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Strongly agree.
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*Originally posted by MiniMe: *And Mawlana Arvind, pleaseeeee, read Interpretation. Shria is was not developed in a vacuum.
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True, Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings be upon him) lived 23 years to perfect the Law.
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*Originally posted by Arvind: *
Minime,
Here is what your illustriuos leader Musharraf thinks of sharia:
February 11, 2004
Pakistan's Musharraf wants debate on Islamic laws
Here is the difficulty: Musharraf wants to examine Sharia law, particularly laws regarding rape (which I discuss at length in Islam Unveiled) in the light of "chivalry," but for millions of Muslims in Pakistan and elsewhere, it is the law of Allah. It is not to be judged or revised -- an idea that bodes ill for non-Muslims and women in Sharia societies. From Reuters, with thanks to Nicolei:
Traditional Islamic laws that require multiple witnesses to prove a rape case or permit the stoning of adulterers must be put up for debate, Pakistan's President Pervez Musharraf said on Tuesday.
Addressing a summit of first ladies of 17 Asian countries, Musharraf said he was aware the "Hudood Ordinances" introduced during the Islamic dictatorship of the late General Zia-ul-Haq in 1979 were a "very touchy and thorny issue".
"But there is no doubt in my mind that it should be open to any debate," he said. "Why should we shy away from even discussing it?"
Appealing to Pakistani men to be "chivalrous", he added: "We must discuss it."
Powerful Islamic groups have vowed to resist attempts to change the laws opposed by secular political parties and civil rights and women's groups, who say rape and other violent crimes against women have soared since they were passed.
One of the most controversial provisions of the laws states that a woman must have four pious male Muslim witnesses to prove a rape, or face a charge of adultery herself. Men and women found guilty of adultery face stoning to death or 100 lashes.
The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) says the incidence of rape could be higher than the one every two hours reported in the local media.
But the HRCP estimates only a tiny percentage of cases ever go to court either because of the difficulty in proving a crime under Hudood Laws, the social stigma attached to rape, or the use of force by influential people to cover up such incidents.
Of the cases that do reach a lower court, fewer than half lead to prosecution, said commission member Afrasiab Khattack.
"Because of the strict requirement of evidence in Hudood cases, it is very rare that the accused gets convicted," said Naheeda Mehboob Elahi, a women's rights activist and secretary general of the Human Rights Society of Pakistan.
Musharraf stopped short of endorsing a government-appointed commission's recommendations for repeal of the laws, but looked to be preparing the ground for such a move by urging a debate.
Musharraf, who has taken a tough stance against Islamic militants since taking power in a 1999 coup, said there was a need to examine what Islam's holy book, the Koran, and the teachings of the Prophet Mohammad, said on the issue.
"The question is of correct interpretation of the Koran and Sunnah," he said.
The National Commission on the Status of Women, chaired by a former judge, recommended in September that the ordinances be repealed, but parliament has yet to take up the issue.
Successive governments have failed to change the ordinances given stiff opposition from Islamist groups, traditional allies of the military which Musharraf heads.
In his speech, Musharraf also urged Pakistanis to change their attitude towards honour killings, in which male relatives kill women deemed to have offended family honour by marrying without consent or bringing an inadequate dowry.
Musharraf said people in authority who were supposed to deal with the issue had a "negative mindset".
"I would like to urge these people, urge the population of Pakistan, all those who are in a position of authority to try cases, appear as witnesses, to deal with these cases," he said.
Musharraf said it was important for Pakistanis to demonstrate civilised behaviour, "to show we are a tolerant, progressive, educated society".
So Mush thinks that sharia has to be revised in Pakistan to make Pakistan a tolerant, progressive and educated society. Methinks Mush is implying that sharia is the opposite of what he wants Pakistan to be.
Sharia has failed across the muslim world because it belongs to the 7 th century. But be my guest if you want to apply in Ontario between consenting muslims but don't ask me to abide by it.
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Errrrr..... Did you know Head of the Armed Forces General Musharraf is not a Muslim Scholar? And also did you know, all the opposition parties which happened to be Islamic parties totally disagree with him?
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*Originally posted by ak47: * The non muslims can also complain about sharia how much they want let them, they do not complain when capitalist system in the US which executes people by gas, electrocution, lethal injection, shooting etc
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They say this is ok as a detterent in the free world but cutting hands is not.
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*Originally posted by ak47: * Islam is not for 7th century it is for all times this not windows 98 because islam does not need no upgrade!
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True, Shari'ah doesn't need implementing, it needs imposition first.
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*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
They say this is ok as a detterent in the free world but cutting hands is not.
True, Shari'ah doesn't need implementing, it needs imposition first.
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How can you use Sharia law in a non muslim counry when Quran says to muslims to kill non muslims. here it goes,
Q.9: 29
”Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
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*Originally posted by Arvind: *
All those who want to inflict sharia on everybody including non-muslims in North America, just answer me one question. Why did canadian muslim council who is promoting sharia in Ontario for non-criminal disputes between consenting muslims, why are they not asking to use sharia for criminal disputes also? I tell you why chalna, they are afraid that their 15 saalka baccha Salim goes and shoplifts something, they don't want his hand to be cut off. Bottomline, they are giving their opinion about sharia by excluding criminal disputes from its juridiction.
If sharia was such a prefect legal code, how many muslim countries are using it for criminal cases?
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hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhaha
1 of all,u seeem to be so much in affect of media..cannot stiop laughing on ur poor knowledge...1 u said totally wrong thing abt islamic history and now u r saying shriah is not perfect.....reason might be is as u already told and tht reason is strict islamic laws....tell me if islamic laws r not efficient,then y stealing raping killings rates r very very low in saudia arabia....check out taliban government analysis....now a hindu will tell us islamic laws who was saying "islamic laws had nothing to do in muslims sucess" hahahahahahahaha.....i totally support strict islamic laws ..and i also support cutting of hands cuz it will be a horror for others and not to do tht .....u betta read islamic history.....and abt ur saying tht y muslim governments r not adopting islamic laws,reason is very simple...check out middle east how many people representative governments r??? in these countries,unislamic "badshahad" system is there....these all governments r just like toys in front of america...90% muslims want shariah law in their country..even this rate in more in pakistan....oh man u r talking totally wrong thing ..i can just alugh on u...
and ya i just read news in newspaper tht in tamil nado area,plenty of lower caste hindus accpeted islam...reason haha check out urself...u hindus every year killed thousands of muslims,destruct their properties and raped thousands of women...1 care abt ur religion and country mr arvind......i dont no how u people go to "munder" which is extremely horror in looking ...huh....now man reply to me...
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*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
They say this is ok as a detterent in the free world but cutting hands is not.
True, Shari'ah doesn't need implementing, it needs imposition first.
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quite well said dude....islamic laws need imposition...and ya mr sher,disgrace muslims like u have no right to talk on muslim threads..so keep ur kuffar to ur self
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*Originally posted by chalna: *
quite well said dude....islamic laws need imposition...and ya mr sher,disgrace muslims like u have no right to talk on muslim threads..so keep ur kuffar to ur self
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Hey chalna,,, don't make me laugh...... all you have to do is answer the question, MATE. I am just pointing to a Quranic verse and I am not making it up. BTW,,, I like you. Please don't feel offended.
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*Originally posted by Sher: *
How can you use Sharia law in a non muslim counry when Quran says to muslims to kill non muslims. here it goes,
Q.9: 29
”Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
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Errrr.. this is about the times over 14 centuries while the Muslims were facing threats from everywhere and not in the modern day.
If that was to be used today, the world would be a bloodbath, me and you would have been at war with one another.
Another thing my brother.. you should read the 'Tafsir' so you know what each verse of the Qur'an is about before using your own interpretations.
May God Help You
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*Originally posted by chalna: *hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahhaha
1 of all,u seeem to be so much in affect of media..cannot stiop laughing on ur poor knowledge...
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pmsl
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*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
Errrr.. this is about the times over 14 centuries while the Muslims were facing threats from everywhere and not in the modern day.
If that was to be used today, the world would be a bloodbath, me and you would have been at war with one another.
Another thing my brother.. you should read the 'Tafsir' so you know what each verse of the Qur'an is about before using your own interpretations.
May God Help You
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You mean there are some hidden meaning which can not be seen with a naked eye... And who writes that so called Tafseer? If it is not posible to get directly from Quran how can a second hand message help you understand the Book. BTW what is so difficult to understand in the above verse?
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*Originally posted by Sher: * You mean there are some hidden meaning which can not be seen with a naked eye... And who writes that so called Tafseer? If it is not posible to get directly from Quran how can a second hand message help you understand the Book.
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Each verse of the Qur'an was revealed for a specific reason. These revelations came for a period of 23 years.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) then explained the meaning of each of the verse as they came. These explanations, examples and the interpretaions by the Propehet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) were then recorded in the books of the 'Hadiths'.
The Islamic scholars then use these Hadiths (thousands) to interpret the Qur'an. It requires great deal of research, knowledge and undertsanding.
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*Originally posted by Sher: * BTW what is so difficult to understand in the above verse?
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Lack of knowledge.
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*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
Each verse of the Qur'an was revealed for a specific reason. These revelations came for a period of 23 years.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) then explained the meaning of each of the verse as they came. These explanations, examples and the interpretaions by the Propehet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) were then recorded in the books of the 'Hadiths'.
The Islamic scholars then use these Hadiths (thousands) to interpret the Qur'an. It requires great deal of research, knowledge and undertsanding.
Lack of knowledge.
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So these revelations ended when Muhammad died at the age of 63(considering the first revelation happened when Muhammad was 40).
Don't take me wrong... isn't it possible that Muhammad died before the book was completed and God was still working on the conclusion to complete the book. you said "Quran was revealed for a specific reason" how can you relate that specific reason from that point of time and location to todays mixed society?
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*Originally posted by Sher: * So these revelations ended when Muhammad died at the age of 63(considering the first revelation happened when Muhammad was 40).
Don't take me wrong... isn't it possible that Muhammad died before the book was completed and God was still working on the conclusion to complete the book.
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Prophet Muhammed (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) made it clear in his last sermon when he said 'Today I have completed the religion for you'.
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*Originally posted by Sher: * you said "Quran was revealed for a specific reason" how can you relate that specific reason from that point of time and location to todays mixed society?
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Muslims were living in those days with non-muslims is well. Poeple can either get a job to survive or get a job and spend absurdley, complicating their lives. What I mean is that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) himself and his companions were very poor. They didn't buy or built fancy mansions and then worked overtime to earn money to maintain them.
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*Originally posted by MiniMe: *
Yes, It might be Stupid for non muslims, but not for Muslims. Nobody wants Shria for non muslims.
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A whole buch of guppies are arguin on this thread to do just that or didn't you notice that. Go back and read my first post. I said I agree on use of sharia in Ontario for consenting muslims. I even further thatn govt position which allowed apeals of a shaira decision to a secular Candain court. I said other than chaleng on the basis of a contravention of Canadian charter of right. no appeals should be alloed over the shaira court. My reason, which I repeat, we don't want re-decide cases already decided by a sharia court.
** But no way will I support sharia forced on non-muslims as desired by many who have posted here.**
And just when did I say it is stupid for muslims? BTW even Ontario muslims reject its use for criminal cases. Does that mean something to you?
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*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
Errrrr..... Did you know Head of the Armed Forces General Musharraf is not a Muslim Scholar? And also did you know, all the opposition parties which happened to be Islamic parties totally disagree with him?
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How like you to dismiss what Musharraf is saying but such an inane comment! Dispute what he is saying with logic and reason. I guess they didn't teach you in you madrassa.
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*Originally posted by Arvind: * How like you to dismiss what Musharraf is saying but such an inane comment!
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He loves his whiskey.
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*Originally posted by Arvind: *Dispute what he is saying with logic and reason.
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He don't agree with Islamic scholars so what kind of Islam and the Shari'ah is he preaching?
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*Originally posted by Arvind: * I guess they didn't teach you in you madrassa.
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I went to a school in Britain for 5 years and also studied Health and Social Care in college for 3 years. I learnt alot about the Sociology and Psychology. But realised they were talking about discoveries on these understandings by sociologists and psycholgist less than 2 hundered years ago while Islam was talking about these and more profound understandings over a thousand years ago.
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*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
He loves his whiskey.
** There are worse things in life than Mush liking his whiskey. Saudi Kings don't drink but cut your hand off for shop lifting **
He don't agree with Islamic scholars so what kind of Islam and the Shari'ah is he preaching?
** When you don't have any real argument you fall back on alims and mullahs. You are really telling us that you have no brain of your own. You just swallow anything from a mullah.**
I went to a school in Britain for 5 years and also studied Health and Social Care in college for 3 years. .
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** No?**
I gave you an answer. What more do you want? A gold medal?
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*Originally posted by PakistaniDragon: *
I gave you an answer. What more do you want? A gold medal?
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I intend to ingore your posts from now on. Your posts no matter in which forum are not worth reading.