I think the difference is class. UK Paks were brought in the 50s and 60s to do manual work. A small number did come as students as well. The UK Pak population is mostly from Azad Kashmir (although not ethnic Kashmiris!!!) and are mainly Mirpuri. For the Mirpuri, the caste system is really important, even more so then the Hindus ans Sikhs. Hence all this forced marriage business, and tight control over family members. The UK government has also played its role by not adequately funding Pak schools, so they only produce semi-literates who invariable take to crime. There has also been real radicalization, with every other girl waring a burka. Paks are at the bottom of most social indicators, suffering poor housing, ill health, unemployment and other social deprivation.
All in all the condition of the UK Paki is pretty dire.
I am thinking of emigrating to America.
Every other girl wearing a burka? A bit of an exageration.
Brit Muslims don't disparage their religion to try and fit into society but they don't exactly practice it either.
Most Brit Muslims believe in their religion and respect it but they are non-practicing in practice.
You have no idea what the younger generation of Brit Muslims get up to, sadly... It's anything but beards and burkas, trust me.
That’s what being British is all about, standing up for what is right and proper.
I salute the momeory of my countrymen such as Tom Hurndall.
Was Tristan Anderson also not a true American because he didn’t go with the flock??
A minority of British Muslims do join radical groups not out of theological conviction but out of thier alienisation/marginalisation, their ghetto/gangster culture and feelings of victimisation… But you will hardly see anyone over 30 amongst these groups, because once the jawani ka josh dies down they start analysing their beliefs from a logical and theological point of view and they leave these groups to re-join the mainstream Islam of their families.
I love Britain and my countrymen (Muslim or Non-Muslim) and I love Islam but that doesn’t mean I will agree with everything that’s done in the name of my country and/or religion because it says in The Quran (intrepretation of the meaning):
O you who believe! Stand out firmly for Allah as witnesses to fair dealings and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just, that is next to piety. Fear Allah, indeed Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do. (Noble Quran 5 :8)
Umm excuse me? speaking punjabi is not ‘peindu’ or whatever you are trying to say
I guess that depends what part of the US your from, where I’m from everybody celebrates Eid, the people who work take the day off, people who go to school don’t go to their classes to the extent they will get their exam moved if it falls on Eid day…it really depends how you grow up…i mean we only have two holidays and people aren’t even going to celebrate those?!
Every other girl wearing a burka? A bit of an exageration.
Brit Muslims don't disparage their religion to try and fit into society but they don't exactly practice it either.
Most Brit Muslims believe in their religion and respect it but they are non-practicing in practice.
You have no idea what the younger generation of Brit Muslims get up to, sadly... It's anything but beards and burkas, trust me.
I think the Mirpuri factor is the big difference between the US and UK. There culture is very traditional, and as such, struggle to fit into the UK soceity.
I think the Mirpuri factor is the big difference between the US and UK. There culture is very traditional, and as such, struggle to fit into the UK soceity.
Also the history of Imperialism between the UK and what is now Paksitan. While the US is hardly a race neutral society, I do believe that the Brits and Paks have a very different relationship - one that is loaded with history.
^
Bhai jaan, the young Mirpuri generation don't know jack all about history, so that's not a factor.
...Besides Britain country is quite willing to acknowledge the wrongs it committed in the past. British colonism is never glorified in our schools, wrongs are acknowledged...
Whilst in America anything goes in the name of patriotism.
I think the Brit Raj was over demonised anyway, they might have had some negative points but that's with any colonist state, I'm glad when they came to our region when they did, it was much better being ruled by Brits than by Sikhs who were gaining power... At least the white man practiced some level justice/fairness...
The Mogul empire was on its last legs anyway, being ruled by Sikhos or Hindus would be far worse, unlike white people the Sikhs/Hindus don't have a conscience...
It has mostly to do with people's backgrounds which have an impact on their way of thinking, and then education, integration and success.
People who came to US especially early on were professionals and interacted with a different segment of society here anyways. This did start changing and you could see a higher variance in people especially in larger cities. The jahil types seen on devon or in jackson heights are not much different than the jahil types seen in southall. how their kids will turn out would be something to kep track off. Many people in this group were the asylees a number with dabba cases after 9/11 as the immigration crackdown began many left and that can be seen in the shift in workforce at devon where waiters and cooks who were almost always Pakistani has changed.
For a good comparison though, Canada can be taken as an example, and even though the people emigrating there in general were more educated and urban than the blue collared factory workers which overwhelmingly defined early pakistani immigrants, you can still see desi ghettos forming and various socioeconomic groups with a wide gulf.
UK has the same thing but at a much bigger scale, you have people who are at the lower echelons of scoiety, but then you have Pakistanis backgroud folks who have done more than what we have seen Pakistani Americans accomplish. high position in govt, police, military, sports, media..
so lets not completely by ignorant about that aspect.
fairytale- and what are your views about Pakistanis in middle east? ;)
It has mostly to do with people's backgrounds which have an impact on their way of thinking, and then education, integration and success.
People who came to US especially early on were professionals and interacted with a different segment of society here anyways. This did start changing and you could see a higher variance in people especially in larger cities. The jahil types seen on devon or in jackson heights are not much different than the jahil types seen in southall. how their kids will turn out would be something to kep track off. Many people in this group were the asylees a number with dabba cases after 9/11 as the immigration crackdown began many left and that can be seen in the shift in workforce at devon where waiters and cooks who were almost always Pakistani has changed.
For a good comparison though, Canada can be taken as an example, and even though the people emigrating there in general were more educated and urban than the blue collared factory workers which overwhelmingly defined early pakistani immigrants, you can still see desi ghettos forming and various socioeconomic groups with a wide gulf.
UK has the same thing but at a much bigger scale, you have people who are at the lower echelons of scoiety, but then you have Pakistanis backgroud folks who have done more than what we have seen Pakistani Americans accomplish. high position in govt, police, military, sports, media..
so lets not completely by ignorant about that aspect.
fairytale- and what are your views about Pakistanis in middle east? ;)
If you guys in North America get chain migration like the UK, where whole villages have decamped in the UK, then you have problems. For example Luton, Birmingham and Bradford are mainly Mirpuri, East London is mainly Gujarkhani and Jhelumi, and Manchseter, Newcastle and Glasgow are mainly Punjabi. So we have ghetoes within ghetoes, with the Mirpuri living on one side of the street, and the Chach Pathans living on the other. We even have biradarism in the local politics, how backward is that.
Nothing wrong with coming from a pind.
But looking down at Punjabi is soo retarded and lame,
Sadly a lot of Pakistanis associate coming from pind/speaking punjabi with being backwards and ill-mannered. And thats what the new definition of paindu is: ill-mannered, backwards and punjabi speaking.
Very sad.
Sorry if it was off-topic. But it makes me feel disgusted that there are who Pakistanis look down at their roots and feel embarrassed to talk in Punjabi.
US literacy rates suck overall but they have bigger houses.
Don't believe Khan15 who hasn't been outside East London.
Where is your evidence that US Pak literacy rates are poor.
Have a look at the Ousely report, which looked at the causes of the Bradford riots. And various other surveys which show Paks at the bottom of the ladder.
If you guys in North America get chain migration like the UK, where whole villages have decamped in the UK, then you have problems. For example Luton, Birmingham and Bradford are mainly Mirpuri, East London is mainly Gujarkhani and Jhelumi, and Manchseter, Newcastle and Glasgow are mainly Punjabi. So we have ghetoes within ghetoes, with the Mirpuri living on one side of the street, and the Chach Pathans living on the other. We even have biradarism in the local politics, how backward is that.
I am probably one of the few people here who have first hand experience of both UK and USA so know the issues there well.
both are the same I guess except US Pakistanis are bit confused about identifying as muslim+pakistani+Americans and UK Pakistanis are well balanced.
US literacy rates suck overall but they have bigger houses.
Don't believe Khan15 who hasn't been outside East London.
It may be based on who you have been exposed to. I believe the largest muslim gathering outside of a muslim majority country is the ISNA convention in the US. there is a vibrant and active community and identity is managed pretty well from what I have seen.
and I am not sure where you have received the info about Pakistani-americans and literacy rates being bad in US.
as khan 15 noted education stats on the whole for Pakistani origin ppl in UK are pretty bad, I think they are just above bangladeshis and blacks. This is not to say there are not major high achievers, u go to any Uni in UK, even top ones and you will se local Pakistanis in full force, but when averages are seen, there is a large enough group performing subpar that it drags everyone down.
Its really hard to get a feel for what a certain set of people are like unless you have spent a good chunk of years in both countries...and aside from X2 and maybe a handful of others, I doubt many people here are able to draw on such an experience and make a valid judgment.
Where is your evidence that US Pak literacy rates are poor.
Have a look at the Ousely report, which looked at the causes of the Bradford riots. And various other surveys which show Paks at the bottom of the ladder.
