^ Excellent post. It doesn't take much for lunatics to start jumping up and down in their blind hatred for the US (whose money is now propping up the Pakistani economy) without considering all facts.
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*Originally posted by Insaaniat: *
If the area was in FATA how come this has violated the Pakistan's sovereignty (remmber we do not have full control) and plus the fact it was started from Pakistani side.
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Inform Qazi Sahib.
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*Originally posted by Insaaniat: *
On one side its Al-Qaida and Taliban and on other side its US army. A soveriegn nation means not outside army then when should we allow Al-Qaida and Taliban to roame free in Pakistan?? same rules apply to all. Either have them all or none in Pakistan.
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you cannot use the term "sovereig nation" and "allowing" foreign armies inside in the same breadth, unless such foreign army was first requested by the nation. when such army is in a country without such request, that country has lost its soverignty ...plain and simple. If the country 'requested' foreign help to protect itself from internal (or external)terrorists, while it may offend some ego's, we can atleast say that country is trying to protect its citizenry at any cost.
it is also offensive to equanimate the US forces with Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda is not an army of any nation but is network of terrorist crooks made up of religious extremists and fundamentalists from Saudi Arabia, pakistan and a few other countries that turn a blind eye to such terror tactics and religious fundamentalism.
The US military on the other hand is a protector of freedom for the people and just causes in the world.
Very scary news....Pakistan Army can actually enter the tribal areas they have major cantonments there. Politically there is no rule of law because of the Federal governments FCR laws, which gives huge powers to bureaucrats. The border between Pakistan and Afghanistan is not clearly defined as well because of the terrain, its not surprising that border patrols from our side cross over.
In any case, no self respecting nation would allow this to happen without a major diplomatic protest.
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*Originally posted by Jagjeevan: *
you cannot use the term "sovereig nation" and "allowing" foreign armies inside in the same breadth, unless such foreign army was first requested by the nation. when such army is in a country without such request, that country has lost its soverignty ...plain and simple.
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Read comments of Insaaniant regarding FATA.
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*Originally posted by Zakk: *
Very scary news....Pakistan Army can actually enter the tribal areas they have major cantonments there.
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Yes, that's the news I heard a while back. Pakistan Army took the risk.
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The border between Pakistan and Afghanistan is not clearly defined as well because of the terrain, its not surprising that border patrols from our side cross over.
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It hasn't been well-defined because Afghans don't consider Durand Line as a border b/w two countries.
so is FATA pakistan or not?
If Yes then the pakistan junta is responsible for what happens and does not happen there.
If No, then stop calling FATA part of the 'sovereign' domain and the US can do whatever they please there.
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*Originally posted by Jagjeevan: *
so is FATA pakistan or not?
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FATA comes in Pakistan, i.e Yes, it is the part of Pakistan, where Pakistanis can't go. Got that?
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If Yes then the pakistan junta is responsible for what happens and does not happen there.
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I disagree. How come a person living in Gwadar could be responsible for what happened on the border recently?
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If No, then stop calling FATA part of the 'sovereign' domain and the US can do whatever they please there.
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Jagjeevan,
When Brits ruled India, they also never been to FATA; and it has been told to US by Pakistan, allowing such actions, won't solve the problem, but would add the mess hell out of it.
Tiger, I'll admit I don't understand the constitution of FATA as you describe but will defer to your knowledge on the subject.
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*Originally posted by Jagjeevan: *
Tiger, I'll admit I don't understand the constitution of FATA as you describe but will defer to your knowledge on the subject.
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Jagjeevan,
FATA has got her own consititution. I hope RajputFury or Zakk will imply more on this subject.
As far as I know, Pakistanis aren't allow to go to FATA[Tribes Province]. Pakistan Army took a risk and been to FATA, ended up losing 18 of its soldiers last year. Obviously, we don't want this event to happened again.
To be honest, I've no idea what the FATA is about. I'm glad you've raised these points. I only know that Pakistanis aren't allow to go to FATA. That's it. It's a disturbing area and a place where smuggling could be done easily on free-hands.
Pakistanis ARE allowed to go to FATA, however it is done with approval of the local Malik, and at your own risk. I have personally visited Miram Shah, which in my mind is a quasi capital of the territories, Parachinar in Kurram Agency.. My hosts were really fantastic people who were well placed in the tribal order, but lets just say that a precaution of arming was necessary. People, and I mean average people are living like virtual slaves of their leaders. It is a virtual danger zone, where hearing gunfire is a daily occurence. Voting is a joke, as the loyalties to the chief override any other factor. Many people were outwardly anti-Pakistani not because of some riducolus reason, but rather for their justifiable complaint of lack of development and involvement on the "federal" level. Basically the Pakistan government agent and the Malik negotiate a price for their loyalty. Certainly not the way to go as the anger of the average person is growing. NWFP is divided between FATA and the "settled" districts of Peshawar Valley plus Hazara. While the settled districts have prospered, FATA has remained backward and stagnant.
Take a deep note right here, Pakistanis/Pakistanis Soldiers aren't allow to go to FATA. And it is very easy for Fugitives to go do Terrorist Activities either in Afghanistan or Pakistan and take a refugee in FATA. I know adding US wouldn't solve the mess but to say you don't wanna see Pakistanis getting involved in someone's else issues is untrue. Our people always tend to involve in other's issue. Lack of Education should be blame.
Pakistani soldiers ARE allowed to go there. I don't want terrorists to be there either how can we stop that? By allowing the Americans come in with us to hunt them down? Certainly not the way to go. I mentioned earlier that FATA still heavily supports the Talibs, and so think of the anti-Americanism that is rampant in the area. A smart idea (in my opinion) would be to remove any and all American presence, allow Pakistani soldiers to go in and search for any threatening elements. If we do find fugitives lets not catch them and hand them to the US like stooges but rather send them back to their country of origin, let THAT country decide. Why should WE get involved in this mess? For the record, do you know that the raids in FATA has been a bitter failure? Its because all the fugitives end up being tipped off before the Pakistanis/Americans even arrive!
Not only are we wasting our time with these searches but also provoking unnecessary anger. PT, you know that the Afghanis already hate us, for the people of FATA to join them in hatred would be tragic. Think about it.
Raj,
Thanks for your informative input about FATA.
The Interior Minister of Pakistan, Faisal Saleh Hayat, have already warned United States, not to cross into the Pakistan’s Territory.
President Musharraf and US General Tommy Frank, today, are going to discuss border clash
Presidential Spokeman, Major Rashid Qureshi have already confirmed no foreign raids are allowed in Pakistan’s Territory.
Pakistani soldiers ARE allowed to go there.
Raj, don’t you remember we lost our 18 Soldiers in FATA/districts of NWFP? I admit people in FATA do support Talibans but look how we got ended up. You said Pakistani Soldiers should go to FATA and look for fugitives, what gurantees FATA can give not to target Soldiers again?
Again, I won’t prefer US to be in Pakistan’s Territory. Neither want another Vietnam as an American.
PT, you know that the Afghanis already hate us, for the people of FATA to join them in hatred would be tragic. Think about it
Yeah, the do hate us but not all of them. Most of the them would be the members of Northern Alliance, a group which really hate Pastuns[if I’m not wrong]. Dostum name comes to mind.
That’s why Karazai is the head of Afghanistan chosen to lower and stablize the region of Pakistan/Afghanistan; and he consider Pakistan not as a neighbor but as a friend of Afghanistan. 
This is rather alarming. Its also setting a dangereous precedent for any future such adventures by US forces inside the Pak territory. The building that was bombed by an air-raid was definitely inside the Pak territory, you may call it FATA or NWFP or whatever.
It made news on LA Times as well as Guardian.
some pakistanis say even if other countries attack pakistan will attck india
Any attack by any nation against Pakistan would bring immediate retaliation — against India, with whom Islamabad has fought and lost three wars, a former army chief of staff says.
“Our policy of deterrence is India-specific. No matter who comes for us, Israel, the United States or India we will take on India. If someone is thinking of taking on Pakistan they should know we will take on India,” said Former Army Chief of Staff Aslam Beg, who now heads an independent right-wing think tank in the federal capital.
rvikz yaar, fortunately the military in pak doesnt hold same views as this Aslam Beg nor is he the official think-tank of the military.
The deposed ISI chief just wants his 15 minutes of fame, if ya catch me drift :D
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Pakistan ‘blocks’ al-Qaeda pursuits
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Pakistan has denied that the US has been given the right to pursue Taleban and al-Qaeda suspects fleeing across its border from Afghanistan.
Pakistan’s Information Minister Sheikh Rashid Ahmed told the BBC that American forces could not cross the border from Afghanistan in hot pursuit.
Ok, so FATA kinda sounds like the old west - local law, occasional deals with the 'federal / union' etc.
It also seems like you are saying there is either significant Afgan presence (old taliban) or intense sympathy.
Leaving the recent complexity of US presence aside, what was the reason the pakistan govt did not attempt to or succeed in bringing these areas under normalized control - say between 1950 and 1970? or between 1975 and 1990?
Pakistan, allied forces trade fire
http://www.dawn.com/2003/01/04/top9.htm
**"The situation on both sides of the Pakistan-Afghan border has remained very tense despite efforts by the concerned quarters to resolve the trouble which had started after exchange of fire between the Pakistani scouts and allied troops over territorial violations in North Waziristan. "
**
The situationin Waziristan is tense and their may be Taliban supporters and Al-Qaeda members fuelling this tense atemsphere. Whatever is the case The FATA should know that they cant withstand the military might of US nor did Pakistan has any capacity to resist US pressure.
Pakistan is being sandwich beween people of FATA and US. If we want to stop US crossing border then we also need assurances from FATA that no idiot will try to cross border to Afghanistan or attack the US patrols and then hide in FATA area.
This hit and hide tactic will not work for long . Soon or later US will cross border and hunt these people themselves if FATA or Pakistan will not stop these attackes.
I hope our pathans in FATA take this issue very serious and realistic consideration.
Now, we are talkin’ dude.
Pakistan Denies U.S. Claim of Right To Enter While Pursuing al-Qaeda, Taliban
Pakistan on Saturday strongly refuted U.S. claims that American troops had the right to enter Pakistan territory in pursuit of suspected al Qaeda and Taliban fighters crossing from Afghanistan.
Foreign Minister Mian Khursheed Mehmood Kasuri said on Saturday: **"Operations within Pakistani territory would be conducted solely and exclusively by our own forces and in response to decisions taken by Pakistan.
“Our forces are fully capable of securing and protecting Pakistan’s borders,”** he added, reading from a prepared statement.
According to Kasuri, Secretary of State Colin Powell and Pakistan President Pervez Musharraf spoke about the incident by telephone on Friday and agreed it may have been due to a **“misunderstanding at the operational level on the ground.” **
**“They reiterated the need to further strengthen coordination to ensure that such incidents do not happen in future,” ** he said.
PT, thanks for the articles…great to hear a response from the govt, whether it will actually be implemented remains to be seen.
Pakistan’s military has been allowed to enter. Like it or not Frontier Corps are a paramilitary organization that comes under the command of Pakistan Armed forces, they consist of young men from the FATA patrolling the border. I think what your referring to is Pakistan XI Corps based in Pekhawar, they consist of the actual Army and the 18 soldiers who were shaheed came from XI. PT, do you know why that heppened? It was because the Pak. Mil stepped in with the Americans without previous knowledge, so the locals couldnt tip the terrorists off, so for once they were caught off guard. We can have IX enter as long as we make sure that Pakhtuns form the majority in that force. The tribal areas are very sensitive to non-Pakhtuns, so we can maybe negate that element. Adding Americans is a non starters from the get go, as ANY tribal chief will balk at that.
As for the Afghan situation, it really blew up at our faces. Believe it or not but the Talibs were the best for us, that whole OBL situation really screwed us over. Karzai is a puppet-- a stooge of the US, he knows it so does the rest of the world. The NA is in power now. PT, Dostum is NOTHING compared to those low life Tajiks. Dostum, an Uzbek, released hundreds of Pakistanis prsioners on Aug 14 and at Eid but those SOB, Watan Faroosh, Khinzeer Tajiks TRANSFERRED Pakistani prisoners to India and C.Asia!! You know why they did it? It was because those poor misguided Pakistanis were largely Pashtuns from NWFP who went to fight with their Pashtun brothers in Afghanistan. Things look real bad for Pashtuns in Afghanistan, only Hekmatyar is the only Pakhtun fighting thus far. We need to make sure that Pashtuns are not trampled upon by the others in Afghanistan, if that means supporting Karzai to the hilt, then so be it.