US approves Israeli radar sale to India

http://famulus.msnbc.com/FamulusIntl/reuters05-22-020357.asp?reg=MIDEAST

With tensions in South Asia easing, the United States has lifted its objections to Israel’s sale of an advanced Phalcon radar system to India, U.S. officials said on Thursday.


This is not good at all. When India gets the Phalcon radar system operational in just over 2 years’ time, their air combat potential will be greatly enhanced.

The PAF badly needs increased funding to complete its purchase of airborne radar systems in the very near future to counter this development. With military sanctions relaxed following 9/11, the options available to Pakistan have dramatically increased in number - time to carpe diem

mAd_sCiEnTiSt , the Phalcon system when inducted into the IAF will pose a considerable threat to Pakistan's airspace, or for that matter even China's airspace . However, I have a feeling that this go-ahead from Washington's side is a kind of reward for the recent thaw in Indo-Pak relations . The differential in situational awareness after this system's induction will be overwhelming . Thus, I feel that US will not allow this deal in isolation, but might approve the sale of the E-2C's to Pakistan . The E-2C's, though not as capable as the Phalcons will be good enough for PAF to hold it's own in the face of an attack . But, the talk about E-2C's is all speculation and nothing about it is official as yet .

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PegasusOnline: *
mAd_sCiEnTiSt , the Phalcon system when inducted into the IAF will pose a considerable threat to Pakistan's airspace, or for that matter even China's airspace . However, I have a feeling that this go-ahead from Washington's side is a kind of reward for the recent thaw in Indo-Pak relations . The differential in situational awareness after this system's induction will be overwhelming . Thus, I feel that US will not allow this deal in isolation, but might approve the sale of the E-2C's to Pakistan . The E-2C's, though not as capable as the Phalcons will be good enough for PAF to hold it's own in the face of an attack . But, the talk about E-2C's is all speculation and nothing about it is official as yet .
[/QUOTE]

Last I had heard, Pakistan was looking into Brazilian and Swedish airborne radar systems. The problem was that both radars were attached to planes that used US components, and sanctions against Pakistan at that time meant that these countries were not allowed to make a sale.

The only solution for Pakistan is an improved economy to fund the improvement in PAF and more tarnsfer of tecnology when Arms sales are done.

No, the only solution is to stop creating unnecessary wars...for Pakistan or for anyother country for that matter!~ We are bleeping suffering for food and shelter in both countries and buying freaking radar planes is just plain mutty

As long as the Indian pilots are flying the planes, there would be nothing to worry about.

mAd_sCiEnTiSt, I mentioned the E-2C from USA because there was a news report recently in an Indian news website which was enlisting the various goodies which Pakistan was wanting from American . Among many items, the E-2C was also mentioned . Ofcourse, wanting something and getting something are two different things, especially if you want to get defense equipment from USA . That's the reason . I am aware that of-late the really viable AWACS option that PAF has in economic and political terms is to obtain the system with the Erieye system from Sweden mated to the frame of the Embraer aircrafts from Brazil . But until the deal is through, I guess we shall have to wait and watch .

In April 2000, India had leased Russian AWACS systems in order to test them and to know about their capability for eventual sales . Even though, the IAF was not satisfied with the overall performance of the AWACS and halted any sales, the article below which appeared in the Pakistani defence magazine named DefenceJournal shows the effect that an AWACS can have on overall air-space management . Also, the new system which IAF is stated to get from Israel is vastly superior to the Russian AWACS which was available for the IAF .

The link to the article :
http://www.defencejournal.com/2000/july/awacs.htm

Relevant excerpts from the article :

" With this enhanced air surveillance and interception capability the IAF will have foreknowledge of the aerial and ground activity at PAF air bases and air defence installations. These AWACs can detect the number of aircraft flying in the air, parked or taxing on the ground. They will know the location and deployment of Pakistani radars, missiles i.e. SAM’s, surface to surface missiles, IRBM’s, nuclear installations, military concentrations, armour and artillery deployments, POL depots, power houses, and vital infrastructure. The IAF AWACs could even monitor air and rail movements and the traffic on Pakistani highways. The daily flying of IAF’s Russian built AWACs to obtain a photo and video view of all activity in the air or on the ground to a depth of 300 KM is a very dangerous development and in fact a provocation in the prevailing volatile Pak-India relations "

" Hostile aircraft entering Pakistan’s air space will be forewarned. IAF commanders on board the AWAC’s will know as the PAF commanders ACTIVATE VARIOUS ELEMENTS OF AIR DEFENCE to destroy enemy fighter bombers before they could reach targeted VP/VA’s. "

" Even with the mobility of Pakistani radars, SAM’s and nukes, the Indian AWAC’s will track them relentlessly. This implies serious loss of secrecy and confidentiality vital to the maintenance of minimum deterrence by Pakistan . "

" The communication range of the A-50 AWAC is unlimited because of space relay satellites. Communications with ships and submarines at sea are also possible. These AWAC’s can carry out maritime recce, and could warn Indian Navy ships and submarines about the presence of foreign ships nearby. They could track PN ships and in collaboration with in maritime recce aircraft direct Indian Navy Harriers and IAF SU30-K bombers to attack Pakistani ships in coastal waters or at high seas. The presence of Russian A-50 AWAC’s in the region greatly upgrades India’s capacity to dominate South Asian air space and the Indian Ocean. Flying along the Chinese borders they could violate Chinese air space and create similar threat for Peoples Republic of China. "

How is deploying radar equipment violation of Pakistan or Chinese air space? In principle, it's no different than listening devices used by all nations - only more powerful. That's why US, Israel, India, Russia, China, France and a number of others (Swiss also I think) are devoting a lot of research to jamming and decoy technologies

India and the Phalcon sale
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_29-5-2003_pg3_6
Wajahat Ali

Remote sensing satellites can determine the patterns of enemy forces, detect the gaps and keep an eye on military movements. Indian satellites can therefore become a potent threat, especially during a nuclear standoff

India plans to buy more sophisticated defence equipment from Israel, a country that has already become the second largest exporter of arms to New Delhi. The latest item on the shopping list is the Israeli-manufactured Phalcon Airborne Early Warning and Control System (AWACS), which will cost India US$1.2 billion. While the deal went through last year, the delivery of the system was delayed after Washington asked Tel Aviv to postpone its deal in the wake of India-Pakistan standoff. Now that the subcontinent is limping towards a peace process, the US, earlier this month, gave Israel a nod to go ahead with the transfer. India plans to mount the system on Russian-built aircraft to watch the border with Pakistan and is “tying up some issues, including with the Russians, before completing the purchase”.

Earlier, the United States had a nearly five-year diplomatic standoff with Israel after Tel Aviv struck a deal with Beijing in 1996 for sale to China of the Phalcon system. Under incessant pressure from Washington, Tel Aviv finally called off the deal in early 2001. US officials have indicated that Washington has no objection to Israel’s deal with India since Tel Aviv needed to be recompensed; besides, the sale would keep the system away from China.

Reacting to the development, Pakistan has warned it would not sit back if the deal comes through. Foreign Secretary Riaz A Khokhar, while addressing the UN Conference on Disarmament, described the unfolding situation as a matter of ‘utmost importance’ to Islamabad. He maintained that the sale would drastically affect the conventional military balance in South Asia, adding that India and Pakistan should strive for strategic stability in the region instead of entering into an arms race with each other.

Sources say, however, that Pakistan is not merely concerned with India’s bid to acquire high-tech military technology. The defence establishment has long been alarmed by India’s efforts to integrate its air defence system with its ambitious space programme — “a mechanism which was either not well in place during the Kargil episode or failed at that time” — to extract maximum strategic advantage in case of a flare up with Pakistan.

India already has an ambitious, though at many places stalled, IGMDP (Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme). But its crust is formed by the Ground Environment System — a cluster of radars along with its western and northern borders — that works with civilian air traffic control to detect unwanted flying objects in Indian airspace while its core is constituted by the Base Air Defence Zones, set up to guard key nuclear and military installations.

Indian defence experts believe the prospects of a penetration into the airspace are negligible. Some of them argue, however, that a “sneak attack” cannot be ruled out. Such a scenario — which, they think, Pakistan is capable of creating — assumes that one or two F-16s, after outmanoeuvring the Indians, can drop a nuclear bomb on New Delhi. But this contention is challenged by another group of analysts which maintains that such a strike would require a greater number of aircrafts — “since the bombers would be protected by the escort planes” — and as the Indians see a formation like that in their airspace they would presume that a nuclear strike is underway.

Sources believe if such a defence mechanism is underpinned by remote sensing satellites — and “almost five of them are orbiting the earth” — it will have major implications for Indian military operations. They recall New Delhi’s claim of sharing “intelligence information” — in a bid to implicate Pakistan as a terrorist state — with Washington shortly after the September 11 attacks took place. Some believe the package contained satellite images of alleged “terrorist camps” in Azad Kashmir, though the US did not pay much attention to Indian evidence “since it not only required Islamabad’s assistance at that time but also knew how countries tampered with such images to pursue their policy objectives”.

Remote sensing satellites can determine the patterns of enemy forces, detect the gaps and keep an eye on military movements. This not only has the ability to minimise an enemy’s options even before the first shots are fired in a war but can also help select appropriate targets for an air attack.

Indian satellites can therefore become a potent threat, especially during a nuclear standoff. While anti-satellite technology is expensive to acquire, it is equally difficult to ascertain the patterns of remote sensors movements, as it can be changed from time to time for security reasons.

Will it have implications for deterrence in South Asia? Experts nod at this question categorically. India’s nuclear doctrine declares that New Delhi is wedded to the notion of “no first use”. This requires it to bolster its defences to reduce the chances of a nuclear strike from an adversary. Pakistan, on the other hand, does not consider penetrating into enemy airspace — as some Indians assume — but it is liable to counter enemy offensives with its deterrent if it becomes impossible to thwart the attack using conventional means. Since this can only yield tactical benefits and add to the possibility of what New Delhi describes as ‘punitive retaliation’, it may use nuclear-tipped missiles in the next wave of attacks. Except for ‘Ghauri’, however, Pakistani missiles cannot target every corner of India.

Sources say, however, that there are two problems with this scenario: firstly, the range of Pakistani missiles is limited and secondly, the Indians are frantically working to develop an anti-ballistic missile system. In fact, a recent report in The Indian Express claimed that Washington could soon release the Patriot anti-missile system to New Delhi. If that happens, it will seriously call the credibility of Pakistan’s deterrence into question. Sources believe, however, that media reports like this are nothing beyond an indication that the Indians have outsmarted Pakistan on the diplomatic turf since New Delhi has persuaded the world that Islamabad has not ended “cross-border terrorism” due to excessive reliance on nuclear sabre-rattling.

“Such reports are but a way to pressurise Pakistan to get serious and talk peace,” said an analyst.

The writer is Assistant Editor at Daily Times

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by IceLander007: *
How is deploying radar equipment violation of Pakistan or Chinese air space? In principle, it's no different than listening devices used by all nations - only more powerful. That's why US, Israel, India, Russia, China, France and a number of others (Swiss also I think) are devoting a lot of research to jamming and decoy technologies
[/QUOTE]

You misunderstand the usage of the word 'violate' in this context. What the author means is that Indian AWACS planes will be able scan Chinese airspace too, unsettling China in the same way that the US spy plane flights on the edge of Chinese airspace tend to attract Chinese fighters.

Pakistan does'nt want E-2Cs. Doesnt fit the needs. They have been offered a few times to PAF and were declined everytime.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by mAd_ScIeNtIsT: *

You misunderstand the usage of the word 'violate' in this context. What the author means is that Indian AWACS planes will be able scan Chinese airspace too, unsettling China in the same way that the US spy plane flights on the edge of Chinese airspace tend to attract Chinese fighters.
[/QUOTE]

Ok I got that. Now I'll be surprised if China isn't already doing that to us. Or are the Chinese not that advanced in e.w.radars?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by IceLander007: *

Ok I got that. Now I'll be surprised if China isn't already doing that to us. Or are the Chinese not that advanced in e.w.radars?
[/QUOTE]

I think they have primitive AWACS systems at this point - hence their eagerness to buy the Phalcon from Israel (vetoed by USA).

The fact that India will be deploying the Phalcon will no doubt force China to quickly purchase an alternative system in the near future.

who--me, I know that the E-2C was offered to Pakistan, around about the same time the F-16's were purchased ( and the F-20's were offered ) . But the military planners at that time thought that they could get better and rejected the E-2C, putting forth a demand for the more advanced E-3's . In my point of view that was a grave mistake, because in today's time, when you consider the delay in the S7 project and the Phalcon deal, Pakitan's air-defence situation would have been a whole lot better if they had gone on to buy the E-2C . Not to mention that they would have had this capability a lot earlier than the Indian Air Force, as it was only recently that the Russian AWACS were offered . Now I am not so sure as to why you call it inadequate. Well, you can only call it inadequate if you have better options, but when you have a few real options ( few read as one ), then that option is the best . Besides, the E-2C is a fine AEW system .

IceLander, yes it can be considered to be an offensive act. The reason for this being that in an aircraft the primary mean of target detection and target attacking is performed by a radar . This means that when you turn on your radar, then from the point of view of a hostile aircraft, you might be trying to attack him, and not just detect him . To give a simpler explanation for the above concept, consider an analogy between an aircraft loaded with missiles and a thug armed with gun . The thug can have the intention of looting the mall ( without injuring anybody ) or he might be looking to kill someone . In either case he will have to conduct survellaince, look out for cops, and then aim at his target . It is precisely this aiming which is as offenive as the turning-on of a radar . The thug might not shoot at all after aiming, just as the aircraft might not fire at you even after turning-on his radar . But, if one is faced with a gun pointed at him, then one will surely try to do something about it, because you really do not know as to whether you will be attacked or not, and the same should be said about an aircraft it is painted by a radar of an enemy aircraft .

mAd_sCiEnTiSt, well I doubt that it will be as provocative as the Hainan event, because in that case the EP-3 was flying very cloe to the Chinese airspace . American reports indicate that they were close to the airspace but over international territory, whereas Chinese ones report that the plane was inside Chinese territory . In the case of survellaince by the Indian Phalcons, I doubt that they will be flown close to the border, and in that case, it might not be as offensive . China has already ordered the Russian AWACS and will get the first one sometime in 2004 .

Pegasus...in these days of electronic remote intelligence and war fare, early warning radars are nothing. It is important but nothing ground breaking in my opinion. Every country is snooping on every one else's satellites, microwaves, and any form signals...My surmise is that it is not how or how many transmissions you pick up but how many and how fast you can decode and comprehend. That brings us all the way back to future and how the WWII was won - back office code breakers now armed with super computers.

In my opinion therefore, India's strategic advantage is their elite and abundant corp of software engineers and programmers. It is no co-incidence that Israel, Russia as well as in a slightly different way China & France, are emerging as leaders along with India.

Many tend to broadswipe the software advantage as information technology for earning a few billion dollars forgtting this sort of capability it brings

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by IceLander007: *
Pegasus...in these days of electronic remote intelligence and war fare, early warning radars are nothing. It is important but nothing ground breaking in my opinion. Every country is snooping on every one else's satellites, microwaves, and any form signals...My surmise is that it is not how or how many transmissions you pick up but how many and how fast you can decode and comprehend. That brings us all the way back to future and how the WWII was won - back office code breakers now armed with super computers.

In my opinion therefore, India's strategic advantage is their elite and abundant corp of software engineers and programmers. It is no co-incidence that Israel, Russia as well as in a slightly different way China & France, are emerging as leaders along with India.

Many tend to broadswipe the software advantage as information technology for earning a few billion dollars forgtting this sort of capability it brings
[/QUOTE]

The means to collect information will be as critical as the means to process it . But, the priority has to be given to the information collection methods, because if you cannot collect information, what will you process/analyse ?

AWACS only for providing warnings first. No shooting. After warning all manual. MAy be USA has automatic shooting attacking but not normally attached.

Israel and India are developing a lightweight helicopter together.

The sale of radar equipment is not a surprise the real target is China not Pakistan.

China was also after sophisticated radar equipment and US blocked sale of same rader to the Chinese but allowed to India?

America has reduced its military support to rebuild Pakistan’s air force and Navy by denying it weapons parts and planes. America has also sought to restrict Pakistan’s defence expenditure by using the IMF to demand defence cuts. Recently, America has applied pressure on Ukraine to stop is sales of military hardware. It was reported in the Dawn that Ukrainian Foreign Minister Anatoly Zlenko said his country had stopped supplying military hardware to Pakistan and wanted to discuss ways to enhance defence cooperation with New Delhi. This is because America no longer regards Pakistan as its principal agent in the region.

This should indicate to any political astitute observer, America wants India to become the dominant power in the region, which will not only pose a threat to China but also curb the growing influence of Islam in the sub-continent.

:konfused: