Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

[Spock]

@janab-e-ali

I thought you wanted to ape the Indian system?

The Indian constitution recognizes Hindi in Devanagiri script as India’s sole national language, with provisions for the use of English as an ancillary official language. The 22 regional languages you speak of are only given the status of “scheduled languages” at the federal level…and quite a few of those languages receive very little actual support from the federal government.

Janab being a Kashmiri seperatist, for once, post without your hatred for India, because you arent making any sense. India has done a fanstastic job of preserving its languages, and its about time we preserve our languages too. If you were Pakistani, I’d ask you are so scared about preserving these wonderful languages, but since you’re not theres no point. Also, we dont need any support from the Federal Govt for these languages in Pakistan.

What you just said is wrong, or maybe you didnt read properly when you posted that from wikipedia. Let me post the whole thing:

Article 343 of the Indian Constitution](Constitution of India - Wikipedia) recognises Hindi](Hindi - Wikipedia) in Devanāgarī](Devanagari - Wikipedia) script as the official language](Official language - Wikipedia) of the **Union Government](Government of India - Wikipedia). The states](States and union territories of India - Wikipedia) have their own official languages, depending on their linguistic demographics. For example, the state of Tamil Nadu](Tamil Nadu - Wikipedia) has Tamil](Tamil language - Wikipedia) as its sole official language, while the state of Jammu and Kashmir](Jammu and Kashmir - Wikipedia) has **Kashmiri](Kashmiri language - Wikipedia), Urdu](Urdu - Wikipedia) and Dogri](Dogra - Wikipedia) as its official languages.

[Himalaya]

If you could speak Pashtu then you would understand how badly and how unwillingly most Farsiwans speak Pashtu.

In fact quite a few know better Urdu and Hindi. Pakistan's language scheme will end up like Afghanistan's - a paper policy.

When India has over 20 official languages with working implementation - what does that mean? How are these languages implemented and used?

So now you are quoting examples of other countries? I already did that, India has over 20 official languages with a working implementation. Please give examples of succesful countries, not Afghanistan. btw, all the farsiwans that I know and have come across can speak Pashtu rather well.

[Spock]

Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

No it wont. Also here is a very nice analysis of political consequences of imposing Urdu in Pakistan, from Tariq Rehman of the Quid-e-Azam University.

In short, the state’s use of Urdu as a symbol of national integration has had two consequences. First, it has made Urdu the obvious force to be resisted by ethnic groups. This resistance makes them strengthen their languages by corpus planning (writing books, dictionaries, grammars, orthographies etc) and acquisition planning (teaching the languages, using them in the media pressurizing the state to use them; for these terms see Cooper 1989). **Secondly, it has jeopardized additive multilingualism as recommended by UNESCO and, of course, by many eminent linguists and educationists (Cf., Edwards 1994). As Urdu spreads through schooling, media and urbanization, pragmatic pressures make the other Pakistani languages retreat. In short, the consequence of privileging Urdu strengthens ethnicity while, at the same time and paradoxically, threatens linguistic and cultural diversity in the country.**

[Himalaya]

It appears you support the current provincial structure. The provinces are drawn by colonial masters and carried forward by an elite who behave as their previous masterss. You would have a recipe for disaster:-

1. Chitralis and Hindkowans are already objecting to the renaming of NWFP yet if Pashtu is an official language they will be forced into learning it - the only solution would be redraw pakhtun khwa.

2. Enforcement of Sindh in places such as Karachi and Hyderabad will trigger a backlash not just by Muhajirs but resistance from Punjabis pashtuns and Balochis. We all know what Muhajir wouldd do if Sindhi was enforced upon them - i dont see punjabis pashtuns and balochis in Urban sindh rushing out to learn Sindhi -

3. enforcement of balochi in balochistan will cause huge resebtment against pashtuns , hazaras, brohis. Zhob, loralaai, chaman, pishin, ziaat are pashtu speaking areas. Quetta is a multi-lingual city

4. what about the northern areas? are nt they a part of pakistan? what language wil be their official language? burshahski? shena? wakhi?
   not to for get AJK

5. seraikis are geenrally bilingual but what if theydecided we are notgoing to be foced to read and write punjabi when we cant read or write our own?

You would need to redraw provincial boundaries or better still make much smaller provinces which relfect linguistic groups and dlialects better. Pakistan is not just apunjabi balochi sindhi pashtun made country and as tiem passes ethnicities are spreading out more.

One can make any language an official language but then this has to be backed by action. Road sings in the language, the language they are taught in at school, letters printed in the language by official government departments, andso forth

Without an overhaul of the education system nothing can be achieved. The biggest problem is literacy - when more and more people become literate then more and more people will learn their own languages in a written manner.

Yooki, your last sentence makes the point, BUT in my context

I am not in favor of a single sole national language, there should be atleast 6 official languages, giving due consideration to the four main provincial languages, and in addition to that, Urdu and English. Urdu can be used in the center, by the Govt and should be taught in all four provinces, along with the the respective provincial language of that particular province. Once we get this system going, yes these languages wont go extinct, and then maybe we can worry about the other less spoken languages. We have to start somewhere.

[Spock]

Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

^ the joke, like I said, once we get rid of Urdu's sole imposition, we can start somewhere, by incorporating the other provincial languages, and THEN worry about the 'minor' languages that hardly anyone speak as opposed to provincial languages which are more rampant compared to Urdu.. Like I said, we have to start somewhere.

[Spock]

No it wont. Also here is a very nice analysis of political consequences of imposing Urdu in Pakistan, from Tariq Rehman of the Quid-e-Azam University.

In short, the state’s use of Urdu as a symbol of national integration has had two consequences. First, it has made Urdu the obvious force to be resisted by ethnic groups. This resistance makes them strengthen their languages by corpus planning (writing books, dictionaries, grammars, orthographies etc) and acquisition planning (teaching the languages, using them in the media pressurizing the state to use them; for these terms see Cooper 1989). **Secondly, it has jeopardized additive multilingualism as recommended by UNESCO and, of course, by many eminent linguists and educationists (Cf., Edwards 1994). As Urdu spreads through schooling, media and urbanization, pragmatic pressures make the other Pakistani languages retreat. In short, the consequence of privileging Urdu strengthens ethnicity while, at the same time and paradoxically, threatens linguistic and cultural diversity in the country.**

Again, the point in bold above is very true, and the fact that the 8% or so Urdu speakers here who are afraid of other provincial languages are actually the ones indirectly making sure Pakistan gets more cultural and linguistic division.

[abdelyuuki]

^ the joke, like I said, once we get rid of Urdu's sole imposition, we can start somewhere, by incorporating the other provincial languages, and THEN worry about the 'minor' languages that hardly anyone speak as opposed to provincial languages which are more rampant compared to Urdu.. Like I said, we have to start somewhere.

It is these 'minor' languages that are facing the HIGHEST risk of extinction. Enforcing another language upon them, would further be detrimental to any efforts made by locals to revive or keep their languages going.

[abdelyuuki]

I thought you wanted to ape the Indian system?

The Indian constitution recognizes Hindi in Devanagiri script as India's sole national language, with provisions for the use of English as an ancillary official language. The 22 regional languages you speak of are only given the status of "scheduled languages" at the federal level...and quite a few of those languages receive very little actual support from the federal government.

yaaaaar are you related to Syed Geelani by any chance? lol :D

[Spock]

It is these 'minor' languages that are facing the HIGHEST risk of extinction. Enforcing another language upon them, would further be detrimental to any efforts made by locals to revive or keep their languages going.

Yes, which is why we cant enforce Urdu on them, right? They are minor languages, and a system can be devised where certain districts or tehsils of a province where these languages are spoken can be taught. Its not that hard (it will create jobs for many teachers too), all it takes is the initiative, but I have observed that the Urdu natives are afraid of this change.

[abdelyuuki]

Yes, which is why we cant enforce Urdu on them, right? They are minor languages, and a system can be devised where certain districts or tehsils of a province where these languages are spoken can be taught. Its not that hard (it will create jobs for many teachers too), all it takes is the initiative, but I have observed that the Urdu natives are afraid of this change.

Not quite what I was thinking, but I guess your point is just as valid.

Urdu has pretty much been enforced though for over 60 years, so instead of going through a stage where 'provincial' languages be taught in minority areas, it would be better to stick to Urdu and the minority language of the area.

[Spock]

Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

^ Yes, and I am not devising we should pull out Urdu at all, its too late for that, you are right, but like you suggested, have the additional language of that area introduced as well.

[janab-e-ali]

@Spock

Janab being a Kashmiri seperatist, for once, post without your hatred for India, because you arent making any sense. India has done a fanstastic job of preserving its languages, and its about time we preserve our languages too. If you were Pakistani, I’d ask you are so scared about preserving these wonderful languages, but since you’re not theres no point. Also, we dont need any support from the Federal Govt for these languages in Pakistan.

What you just said is wrong, or maybe you didnt read properly when you posted that from wikipedia. Let me post the whole thing:

Article 343 of the Indian Constitution](Constitution of India - Wikipedia) recognises Hindi](Hindi - Wikipedia) in Devanāgarī](Devanagari - Wikipedia) script as the official language](Official language - Wikipedia) of the **Union Government](Government of India - Wikipedia). The states](States and union territories of India - Wikipedia) have their own official languages, depending on their linguistic demographics. For example, the state of Tamil Nadu](Tamil Nadu - Wikipedia) has Tamil](Tamil language - Wikipedia) as its sole official language, while the state of Jammu and Kashmir](Jammu and Kashmir - Wikipedia) has **Kashmiri](Kashmiri language - Wikipedia), Urdu](Urdu - Wikipedia) and Dogri](Dogra - Wikipedia) as its official languages.

I don’t need wikipedia to teach me what I already know.

The passage you posted doesn’t refute anything I said. Hindi is India’s only official language. The twenty two scheduled languages are not accorded the same status as Hindi at the federal level, nor does scheduled language status ensure any federal patronage. My original post was simply pointing out that the system you suggested earlier, with “at least six official languages” differs from the Indian system you seem to admire so much.

[Marjawa]

@wondergurl

Something tells me that urdu would have been slowly and surely eradicated in that scenario, like it is in India. Hindi has been shaped into a slang or 'tapori' language, while Urdu in Pakistan still retains its shaistagi. I have many Indian Muslim friends and their 'version' of urdu is completely different from mine, Muslims in India have somewhat combined the two to form a slang. Heavens forbid.

Actually, how has hindi evaporated in india? In fact, because of bollywood, hindi / urdu is popular in afghanistan and even getting in s. india [slowly] as well as some bangladeshi singers 'copy' bollywood in YOU GUESS WHAT Language?

[Marjawa]

In Kashmir, virtually every literate person, Muslim or otherwise, knows how to read Urdu script.

I don't know if there's any data on Urdu literacy, but I suppose we could roughly estimate it by multiplying the number of primary Urdu speakers by the Muslim literacy rate.

58 million Urdu speakers * 60% literate = 34.8 million literate primary Urdu speakers in India vs 11.5 million Urdu speakers * 54% literate = 6.2 million literate primary Urdu speakers in Pakistan

Urdu script is in decline since devnagri is actively promoted by non-muslims and as the indian muslims blame pakistani "mahajirs" of taking away the literate class and leaving the poor no good for nothing back in india!

[Marjawa]

@Spock

thejoke, you think theres rampant poverty in India, and you think its not there in Pakistan?

I will ignore the 'desperate' attempt to malign India, because the world knows where India stands today, and where Pakistan stands, the latter being termed as a failed state by almost everyone these days.

As for your request for solution! I already said so, rewind 60 years, make Urdu and English the official languages, whereas every state would have its own official language, especially East Pakistan. Unfortunately, due to some selfish motives, we failed to do that, and imposed a foriegn language to every one of them. Its too late too do what I suggest, but giving the provinces more provincial autonomy would be a wise thing to do now, as the necessary damage control.

bengali was the official language alongside urdu after 52 so you can quit harping that point!

If what you said is completely true then it [bengali allowed to be spoken] should've been in Mujib's SIX POINTS but MAGICALLY it wasn't!

Let me rephrase them for you:

These points were first shared on February 12 1966. the points are given below:

*1. The Constitution should provide for a Federation of Pakistan in the true sense on the basis of the Lahore Resolution and for a parliamentary form of government based on the supremacy of a directly elected legislature on the basis of universal adult franchise. *

*2. The Federal Government shall deal with only two subjects; Defense and Foreign Affairs. All residuary subjects will be vested in the federating states. *

*3. There should be either two separate, freely convertible currencies for the two Wings, or one currency with two separate reserve banks to prevent inter-Wing flight of capital. *

4. The power of taxation and revenue collection shall be vested in the federating units. The Federal Government will receive a share to meet its financial obligations.

*5. Economic disparities between the two Wings shall disappear through a series of economic, fiscal, and legal reforms. *

6. A militia or paramilitary force must be created in East Pakistan, which at present has no defense of it own

[janab-e-ali]

Urdu script is in decline since devnagri is actively promoted by non-muslims and as the indian muslims blame pakistani "mahajirs" of taking away the literate class and leaving the poor no good for nothing back in india!

So Indian Muslims as a group regard themselves as "poor and good for nothing" now that the literate classes have left for Pakistan?

[Marjawa]

Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

Hasn't that article been posted on this forum by an indian muslim about the oh-so-selfish indian muslims aka mahajirs aka the business educated elite of muslims who left the poor muslims of india without any capable leadership?

[janab-e-ali]

Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

I don't know what article you're referring to, but based on the opinions expressed by that individual, you've concluded that

1. Indian Muslims as a group regard themselves as "poor and good for nothing" especially in comparison to Pakistani Mohajirs.
2. As a result of their bitterness towards Mohajirs, they're now abandoning their ancestral language out of spite.

[Marjawa]

Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

^ I didn't say anything about spite but the fact that muslims are usually downtrodden and illiterate and it makes it hardly easier for them to promote urdu when devnagri script is so actively competing with the arabic script!

Samajh ai mirpuri uncle or is it aunty? :D

[janab-e-ali]

Re: Urdu Language Destroying Pakistan!

You initially said it was in decline not because illiterate Indian Muslims had a hard time promoting it, but because they "blame Pakistani Mohajirs" for their fate. Sounds like spite to me.

I'm not Mirpuri. I'm Kashmiri.