Re: Making Arabic our National Language
Why do you deny it if it is a fact? Be rational than sentimental.
Re: Making Arabic our National Language
Who’s speaking about alienating 400 million people? They do matter more than the 130 million non Hindi speakers, which is indicated by the fact that they movies still are Hindi movies. However, if there is a way to capture both audiences, by having the movies in salees Hindi, it would make sound business sense to make it in that language.
Could you tell me where I made the first assertion?
You’re incorrect in suggesting that the Hindi is urdufied. They dont add any Urdu elements to it, which would further alienate the 130 million audience, they make it a watered down version of Hindi, removing harder Hindi words. The analog of that would be Punjabi lines in mainstream Pakistani plays being spoken not in a way a Punjabi would speak it at home, but in a slower, easier way non Punjabis would understand.
But then again you’re suggesting Punjabi is the same as Hindi too 
read above
The rest of your post regarding mainstream media is based on the assumption that Im saying they’ve Urdu-fied Hindi, whereas I made no such statement.
The quotes you’re selecting from random people can be countered by me selecting quotes from other random people :). Doesnt make too much difference.
What you havent been able to answer is that why is there such a degree of incomprehensibility for any Urdu speaker regarding Hindi where any form of media, whether print or broadcast, presents Hindi in its pure form, rather than what would be understandable to an audience that doesnt primarily speak Hindi. For instance, forget BBC altogether, even though your suggestion of them employing seperate broadcasts for political purposes is rather flimsy, forget Doordarshan, something that you never addressed, do you think literature written in Hindi is comprehensible to Urdu speakers? Do you suppose Faiz or Faraz would be comprehensible to a Hindi speaker?
The world beyond you my friend does consider the two languages to be very different. BBC Urdu and VOA Urdu are two examples, Google is another, you realise that each of these media sources addressed Urdu as a language to present themselves in before they used Pushto? I use Pushto as an example because you repeatedly use it to present your argument
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
The problem is the imposition of Urdu on the provinces of Pakistan. We ought to look at the way the Indians deal with their languages. It's simple and it works: three language formula (mother tongue + national language (Hindi) + English). We should do the same. Each province should have its own languages as official: Punjabi/Seraiki for Punjab, Sindhi and Urdu for Sindh, Balochi and Pashto for Balochistan, and Pashto for NWFP. Learning the national language Urdu should be compulsory at the secondary stage but it should not be imposed as a medium of instruction on all Pakistanis, regardless of their language.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
doesnt that already happen though? atleast in sindh, Sindhi is compulsory at the secondary stage.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
it should be extended to all provinces.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
i agree, no reason at all why it shouldnt
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
however, there must be a national language and that can only be Urdu. all these people who support Farsi or Arabic don't even know how to speak it. just because Indians can understand you doesn't mean you should get rid of Urdu, which can serve as an effective link language, if people really implement it.
Re: Making Arabic our National Language
And this salees Hindi is exactly Urdu or colloquial Hindi (or low Hindi), comprehensible to 400 millions Hindi speakers as well as the rest of the audience and viewers. On the contrary, the Pure Hindi, you are talking about is called High Hindi, Modern Hindi, or New Hindi a highly Sanskritized version of Hindustani Hindus tried to make popular in the second half of 19th Century as a Hindu-identity marker. The Hindi-Urdu controversy was political in nature artificially maintained by Devanagri-Perso/Arabic script and few hundred Persian-Arabic and SansKrit words.
Ravage without any biase whoever have watched Hindi/Urdu films and programs and visited India, including myself, have observed that both versions are the two faces of the same coin.
The assertion that Hindi is a Hindu-identity marker is implicit in this argument. You should also read posts by TheNewWanaBe. She has expilicitly stated it.
Your argument implies that the words they use to make the language of the Hindi films and T.V. programs salees are also a part of the Hindi vocaublary. These words are popular/colloquial words used by the common masses, Muslamans and Hindus alike. (This is a sound business strategy) The resulting colloquial/popular language is something comprehended by all and having almost 100% similarity with Urdu. This language was common before Hidi-Urdu political controversy and in future will have a more profound homogeneizing effect on South-Asian population.
The analogy with Punjabizing Urdu doesn’t apply here. When they mix Punjabi words into Urdu, I don’t understand. I can discern what is Punjabi and what is Urdu.
I was comparing the language they speak in Hindi movies and T.V. channels with the Urdu I learnt in school and use to communicate with Urdu speakers. Both languages are the same in structure, vocabulary, and pronunciation apart from other language-aspects.
A simple question from you then!
What % of the language they speak in Hindi movies and T.V. channel programs can you match exactly with Urdu? This question is from other members also!
These are not random quotes, rather authentic references. You are trying to downplay their veracity by calling them random quotes.
Ravage, this pure and impure form is your own innovation/concoction. There haven’t been any such thing as Pure and Impure Hindi. Historically, there have been one classifications in usage; the New, High, or Modern Hindi that was created towards the end of 19th Century by Sanskritizing Hindustani; and the Low or Colloquial Hindi the folkloric and popular form of Hindi. For political reasons, they are using High Hindi on Dor Darshan but the popular media is using Colloquial Hindi that is indistinguishable from Urdu.
May be not in written form for the difference in script but in spoken form. Whom Sahir Ludhiniananvi wrote his songs for? When I hear his Hindi songs, I recognize their language as Urdu.
I have no special interest to consider both languages the same if they are not really the same. Please refer to the following quote from Dr. Tariq Rahman’s book “Language and Politics in Pakistan”, page 60, paragraph 2**.**
“According to linguists Hindi and Urdu are two styles of the same language…both have the same inflectional system and a common core of basic vocabulary; they differ in learned or abstract words and in the word order…”
Here the author has called it the two-styles not even two dialects.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
Oh geez. Urdu is way different that Hindi definitely. If Urdu is the same as Hindi, then it's like saying Pashto is the same as farsi =P
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
the fact that proper hindi and proper urdu are notably different is not a relevant explanation.
the vast majority of urdu and hindi speakers do not speak the "proper" forms of their respective languages. the blended commoner's language of hindustani is, for the most part, the same language on both sides of the border in each country's hindustani speaking regions.
naturally, news programs will use proper language.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
Yeah well obviously some people still can't tell the difference.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
Here is more material for you from the book "Language and Politics in Pakistan" by Dr. Tariq Rahman. On page 72, he writes:
"The British did not, however, maintain a consistently anti-Urdu or anti-Muslim policy. Sir J. D. Latouche, Maodomell's successor, wrote to Curzon, on 15 May 1902:
Sir Anthony Maodomell went too far in acknowledging Hindi as a language. There is no Hindi language but there are a number of Hidi dialects of which Urdu or Hindustani is the principal (Curzon Correspondence 1903)"
La Touche disapproved of the efforts of Hindu purists to create Hindi, which in his opinion, no Mohammadan and no Hindu except a Pundit understands"
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
I have this Indian friend who didn't know what Jumme raat was. So much for the Urdu=Hindi.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
Madam, read the following and develop the courage to accept the truth.
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The book titled " King, Christopher. One Language, Two Scripts: the Hindi Movement in Nineteenth Century North India. New Delhi: Oxford University Press,
1994 " -
The following comment by a Western observer (now don’t call this person an enemy of Islam and Pakistan; the guy has converted to Islam…" from the site: http://www.ishipress.com/wordlist.htm
“Hindi and Urdu are the same spoken language, but are written in
entirely different alphabets for religious and political reasons”…Ismail Sloan
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Now read this article “Persistence of Hindustani” link: http://www.urdustudies.com/pdf/20/09RaiHindustani.pdf
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Now have a look at the debate between two scholars, one Muslim and another Hindi, of Urdu-Hindi. http://www.urdustudies.com/pdf/20/12AminRai.pdf. An excerpt from this article with relevant portion highlighted in red is given for your perusal.
“s a : I quote you from page 113: “Because of its origins in a specific
regional politics the defence of ‘Hindustani’ had become identified with a
status quoist defence of privilege.” This is one of the reasons you
don’t want to use the term. But this Hindustani or this Urdu also produced a
Josh Malihabadi, also produced a Majaz, also produced a Kaifi Azmi. So
to say that language was rooted in a defense of privilege … I find that
troubling because it appears in a book which otherwise hits out against official
Hindi.”
This uttterance is by the Muslim scholar, Shahid Amin.
- Wanna learn Urdu-Hindi? Visit the site: http://users.tkk.fi/~jalam/urdulearningclub/index.htm
See below what do the owners of the above site say about the artificial difference of Urdu between Hindi in the index of the above site…have copied it for you with relevant portions highlighted. Please don’t call it a conspiracy against Islam and Pakistan.
“Urdu Learning Club is an informal group of friends learning to speak
Urdu/Hindi together in Helsinki, Finland. It got started as an idea
when people who know the language and their friends who want to know
the language, combined their interests. Although spoken Urdu and Hindi
are practically the same languge, they are written with different
alphabets. Because Urdu is used in most of Pakistan, and Hindi in some
parts of India, learning the spoken language enables communication in
both countries. See the map of India and Pakistan.”
- Now thiese are excerpts from authentic articles:
“Most linguists think of modern vernacular Hindi and Urdu as the same
language. They are both subsets of the dialects termed Hindustani, the
dialects descended from medieval Prakrits not written before the
Independence of India. The distinction of Hindi and Urdu as separate
languages is largely for reason of post-1947 politics, with Hindi
written in Devanagari, and drawing more vocabulary from Sanskrit, and
Urdu written in the Persian script and drawing more from Persian and
Arabic.”
“Hindi derives much of its formal and technical vocabulary from
Sanskrit. Standard or shuddha (“pure”) Hindi is used only in public
addresses and radio or TV news, while the everyday spoken language in
most areas is one of several varieties of Hindustani, whose vocabulary
includes words from Urdu. In addition, spoken Hindi uses words from
Portuguese, English and other languages as well.”
- Want to learn the Hindi translation of common English phrases? Visit http://www.wordanywhere.com/ . How much is it different from Urdu?
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
Now read the article: http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/oct2005-daily/07-10-2005/oped/o2.htm.
An excerpt from the article:
"It is all very confusing. It turns out that Hindi and Urdu are one and the same tongue that differs only in the upper reaches infiltrated by Persian and Sanskrit. As the scholar Afroj Taz (born District Etah, Uttar Pradesh, now teaching Southasian languages in North Carolina) says: “Hindi and Urdu, which share a common, identical grammatical structure, must be considered a single language: Hindi-Urdu.”
The fact that Urdu is in fact Hindi and vice-versa would be a matter of some discomfort to a few on either side of the LoC, but the very fact that Bollywood films are consumed voraciously in Pakistan proves the point. No one would claim that Pakistanis watch Bollywood blockbusters because they know Hindi. Ergo, they are listening to Hindi-Urdu as one and the same language. Which means that even though the Bombay producer and director thought they were making a film in Hindi, they are heard in Lahore as Urdu. When this Nepal-based writer goes to Lahore, he is ridiculed for his bad Urdu, and in Delhi for his atrocious Hindi. Or Hindustani.
In heavyweight gatherings of Southasian states, diplomats from Kathmandu, Dhaka, New Delhi and Islamabad alike are found succumbing to what is/has become the common jubaan of North Southasia, quoting Iqbal, Faiz and Shair Ludhianvi. Away from diplomatic decorum, they ascend to a language that is neither Hindu nor Urdu but an evolved medium of conversation carrying the heritage of the Indus Valley, Awadh, the Padma, Tipu Sultan and Dilip Kumar. Hindustani. "
Following is what may ultimately happen according to the above author:
"It is just possible that the need for a name for the joint language will be felt among the people once the India-Pakistan thaw accelerates, and the economic, social and cultural links between Northern India and Pakistan take firm root.
When the India-Pakistan frontier becomes truly ‘soft’, it is likely that Hindustani will emerge from smog of Subcontinental geopolitics and take its rightful place as the major tongue of Southasia. Except, let us pronounce it and spell it as the original “Hindostani”.
Re: Making Arabic our National Language
Dont worry about my bp, scrub. worry about the day when i pull out those buttons stuffed on your face.
Re: Making Arabic our National Language
fact? what is a fact? you want me to tell you?
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fact is that muslims and hindus are different.
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fact is that islam makes pakistanis different than hindus.
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fact is that pakistanis acquire a seperate land cz they knew they were different
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fact is that they knew they belonged to human race and could not live with animals.
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fact is that pakistan was acquired SOLELY on the basis of all these DIFFERENCES.
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fact is that no matter how you cry or die, you can never prove yourself to be anything close to pakisanis or pakistan.
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fact is the the religion of islam gives pakistanis a unique culture. a culture which is of their own. and is not donated by the idol worshipping society.
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the fact is that pakistanis cz of being muslims are generous, good looking and broadminded people and hygenic and indians are far from that.
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fact is that indians are living this dream of combining with pakistan and other countries in asia DESPERATELY in order to become the largest/the only country on the continent asia.
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fact is that this ugly dream of their will NEVER become true. i assure you that :k:
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fact is the indians suffer from a major inferiority complex and as i have always said and will repeat that they look for ways to be related/get close to pakistanis in anyway they can to ‘feel good’.
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fact is that the stimula working behind you typing post after post in this thread in a DESPERATE but UNSUCCESSFUL attempt of proving that you are close to us is the same as fact # 12.
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the fact is we are stunned with the desperation you have shown (only to prove your invalid point) but it will NEVER work.
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the fact is that i remember you are the same ah who posted some sick comments about pakistan in the thread about trade between india and pakistan. but now here in this thread you are striving hard to come across as a debator coping and pasting sh!t from other places.
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the fact is you will always remain ugly and your looks will never change no matter how you try to prove you are same as pakistanis.
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fact is that our culture will always be DIFFERENT than yours bcz of the uniqueness it has acquired cz of islam.
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the fact is that your way of posting in desperation is only turning out to prove my point.
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the fact is that we are in EVERY WAY DIFFERENT than you.
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the fact is that urdu is a decent language of the EDUCATED masses and CAN NEVER come anywhere close to hindi (THE STREET LANGUAGE)
need more facts? do let me know. i’ll stuff you with more.
now GET OVER with your dreams of comparing yourself and what belongs to you with us pakistanis and what belongs to US.
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
we have all noticed your desperation, lil one of scrub. go get your medicine, you’ll feel better. stop wasting your 4 drops of blood proving this invalid point. it will not work on us. go go, get some fresh air. you’ll feel better being an indian and will stop trying to be related with us.
ssssshhhhhooooo
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
TheNewWannabe,
seeing as how the holy month of Ramadan is upon us, it would be appropriate for you to at least attempt to cleanse yourself of this hatred. after reading your above post, it is apparent that you have very serious issues with India/Indians, and there is no way this can be healthy for you.
with love,
nikhil
Re: Urdu is the same as Hindi [SPLIT FROM: Making Arabic our National Language]
TNWB grow up... Ab tum paanch saal ki bachi nahein rahi, pachaas saal ki boorri ho.
If you've anything substantial to add to the discussion please do so in a mature way, don't throw a tantrum like a crybaby because you're wrong and we're right.
Religion is the only difference between eastern Pakistan and northern India, if Pakistanis are loyal to Islam then Pakistan is justified but otherwise no, it is completely idiotic when secular minded yet patriotic Pakistanis try justifying Pakistan's existence with absurd reasons and try forging a separate heritage or culture from India because the rest of the world won’t have any of it.