Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
^ bhai we can not change what they beleive , just show respect for the majority.
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
I know what you are saying but this is again a bandaid approach, they will keep quiet for sometime as long as it suits them and when given a chance they will show their true colors.This is what has happened throughout most of our history.This also perpetuates this siege mentality of shia communities who are minorities.
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Agreed with the bolded part except the fact that we dont abuse /crticise ahl e bayt
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yaar laikan thats the problem , to shias ears the praise of umar /abubakr is the equivalent of hostility to ali and his family.As in their view sahaba did such and such to ali's family.So sunnis DONT HAVE TO CRTICIZE ANYONE to offend shias, thats why shias so greatly praise abu lulu majoosi.So this tit for tat never ends, Its not sunnis problem is shias are offended by their praise of shaykhan or other sahaba but im trying to make u see both sides of the story.So sunnis obviously will not stop praising shaykhan as why shud they if shias have a problem with it its their issue likewise shias think why shud they stop criticizing them if sunnis have a problem let them keep their opinions to themselves.Paksitan is a unique case shias despite being a minority but were very influential esp in early pakistani history so the culture of pakistan was naturally more inclined towards shias ( long rememberence of muhaarram and a larger than life image of ali is fairly common in pakistan even in many sunni families) against this backdrop the tabarra was particularly hurtful to sunnis since they feel they already go out of their way to praise ali and his family yet only get more hostility from certain shias.
reminds me of a incident , when shia sunni riots occured in Lucknow my dada used to say that hindu soldiers stationed to police jaloos in muharram used to ask them "Yaar yah do susray koin hain jin ko aacha kaho tu bhi log naraz hotai hain aur bura bolo tu bhi log naraz hotay hain"
Bottomline is there will never be any unity or even a genuine attempt at such without some fundamental changes in the established beliefs of both sects
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
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khawarij used to curse ali but he never declared them kaffir !
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afaik there is takfir on the khawarij from the Prophet SAW including an order to kill. if not the whole group, atleast Ali RA spent time looking for the leader, admist the dead bodies to confirm he had got him
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
^ Yes ONLY that group there is no blanket license to kill all "khawarij" only the hadith of Dhul Thadiya , man with the arm like a woman's breast he and his group was killed in Nahrawan.
iN LATER times all groups of religious reformers who rose up against tyrants were termed "khawarij" this is a classic example of abuse of hadith
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
^afaik there was permission (to kill) through multiple shariah routes, at Ali RA's discretion
the 'likeness' of khawarij is used, i cant confirm or deny its abuse in history but i think i have seen it abused in current time. i say think because it is open to debate whether they were right or i was.
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
^afaik there was permission (to kill) through multiple shariah routes, at Ali RA's discretion
the 'likeness' of khawarij is used, and i agree it has been abused. i think i have seen it abused in current time. i say think because it is open to debate whether they were right or i was.
yes bro but thats becuse those khawarij stubbornly refused to stop killing companions of ali
before ali used the sword on them he sent akabir sahaba first to them abdullah ibn abbas , Qays b sa'd and finally abu ayyub ansari and out of 12000 khawarij , 8000 returned back to army of ali and only 4000 actually perished in nahrawan.So this was an EXTREME measure taken against a group that rebelled against such big sahaba.
Are there any abu ayyubs, ibn abbas or ali ruling over muslim countries today or people like them or even close ? so how can people who rebel against them can be like those khawarij
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
i agree with you das regarding current time, but using the characteristics of khawarij, it is still possible for a group to take positions similar to them and transgress. we need to make a call on their islam to differentiate
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
^ indeed some groups go way overboad but its a 2 way street when rulers exceed their limits in corruption while wont the opposition exceed the limit in self righteous piety ?
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You want us to change and are not willing to change what is offensive for us? all i am asking is if this public abuses is stopped, things will clam down.
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No i said it is a two way thing.
I am happy for abuse and discrimination from both sides to be banned, providing the definition is clear. Shias as a minority are the bigger victims here so i think they would be more than happy with some sense of equality.
A so called 'lecturer' in based the uk; is known for openly and routinely abusing sunnis on his tv channel. He has some young followers; but he is widely disliked and ridiculed by most in our community and denounced by our scholars. In fact most believe he is implanted and paid by intelligence simply to cause fitna between shia/sunnis. We do not allow sectarian abuse to take place in our mosque be it on the mimbar or audience; or on our local tv stations; we have mixed faith panel programs in the different mosques..
So we are doing our part in dissociating from such extremists; and trying to promote unity. but are you doing your part in dissociating/ isolating with your own extremists??
If not; what exactly are you doing to promote unity within your own community? You are not just sitting there expecting others to do everything.... are you?
I dont want the ban being used as an excuse to prevent open discussion on historical aspects, just like the blasphemy law is being abused left right and centre, there is a chance that this will be used to shut down any discussion because all of a sudden any criticism is considered 'abuse'. As long as the definitions are clear. I dont have a problem.1
I dont believe that its that simple; that if abuse stopped things will automatically calm down. The saudi funded madressas are still being run on every out post and are churning out hostile and narrow minded youth daily; and that is the real problem. They are hell bent on 'purifying' the country and their attitude is at the very least intolerant; and at the most; they are qaatils.
Then there are other abuse and discrimination of minorities and other sects; all these need to be addressed before any sense of unity takes place.
My view is that the masses cannot be changed by us; all we can do is work as individuals or small groups to bring about change slowly. Even islam was spread from the prophet saw initially inviting his family and worked his way out from there. hence why i am talking about what we can do on a personal level as oppose to working on masses. The masses are not in our remit, so why are we talking as if they are? I think if we are serious; we need to be a bit more realistic!!
Finally; if masses are to be changed, then it will be solely through a neutral gov; and solely by providing education of a good standard to all children and adults even. I dont think thats impossible considering education and media is quite widespread in pakistan, even in remote places. Its just a case of providing the right type of education and of a high quality..to everyone regardless.
the takfir on the shia isnt emanating from me but i am re-iterating, and affirming myself, that they are kafirs. do you want to see the fatwas?
we can unite if they accept islam. its that simple, i have nothing against anyone born into the shia. were you born into the shia community?
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Last time I checked in constitution of pakistan shia were muslims, and I dont understand if fatwas are there proving kufr on them then y HARMAIN SHAREEFAIN and Saudia allow atleast 900,000 Shias to perform hajj. Kafir ka kiya kaam KHANA KAABA MAI.WO TO NAJS HAI.
Brother shardamnay my views are clear, if u hold the authority to declrae thrm kfr, they will think justified in doing the same.
P.S: I read LA ILLAHA ILLalAHO MOHAMMAD A R RASUL ALLAH.
Thats niether make me sunni or shia, I am a muslim.
@ shardamnay
If u cannot help in uniting us, dont help in dividing us.
OR ALLAH KI RASSI KO MAZBUTI SAY PAKRY RAHO OR APAS MAI TAFARKA NA PHAILAO
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
- No i said it is two way thing.
I am happy for abuse and discrimination from both sides to be banned, providing the definition is clear. Shias as a minority are the bigger victims.
I dont want the ban being used as an excuse to prevent open discussion on historical aspects, just like the blasphemy law is being abused left right and centre, there is a chance that this will be used to shut down any discussion because all of a sudden any criticism is considered 'abuse'. As long as the definitions are clear.
2- Please tell us how we abuse and disicriminate? Shias have more rights in pakistan then elsewhere compare this with sunnis in iran. At present our president,CM sindh and if i remember correctly commisioner and city administrator of karachi are shias. this is just example, i can share many more names.
Plus when one momin enters in an organisation at a prominent position, then the hiring of shias grows many fold. I can see this at my organizatiion, others can share thier experiance as well.
Here you have more then propotionate share :) Had to reply this as you mentioned this. Not willing to further discuss this in this thread.
4- No one is stopping open discussion, but is the quoted book of najfi a good example of how things are discussed? You never commented on that.
- I dont believe that its that simple; that if abuse stopped things will automatically calm down. The saudi funded madressas are still being run on every out post and are churning out hostile and narrow minded youth daily; and that is the real problem. They are hell bent on 'purifying' the country and their attitude is at the very least intolerant; and at the most; they are qaatils.
You missed mentioning irani funded hawzas,madressa by mistake , did you?
Need your feedback on procession thread as well. :)
United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
Re read my post; esp my third point. I missed it out earlier.
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
PLease dont start this again, so basicaly you just dont want to stop this abuse and is not willing to understand our POV. See it is not that we want you people to change what you beleive(despite how hollow they are), just respect sentiments of majority.
if u have a POV then I wud like to c it......in all honesty, u might have written heaps in this thread but have not contributed much in terms of objectivity at all........
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
Re read my post; esp my third point. I missed it out earlier.
A so called 'lecturer' in based the uk; is known for openly and routinely abusing sunnis on his tv channel. He has some young followers; but he is widely disliked and ridiculed by most in our community and denounced by our scholars. In fact most believe he is implanted and paid by intelligence simply to cause fitna between shia/sunnis. We do not allow sectarian abuse to take place in our mosque be it on the mimbar or audience; or on our local tv stations; we have mixed faith panel programs in the different mosques..
So we are doing our part in dissociating from such extremists; and trying to promote unity. but are you doing your part in dissociating/ isolating with your own extremists??
I believe that was updated after my post right. :)
Whilst most of shias support Tehreek Nifaz e Fiqah jafriya/Sipah e Muhammad/ISO type terrorist organisations most sunnis do not support SSP stance over killing shias or making takfir like this.
I do not subscribe thier idea either rather whole tablighi jamaat /barelvi/khatam e nabuwat people do not support this idea of killing shias.
if u have a POV then I wud like to c it......in all honesty, u might have written heaps in this thread but have not contributed much in terms of objectivity at all........
It is already there, lets not drag this into a meaningless(i must win this debate) kind of situation. I will only contribute if needed. All is written already, leave it for readers to judge POV of either side.
PS: Any comments on scans i posted?
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
Bao Bihari, seeing u as contributor in audio.section earlier, if u want a real discussion then I am willing to audio discuss this on audio section.....there is clearly a communication gap here that is rather annoying and a waste of time.....this discussion cud end in 5 minutes in audio, insha Allah....
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
^ 100 bismillah, if inshallah it can lead us any where.
Post it at your blog.
Need your comment on scans here. :)
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
Muslims vs Shias - [English] - Haq Char Yaar ::: Islamic Discussion Forum
for any discussions that you want to discuss thoroughly
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
^ 100 bismillah, if inshallah it can lead us any where.
Post it at your blog.
Need your comment on scans here. :)
okay...
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
Peace All,
I see lot of pplz r agreeing with others. 
btw out of curiosty i would like to ask a question. Someone said earlier 'Utham r.a. killed by forefather of ‘Shia’. So simple question and expecting simple answer 
1- How ‘forefather’ of Shias were actually ‘Shia’?
2- How Hazrat Utham r.a. was ‘Sunni’, if so?
