I meant regardless. Stupid auto correct.
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
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2. I dont know how I am saying thid but I believe that if shias stop abusing MOTHERS AND SAHABAS of SUNNIS and sunnis and wahabis stop saying SHIA KAFIR, 90 % of clashes btw sunni shia wahabi can END
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its not fair to expect that from either side
on one hand we are strongly advised not to corrupt our faith with ahlul bida on the other they are preached that heroes of the oppositte sect perpetuated untold atrocities on family of the Prophet.SOmething fundamental has to change otherwise thoughts of unity are just pious delusions.
@ Popat:
Quran always say .....Allah ki rassi ko mazbuti say pakray raho or Tfarkay mai na paro....
Onr interpertation of the last line can be that dont put ur energies to find ways in which we are not one....Always try to strentghen the bond within muslims...
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
P.s: Cant we understand, we are born with a particular sect and our life and death I s dependent on it.How come we can chnge.....those times are over when ppl convert frm one sect to other....now it only happens for mony or other material things....plz KISI KA AQEEDA CHAIRO NAHE OR APNA AQEEDA CHORO NAHE...AND RESPECT OTHERS SECT PLZ
with all due respect and i know u probably said that with good intention but
Thats a primitive tribal approach and a BIG INSULT to intellect of people who do
@ Das,Rich
Why cant u decide what is the best in the scenerio of Pak?...
what I am putting forward is not delusion my brother...When u live a diversified society u have to create space for others then others will do the same....remember u are not alone living in a society.
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
^ in scenario of pakistan yes I do agree your approach is better but not broadly speaking
with all due respect and i know u probably said that with good intention but
Thats a primitive tribal approach and a BIG INSULT to intellect to people who do
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I am sorry but my intentions were pure and good and I didnt mean that.
Congratulation my brothers
This is your first step…
Think positive be Positive
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
But bro its a temporary compromise not a long lasting solution.Its only dictated by the ground realities
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
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If you really love Hazrat Ali/shabis follow their teaching stop following ur mind and stupid thoughts. What other people say about them is their faith surely they will be answering Allah one day for every single world
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Yes whats equally important is that sahaba ahlulbayt wives were HUMANs they are good role models but we should not try to defend ALL of their actions depsite their obvious mistakes.Its when we start defending their mistakes then deen ka bhaira gharaq hota hai
This goes to both shias and sunnis, sunnis say "yes they did mistakes but we KNOW they all had good intentions" shias say " they are purified in Quran how can they make mistakes " so u see how thse little embers can start a huge fire ?
Shaqsiyat parasti nay deen to barbad kiya hai
why cant we say yes this action mr XYZ did was wrong ( per so and so's view) and we can only HOPE he did it with good intentions but we dont know and we leave his judgement to God.People can criticize or defend XYZ for it , it does not affect my faith.Its a purely academic debate of sources.
this is not unity , rather this is an alliance of convenience if i believe that someone who curses Mr XYZ or loves enemies of Mr ABC is not a true muslim and not on the path of "true religion" then how possibly can I consider him better than a nonmuslim.Enemy of enemy is my freind might be a good political startegy but its not the way to create unity in Ummah
and btw congratulations on completing hajj
Thanks!
At this point in time; in order to forge a sense of unity; even an alliance of convenience is a good start esp when you consider the alternatives!!
There is no need to delve into history or lay down conditions. Let me give you some real life examples; i have sunni friends and we have had no such issues.
Now i know what they believe in, and they know what i believe in; and they are the religious type. But we see beyond the differences; and bond not only on our similarities in our beliefs of which there are plenty but mainly on our personalities! that is a bigger pull than anything else.
Nobody lays down conditions that you have to accept this this and this before i become your friend. You just accept the different views. We do discuss similarities and differences and why its that way, but its with the intention to learn and understand as oppose to debate and convince that i am right and you are wrong!
whenever some one realises i am shia; i know they will ask the usual questions; i.e why do you beat yourselves; do you believe imam ali should be prophet, why do you hate the sahabas etc etc and so on. And i will patiently clarify/ explain things for them, even though some off the questions/idea are naturally offensive and ignorant. You simply dont make an issue out of it!!
We each know that what we believe is right and the other has their own reasons for their beliefs. Its not something that worries us!! Everyone is responsible for themselves.
So the point is; it is the attitude i am talking about; if you have the right one then anything is possible.
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
^ Salam
I have very good atheist jewish and christian friends too here I dont mean who we personally get along with but more the shia and sunni as communities as a whole.The attitude you are describing cannot be achieved by the masses unfortunately but only by the educated elite, this is not because of any lack of intelligence on the part of masses but simply because religion in our society is our identity and someone who criticizes that is seen as an attack on our identity.Its not fair to an average person who has quite limited religious knowledge and no time or money to pursue more to understand these finer points.It takes a lot of "aala zarf " to look beyond that most people simply will not develop that ...ever
Regarding an alliance of convenience we have had that several times in our history but it always falls apart and the consequences of that is even more hatred, so whats the point.Zaroorat mein tu Ghaday ko bhi paab bana laitay hain ...tu sunni aur shia tu phir bhai bhai hain ( atleast in theory)
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
There are DEEP mistrusts on both sides as communities, sunnis think shias are ALWAYS the fifth column and will talk about unity when they are having it rough but will not hesitate to collaborate with nonmuslims when its favorable to them, there is SOME truth in it but its also not always true and an over generalization.
Shias think sunnis dont really believe that shias are muslim and have a long h/o oppressing shias throughout history , again some truth in it but its also overlooked that shias when in majority have not hesistated to do the same.So both sides should be willing to listen to other arguments and willing to admit mistakes they made in the past.No process of recouncilation starts without confronting reality.
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
Our deen is the best and complete. Our prophet is the best and the master of all prophets. Our holy book is a book that has no doubt in it whatsoever. Our ummah is the greatest. Why is it that despite having everything, we have different views on different things ? A kid goes to a shop and ask the shopkeeper whether he has sugar, suuji and oil.. the shopkeeper says that yes he does.. the kid says.. why dont you make a halwa then ? So my point is.. despite many many attempts of making one ummah. Muslim Ummah will always have different views on different matters and will always be calling eachother kafir. Do you know whats the solution for this ? You'll be surprised and many will not agree with me but i will leave it up to you to tell me what can we do so that everyone comes under one flag of Islam. Under one definition of everything said in Islam. Yes, we can tolerate eachother, but thats not the solution to coming under one flag of Islam. So, please guide me what Quran says about it ? Whats the Quran ruling when it tells us stories of past prophet's ummah when they had the same problems that Muslim ummah now is facing ?
[23:52] And verily this Brotherhood of yours is a single Brotherhood, and I am your Lord and Cherisher: therefore fear Me (and no other).
[23:53] But people have cut off their affair (of unity), between them, into sects: each party rejoices in that which is with itself.
Bani Israel cut themselves into groups despite all their respective messengers bringing them a single message.
[3:103] And hold fast, all together, by the rope which Allah (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren;..
The first principles of existence or coming together of Muslim Umma is highlted by Quran as love and brotherhood.
[5:14] From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment....
Forgetting a part of covenant with God results in animosity and hatred between the Christians.
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
^you failed to add this
Verily, those who divide their religion and break up into sects (all kinds of religious sects) , you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) have no concern in them in the least. Their affair is only with Allah, Who then will tell them what they used to do. 6:159
**
...Allah's favour on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren;..**
subhanAllah, is that what happened paglu?
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
@ SHARDAMNAY reply to first post. no shia MUJTAHID says that having good feelings for wahabi ot sunni is wrong.if u dont like shia prctices its ok, but they believe in what I mentioned in the definition of muslim.and REMEMBER DEFINITION WAS NOT OF SOME DICTIONARY,.ITS BY MUHAMMAD PBUH. respect them they will respect u.
P.s: I beg u all stop posting those material that only divide not unite Plz...
the takfir on the shia isnt emanating from me but i am re-iterating, and affirming myself, that they are kafirs. do you want to see the fatwas?
we can unite if they accept islam. its that simple, i have nothing against anyone born into the shia. were you born into the shia community?
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
No one is asking you people to change what you believe, that is between you and ALLAH, but what i am requesting (which it seems very difficult for some to understand) is to respect what majority of people in pakistan believe. Dont abuse them openly , this is all that is needed to live happily alongside each other.
The point is that in the interest of unity; is to look beyond this, to understand that both will have offensive views about each other that is not going to go away. Infact that is the reason they are different sects in the first place!!!
You need to open your mind a bit an see that it is a two way issue. But you have to rise above that just like the prophet saw and imam as. did. You are not a better muslims than them, so why not emulate their examples?
And please; as if it was that easy as you saying it to guarantee no abuse/ killings will take place! Honestly!!
Ps. Not every scholar/ mujtahid permits abuse. Nor do they do it in our mosque. So every case is different!! Think big!
You want us to change and are not willing to change what is offensive for us? all i am asking is if this public abuses is stopped, things will clam down.
Bao Bihari, these polemics r not as 1 sided as u think.........when u say Shia abuse "wives" of the Prophet then u basically just mean Bibi Aisha.......quoting a fact is not abusing.......abusing is plain wrong and will be what Muawiya institutionalized against Ali ibne Abi Talib where the later, despite no wrongdoings, was abused for a century ...........as for Aisha, she did lead army against caliph of her time........and tht resulted in 20,000 muslims (including sahaba) being killed in battle of Jamal alone.........we love the other wives and in fact get upset further when we read tht Aisha used to mock Bibi Khadija (sa) and kept on breaking injunctions after another which resulted in a lot of damage to Islamic society.........is there any Quranic immunity for these? does Quran not reprimands the wives of double chastisement if they do wrong?......... so it is better not to discuss this as I know tht u respect her and love her........and u r free to do so....after all she narrates like 1/3 of Sunni hadiths........ Such polarization of characters is no uncommon in other religions.........take Christianity where they highly revere Saint Paul and he is the central figure for them......but the fact is tht Saint Paul killed the successors of Isa (as) whom Prophet Isa had designated himself!!!
PLease dont start this again, so basicaly you just dont want to stop this abuse and is not willing to understand our POV. See it is not that we want you people to change what you beleive(despite how hollow they are), just respect sentiments of majority.
Abubakr, Aisha Ali and Fatima are but historical personalities what they did is with them and God, we can criticize them, extoll them praise them or curse them that should not make one a kafir.But this should be fair if shias are expecting sunnis to unite with them despite their incredibly hostile views of sahaba/wives shias should also be willing to tolerate criticism of fatima/ali etc from certain sunnis ( although that rarely happens).A muslim should not be judged by what views he hold of ANY historical personalities past or present.khawarij used to curse ali but he never declared them kaffir ! now imagine if a sunni curses ali ?? will any shias EVER unite with him or even consider him a muslim ? So how can they expect sunnis to overlook their harsh criticism of people sunnis hold in such high esteem, esp since 99% of sunnis also extol ali and his progeny greatly.
Agreed with the bolded part except the fact that we dont abuse /crticise ahl e bayt. Khawarij do and we place them in same category as shias.
root cause is imamate not tabarra which is the cause of division.A shia who believes in imamate of how can they not curse those who opposed such a central pillar of religion ( as they see it) can you really blame them for it ? they see shias who preach against tabarra as those who are trying to appease sunnis, this serves to only further reinforces their determination of cursing shaykhan and wives.
so what im trying to say the division now is VERY deeply rooted because concepts like imamate have become central pillars of shiaism and collective immunity from criticism of sahaba in sunni islam ( although this is not such a central tenent amongst sunnis as shias).
We are talking about root cause of hostility not the basic difference, which indeed is imamat. :)
Dont want to discuss this further
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
the takfir on the shia isnt emanating from me but i am re-iterating, and affirming myself, that they are kafirs. do you want to see the fatwas?
we can unite if they accept islam. its that simple, i have nothing against anyone born into the shia. were you born into the shia community?
We are discussing how to rmeove hostility , unity is not possible due to the core differences beteen the aqaidh. Which i believe every knowledgable knows.
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
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Agreed with the bolded part except the fact that we dont abuse /crticise ahl e bayt.
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Khawarij do and we place them in same category as shias.
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But thats the problem sunni is the compromise sect "dont ask dont tell policy" as your narrative of history is based on compromise with how the events occured.Shias are the party of protest the whole reason for their existence is a counter-narrative which does not agree with status quo.Khawarij are the same, so how can you expect them to agree with your thinking.
Re: United Muslims: Shia+Sunnis+Wahabis
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We are talking about root cause of hostility not the basic difference, which indeed is imamat. :)
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so refer to what i said earlier, as the concept of imamate evolved amongst sectarian shias the events of early islamic history came to be interpreted in a new light.With the emphasis now on Ali's supposed divine appointment the people who supposedly opposed it ( Shaykhan in 12ers view) are the worst possible humans so tell me how can we stop tabarra without effectively refuting Imamate.