what makes u think they arent?........take a look at this forum.......thousands of Muslims, both Shia and Sunni, come here.........but there is always odd 1 or 2 tht r out doing takfeer..........they r more often than not the not-so-bright 1s to put it mildly............in my view they do it to justify their own faith in this manner or perhaps they r consciously or subconsciously imitating somebody they have seen......
This 'tabarra' excuse tht u r bring out to justify SSP and the likes does not hold any weight..........in India, the home of deoband, is there no lover of sahaba to out to "avenge" their honor?..........what abt pre Zia times? was there no Shia-Sunnis around?...........bro, these r mere political games tht r played under clever blankets to fool and use the simple minded ppl..............if ppl r asked to come to streets in name of Maulana XYZ then nobody wud come to the streets..........so instead names with emotional affiliations r used............btw MURDER has no JUSTIFICATION......u need to understand that very well!
I have a fair idea abt what u r referring to when u say tabarra.........yes, I have seen the videos on the youtube too.........the ppl who do it r idiots and nobodies............plus does Quran not clearly say that one soul's burden is not anothers?.........so how can a single man's action hold others liable?......
on Syed Khomeini.....the reaction in Iran will be similar to what wud happen if same was done abt Qauid e Azam in Pakistan or Mahatama Gandhi in India.............having said tht there is no stopping critically analyzing any of these guys..........they might b national heros but they r not gods..........
I love my sect......but I also try to love ur right to love yours.......
The point being made here my fellows muslims is to look beyond the faults for a common larger purpose. If you get stuck at you stop first and then no you guys stop first, then you are back at square one again... Stuck at the first hurdle.
Look at the similarities to unite, and tolerate or minimise the differences, dismiss the ignorants who seek to creat hostilities on both sides and stop this ego thing that we are better muslims than everyone else; and they all need correcting. To each their own is the attitude we need to gain if we are to get anywhere!!
^point to note is tht in religious jurisprudence matters variation b/w fiqhe sadiq and 4 popular sunni fiqh is no more than 10%.......there is similar variation percentage b/w Sunni schools of fiqh themselves.......
Good luck.
Although the mod of religion section has already stated in another thread that different sects are 'enemies' of each other..
speak up stonecold, kkf, LKK. i would like to hear alternative prospectives, if any, and learn from them
Peace All,
(I'm quoting u both bcoz u added me in ur comments.) I would like to share something its upto u whether u guyz agree to disagree. Moreover I didn't means to offend anyone in anyway.
Few years ago I went to Pakistan for further studies and I got chances to interact with pplz (ordinary pplz just like us like me and you) belongs to different sects. What I found the common things in between these all that they think (including myself) that we are self-dependent but in fact (as I think) we are still dependent need guidance but we are not fully self-dependent. Take my example, I know about my religion but maybe 2%, less or Zero out of 100%. B'coz i'm still learning and need a proper guidance. So I listen the lectures, attend Islamic conferences, read Islamic history or whatever which will benefit me and increase my knowledge. But at the end I can't say i'm self-dependent now. Same thing goes with others too as far I think.
We put our believe in one person or in a group belongs to many persons in hope that we'll learn something which will benefit us and all others around us, but rather than we do some research by our own by highlighting both white and dark sides, we just believe in them that whatever he or she said is correct and 100% truth. By these reason we blame each others and always first highlight differences, bad deeds of others rather than highlighting common terms, good deeds which bring us closer to each others.
So I ask myself what do I see when I look at a Sunni, Shia, Wahabi, Hindu, Christian, Ahmadi, and others? Do they looks like terrorist, infidel, enemy, friend or what? I see them as a creation from one God who created both of us but in different races which doesn't matter in His sight. Here we all are victims of our own deception b'coz rather than learning we just depend on others and that was the point in my other thread title 'How to Judge'.
If we dont know the root cause of divide how can we unite?
If Mr ABC is abusing Mr XYZ mother, how can you expect him to think good of him unless he stops abusing his mother openly.Why it is so difficult to understand?
To me solution is simple , show respect and take respect.
Because you cant stop xyz from abusing anyone as much as you can stop abc from calling people kaffir and labelling them wajib e qatl. The point here is if you as an individual genuinely want to unite; you will have to ignore the negative; and reach out to the other person in the hope that the other person will respond positively.
Two examples i can give; 1) the jewish lady who daily threw rubbish on the prophet saw; he didnt hold that against her; when she became ill he went to ask how she was. He reached out to her despite her behaviour, and she responded by converting to Islam.
Two; a christian approached Imam muhammad baqir as; and abused his mother. The Imams only response was raising his hands in dua and said; O Allah, if what this man is saying is true, then please forgive my mother, and if what he is saying is incorrect, then please forgive this man.
The christian felt ashamed and apologised for his behaviour there and then.
The idea taught in islam is to always take the bigger approach as opposed to being petty and vengeful. Reach out to them with kindness and humility. Not everyone will respond in kind, but some eventually will, and that is the basis for bringing people together. The onus is equally on you as much as the other person.
If you are going to wait until the day everyone decides to be civil; before you propose to unite; then you will be waiting forever; because not everyone is willing or able to change; nor will they be as openminded and understanding to your efforts; so you will have to work with what you have got and be glad for the small change for that you helped bring about.
The rest, even the Prophet (saw) couldn't change!! The reverts were small in number initially and then grew gradually. No one could have imagined how far and wide those efforts have reached today.
If tabbarra was sole acts of some individuals then this would not have matterd to us sunni muslims.
But if this is some ones religious believes and they are VOCAL about it, then this is some thing different.
See this for example
^ This is ghulam hussain najfi., late principal of jamia al muntazir(one of biggest and most imprtant shia madressa in pakistan) http://jamiatulmuntazar.com
Boa bahari; your are still not getting it. Both sides will have beliefs from their scholars and books that are offensive to the other. If you are going to point a finger at them; they will have twice as many accusations against you. And it will just carry on and we'll get nowhere.
The point is that in the interest of unity; is to look beyond this, to understand that both will have offensive views about each other that is not going to go away. Infact that is the reason they are different sects in the first place!!!
You need to open your mind a bit an see that it is a two way issue. But you have to rise above that just like the prophet saw and imam as. did. You are not a better muslims than them, so why not emulate their examples?
And please; as if it was that easy as you saying it to guarantee no abuse/ killings will take place! Honestly!!
Ps. Not every scholar/ mujtahid permits abuse. Nor do they do it in our mosque. So every case is different!! Think big!
shia sunni both are highly inflammable, u dont need to work hard to start a fight, just name them and it will start. In this shia sunni fight people only focus on people. They forget Allah.
Think about it, Hazrat Ali was in a war and he made his opponent fall down. Before he can kill his opponent, the man spit on Hazrat Ali's face. Then, Hazrat Ali withdrew his sword and did not kill the man. The man asked the reason for not being killed. "I was fighting against you for a just cause, we are in a war and I am fighting for the will of Allah. But when you spit on my face, I got angry, I can not kill you for my self (nafs), I am not a murderer" was his reply.
So shia sunni people for what and for who you fight
If you really love Hazrat Ali/shabis follow their teaching stop following ur mind and stupid thoughts. What other people say about them is their faith surely they will be answering Allah one day for every single world. Instead of fighting we must pray to Allah to give us guidance and should ignore the ignorant.
Bao Bihari, these polemics r not as 1 sided as u think.........when u say Shia abuse "wives" of the Prophet then u basically just mean Bibi Aisha.......quoting a fact is not abusing.......abusing is plain wrong and will be what Muawiya institutionalized against Ali ibne Abi Talib where the later, despite no wrongdoings, was abused for a century ...........as for Aisha, she did lead army against caliph of her time........and tht resulted in 20,000 muslims (including sahaba) being killed in battle of Jamal alone.........we love the other wives and in fact get upset further when we read tht Aisha used to mock Bibi Khadija (sa) and kept on breaking injunctions after another which resulted in a lot of damage to Islamic society.........is there any Quranic immunity for these? does Quran not reprimands the wives of double chastisement if they do wrong?......... so it is better not to discuss this as I know tht u respect her and love her........and u r free to do so....after all she narrates like 1/3 of Sunni hadiths........
Such polarization of characters is no uncommon in other religions.........take Christianity where they highly revere Saint Paul and he is the central figure for them......but the fact is tht Saint Paul killed the successors of Isa (as) whom Prophet Isa had designated himself!!!
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If Mr ABC is abusing Mr XYZ mother, how can you expect him to think good of him unless he stops abusing his mother openly.Why it is so difficult to understand
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meray paraay bhai what if I say ...please dont praise Mr QRS as he used to curse Mr ABC ( who we think is such a great person) ?
Such a debate is endless and no point in indulging in it
Abubakr, Aisha Ali and Fatima are but historical personalities what they did is with them and God, we can criticize them, extoll them praise them or curse them that should not make one a kafir.But this should be fair if shias are expecting sunnis to unite with them despite their incredibly hostile views of sahaba/wives shias should also be willing to tolerate criticism of fatima/ali etc from certain sunnis ( although that rarely happens).A muslim should not be judged by what views he hold of ANY historical personalities past or present.khawarij used to curse ali but he never declared them kaffir ! now imagine if a sunni curses ali ?? will any shias EVER unite with him or even consider him a muslim ? So how can they expect sunnis to overlook their harsh criticism of people sunnis hold in such high esteem, esp since 99% of sunnis also extol ali and his progeny greatly.
problems is these larger than life personalities have become more important than the religion itself, both sunnis and shias will harp about unity when it suits its their need but the reality is the well established and hardened views each have of other precludes any meaningful compromise
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If we dont know the root cause of divide how can we unite?
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root cause is imamate not tabarra which is the cause of division.A shia who believes in imamate of how can they not curse those who opposed such a central pillar of religion ( as they see it) can you really blame them for it ? they see shias who preach against tabarra as those who are trying to appease sunnis, this serves to only further reinforces their determination of cursing shaykhan and wives.
so what im trying to say the division now is VERY deeply rooted because concepts like imamate have become central pillars of shiaism and collective immunity from criticism of sahaba in sunni islam ( although this is not such a central tenent amongst sunnis as shias).
Bao Bihari, these polemics r not as 1 sided as u think.........when u say Shia abuse "wives" of the Prophet then u basically just mean Bibi Aisha.......quoting a fact is not abusing.......abusing is plain wrong and will be what Muawiya institutionalized against Ali ibne Abi Talib where the later, despite no wrongdoings, was abused for a century ...........as for Aisha, she did lead army against caliph of her time........and tht resulted in 20,000 muslims (including sahaba) being killed in battle of Jamal alone.........we love the other wives and in fact get upset further when we read tht Aisha used to mock Bibi Khadija (sa) and kept on breaking injunctions after another which resulted in a lot of damage to Islamic society.........is there any Quranic immunity for these? does Quran not reprimands the wives of double chastisement if they do wrong?......... so it is better not to discuss this as I know tht u respect her and love her........and u r free to do so....after all she narrates like 1/3 of Sunni hadiths........
Such polarization of characters is no uncommon in other religions.........take Christianity where they highly revere Saint Paul and he is the central figure for them......but the fact is tht Saint Paul killed the successors of Isa (as) whom Prophet Isa had designated himself!!!
but sunnis wud say ...aisha was just asking justice for uthman's killers
uthman was killed by forefathers of shias
You know the usual arguments on both sides I'm sure, whats the point of a HISTORICAL debate when we cant even agree on the same sources.
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The point is that in the interest of unity; is to look beyond this, to understand that both will have offensive views about each other that is not going to go away. Infact that is the reason they are different sects in the first place!!!
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this is not unity , rather this is an alliance of convenience
if i believe that someone who curses Mr XYZ or loves enemies of Mr ABC is not a true muslim and not on the path of "true religion" then how possibly can I consider him better than a nonmuslim.Enemy of enemy is my freind might be a good political startegy but its not the way to create unity in Ummah
but sunnis wud say ...aisha was just asking justice for uthman's killers
uthman was killed by forefathers of shias
You know the usual arguments on both sides I'm sure, whats the point of a HISTORICAL debate when we cant even agree on the same sources.
and I am sure u know too the weak legs this argument stands on.........marwan's words upon killing talha (leader of his own army) r sufficient to show the dodgy intentions of those who came to fight Imam Ali............
Debates r useless, it is really not tht difficult to c...........instead we cud discuss things and try to benefit from talking to ppl who might have different take on things rather than unsheathing the sword, declaring takfeer, and jumping on the other person, trying to ride them all the way to "hell".........
and I am sure u know too the weak legs this argument stands on.........marwan's words upon killing talha (leader of his own army) r sufficient to show the dodgy intentions of those who came to fight Imam Ali............
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I know, but again who will decide the authenticity of sources ? both sunnis and shias will naturally prefer those narrations that support their official stance.There are narrations in sunni and shia leaning books which can go in favor of the present views of both sunnis and shias.As the present day views sunnis/shias have gradually EVOLVED over centuries its not like overnight after Prophet 2 DISTINCT theological sects existed
I thank u all who showed their well wishes anf atleast showed their concern.( Katra Katra samandar banta hai)....
I am junior of u all ppl here in terms of usaing this forum therefore I dont know many of you and ur views but I did read all aforsaid replies..
Two things were clear...
20 % are ready to be with unity and tolerance right away without thinking and this is what I need...if you think this goal is good for muslims just start following it and Allah will help u.
80% showed some difficulties and thus again indulge in EVER LASTING fight about who is righy who is wrong. (bhai ye kam 1400 saal say ho raha hai without any positive result..) So y not do something thay never tried before.
I want to clear 2 points which can be helpful for those who always give examples from past in proving their sect.
There is no big difference in basics of any sect, Namaz Roza Hajj Zakat Last prophet judgment day, (tarekay dif hai na but niyat to SUB ki aik hai.... KURBATAN ILL ALLAH) so be unite on being a MUSLIM.
I dont know how I am saying thid but I believe that if shias stop abusing MOTHERS AND SAHABAS of SUNNIS and sunnis and wahabis stop saying SHIA KAFIR, 90 % of clashes btw sunni shia wahabi can END.
@ SHARDAMNAY reply to first post.
no shia MUJTAHID says that having good feelings for wahabi ot sunni is wrong.if u dont like shia prctices its ok, but they believe in what I mentioned in the definition of muslim.and REMEMBER DEFINITION WAS NOT OF SOME DICTIONARY,.ITS BY MUHAMMAD PBUH. respect them they will respect u.
P.s: I beg u all stop posting those material that only divide not unite Plz...
I know, but again who will decide the authenticity of sources ? both sunnis and shias will naturally prefer those narrations that support their official stance
research everything, be honest to urself, ask God for His guidance......there is nothing more a weak, fallible, and limited human can do........after tht to each their own.......just like we will be in our graves, and later in Mehshar......
Our deen is the best and complete. Our prophet is the best and the master of all prophets. Our holy book is a book that has no doubt in it whatsoever. Our ummah is the greatest. Why is it that despite having everything, we have different views on different things ? A kid goes to a shop and ask the shopkeeper whether he has sugar, suuji and oil.. the shopkeeper says that yes he does.. the kid says.. why dont you make a halwa then ? So my point is.. despite many many attempts of making one ummah. Muslim Ummah will always have different views on different matters and will always be calling eachother kafir. Do you know whats the solution for this ? You'll be surprised and many will not agree with me but i will leave it up to you to tell me what can we do so that everyone comes under one flag of Islam. Under one definition of everything said in Islam. Yes, we can tolerate eachother, but thats not the solution to coming under one flag of Islam. So, please guide me what Quran says about it ? Whats the Quran ruling when it tells us stories of past prophet's ummah when they had the same problems that Muslim ummah now is facing ?
We can find and post here things on which we all agree rather than wasting energy in finding that material on which other sect will never agree.
P.s: Cant we understand, we are born with a particular sect and our life and death I s dependent on it.How come we can chnge.....those times are over when ppl convert frm one sect to other....now it only happens for mony or other material things....plz KISI KA AQEEDA CHAIRO NAHE OR APNA AQEEDA CHORO NAHE...AND RESPECT OTHERS SECT PLZ
