Understanding Islaam and Muslims

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Mamaof3,

Welcome to Gupshup.

Let me address some of what you are hearing here.

You have come here for facts, and to confront the perceptions you have about Mulsims. That is my purpose too. Some of the things you will commonly find here on Gupshup are:

1) Sharon made us do it. Like an all encompassing devil, he is the cause of all evil in the world. This is often used as a substitute for directly confronting problems that are well with in the control of Muslims and their countries.

2) The US is the cause of all evil. See above. Used to rationalize behavior, and deflect blame.

3) We Muslims are not like that. This fails to address the problem, which is that the PERCEPTION is that every Muslim is a terrorist. Now anyone with common sense knows this is not true, but Muslims fail to acknowledge the very real fear that some people have of terrorist attacks. To my way of thinking, the Islamic world has no idea of the long term damage that is being done by failing to effectively address very real perceptions.

4) What do you want me to do about it? Certainly one individual cannot confront the radical elements. On the other hand, Muslims discuss world unity of thier religion. Contradictory eh? The answer of course is that rational voices must become louder to drown out the hate within the religion.

5) It's all a conspiracy. Conspiracies are often used to deny responsibility.

6) Our jihad is noble, and essential to our religion. Certainly the physical and emotional and spiritual struggles are worth pursuing. The reality is that there are battles breaking out all over the world justified by jihad, and that some of this chaos is noble, and much is just hate wrapped in religion.

7) You are terrorists too! US militias, right wingers, and moral gaps are often used to deflect the arguement, as if two wrongs make a right. More denial.

In short you are asking questions about why there is turmoil in the Islamic world, and why it has come knocking at your door. The answer is like peeling an onion. You have to fight through layers of denial, deflection, self-deception, and anger to get to answers to your question. I suppose we are all defensive about our flaws, but the Muslim defenses are elaborate and hard to penetrate. Look carefully for moments of candor, passion, self-introspection, self-criticism, and positive thinking. These moments are fleeting and few here on Gupshup, but enjoyable when they happen. Obviously we Americans have much to learn about our country, our behavior, and how it is viewed by others. These issues cut both ways.

Welcome to the discussion.

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  1. Ohioguy is the official tea boy and shouldn’t really get ideas above his station.

Let’s see, to fully understand Islam and Muslims we have to fully understand why we want to understand fully?

I’m on your side, some of my best friends are ignorant :bummer: so I can’t be biased and considered aligned to any particular group, ignorant, informed it’s all good.

OG I think you have generalised enough old man now back in your hole.

“but the Muslim defenses are elaborate and hard to penetrate”

“The Christian-Zionists like hot buttered muffins”

spot the difference :hehe:

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but the Muslim defenses are elaborate and hard to penetrate"

"The Christian-Zionists like hot buttered muffins"

Both appear to be true! Long as they are not those rocks the Brit spread jam on.

From here out I will present the "Ohioguy Orientation of Naive Westerners to Gupshup" to all who have not experienced the majesty and wonder of the debate here. My experience in understanding Muslims is somehat similar to herding cats..... :)

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The question remains.........!!!!

Why, why do Christian-Zionists like hot buttered muffins!!!!

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Another racist generalization, as well as profiling!

I blame the ISI, Hamas, Al-Qaedda and Chechan rebels for the effects of heart disease caused by butter.

Gee, this stuff is easy...

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I think I'll 'clarify' your last comment and conclude it's 'ghee' that is in fact the easy route to a heart attack, that and all them layers of the onion.

I feel hungry.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mamaof3: *
Thank you all for your replies. Just a couple of things I'd like to add -

To Ms. Muslim Queen, I think you misunderstood about the "judge and jury" bit. It was not my intention to tell anyone how to live. But rather to think about more constructive ways to resolve "muslim issues" and I was asking the "hardliners" to comment on this. I was not trying to say that Muslims should "be like" Jews, only that Jews have had so much success in attaining their goals because they have educated themselves and attained positions of power. And that maybe more Muslims should take this approach. Ie., would the media and government here be so very "pro-Israel" if there were more Muslim politicians and media moguls? This isnt something that should take "generations" to accomplish. I've said before in this thread - I DO know that there are injustices against Muslims and that the Jewish get away with much more than the Muslims do. But, again, that is due to the large number of influenial Jewish people in positions of power. And yes, even with "all their education", the typical American sees little of the "typical muslim". Muslims here keep to themselves basically so they are somewhat of a mystery. THere are exceptions of course, I'm talking about the majority here. So what the typical westerner sees MOSTLY is the reporting on Al-Quaeda, suicide attacks etc. I have to say that the majority of people (the ones I know anyway) are open to learning about Islaam, what is it etc. But sadly the curiosity is more due to an attempt at understanding why a "religion" would drive people like OBL and the suicide bombers.

I dont think that my questions here are either convoluted or unclear as to "the big picture". I would simply like to see radical muslims take a more constructive avenue of attaining their goals... I do not think its a fairy-tale wish. It doesnt take "generations" to educate one youth and to put him/her into a public office. Or to attain a high-level position within a reputable media outlet.

And please dont think that I am unsympathetic to the problems that Muslims face. It is because I am sympathetic that I am making these observations and posing these questions to you. It wasnt my intention to get into who did what to who or who is more evil. That isnt constructive and gets us nowhere.
[/QUOTE]

Very well said.

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Such a great thread turned into a kitchen. Ouch!
Mamaof3, if you want me to smack these hungry people just say it.

I agree with someone up there who said that most of the rational and educated muslims never bother to speak up and consequently about the only muslims who are heard are those who spread views like love for OBL and death and destruction to all "kuffar". As the UN's AIDS ad says "apathy is lethal". It truly is, in this case, as well.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *

I agree with someone up there who said that most of the rational and educated muslims never bother to speak up

[/QUOTE]

Now that you've proved that your neither do you have any original thoughts on all this unkil?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mamaof3: *
Thank you all for your replies. Just a couple of things I'd like to add -

To Ms. Muslim Queen, I think you misunderstood about the "judge and jury" bit. It was not my intention to tell anyone how to live. But rather to think about more constructive ways to resolve "muslim issues" and I was asking the "hardliners" to comment on this. I was not trying to say that Muslims should "be like" Jews, only that Jews have had so much success in attaining their goals because they have educated themselves and attained positions of power. And that maybe more Muslims should take this approach. Ie., would the media and government here be so very "pro-Israel" if there were more Muslim politicians and media moguls? So what the typical westerner sees MOSTLY is the reporting on Al-Quaeda, suicide attacks etc. I have to say that the majority of people (the ones I know anyway) are open to learning about Islaam, what is it etc. But sadly the curiosity is more due to an attempt at understanding why a "religion" would drive people like OBL and the suicide bombers.

[/QUOTE]

I agree with you there.However, I think its a lot easier said then done.I mean how is one to get the Muslims to make a move to better themselves as a society? I mean sure they can try - I have no clue why they dont.

btw Islam had nothing to do with OBL. You shouldnt even bother to try to understand why a religion drives people to kill innocents.It was OBL's messed up way of looking at the world. He used Islam as an excuse to carry out those plans- rest assured such actions are against Islam.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
He used Islam as an excuse to carry out those plans- rest assured such actions are against Islam.
[/QUOTE]
You and I believe so and we say so. Osama, on the other hand says that all his actions are in accordance with Islam. A non-muslim reads both statements and says "hmmm... I think I will believe Osama on this one". Thats whats wrong with the scenario. You see? :)

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Faisal: *
You and I believe so and we say so. Osama, on the other hand says that all his actions are in accordance with Islam. A non-muslim reads both statements and says "hmmm... I think I will believe Osama on this one". Thats whats wrong with the scenario. You see? :)
[/QUOTE]

But if a person knew something about Islam- and believe me killing people is AGAINST Islam - its a major sin- I think they should be able to tell the difference?

I mean seriously if you know something about a religion- and you hear some brainless fool saying some crazy action was a part of that religion- Im just wondering how hard is it to tell the difference?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
Im just wondering how hard is it to tell the difference?
[/QUOTE]
Apparently its harder than what you and I think. Unfortunate.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *
But if a person knew something about Islam- and believe me killing people is AGAINST Islam - its a major sin- I think they should be able to tell the difference?

I mean seriously if you know something about a religion- and you hear some brainless fool saying some crazy action was a part of that religion- Im just wondering how hard is it to tell the difference?
[/QUOTE]
Most Americans don't know anything about Islam. The only thing they 'heard' was the noise of two jumbo jets slamming into the WTC. The difference - killing people is against Islam - seems more like theory than practice to these people. The difference (or true Islam) is inconsequential. Suffice to say Americans should know more about Islam, but the only thing effecting their lives are those who are using Islam as a rallying point and justification to attack America.

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Faisal, I don;t think a non-muslim automatically agrees with the OBL's version of islam. I think what gels it for a lot fo people is the hubub I see, even on this website, about who is going to hell for having a drink or wearing lipstick rather than why are a-holes dragging the name of a wonderful religion by blowing up innocents and attributing that to texts of the scripture.

To me it seems like it is not a pitiful minority as you guys make these fundos to be. How could there be any confusion as to whether Al-Qaeda or Jem or LT or those jackasses or th MLF or jammat islamiyah and on and on are nothing more than terrorists. But there is constant placating of their kind.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Seminole: *
Most Americans don't know anything about Islam. The only thing they 'heard' was the noise of two jumbo jets slamming into the WTC. The difference - killing people is against Islam - seems more like theory than practice to these people. The difference (or true Islam) is inconsequential. Suffice to say Americans should know more about Islam, but the only thing effecting their lives are those who are using Islam as a rallying point and justification to attack America.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you.However, wouldnt you say that the above are all the more reasons to go out and actually learn about different people and their religions?I think we're all to blame for our ignorance.If we can- we should go out and learn about other nations.We should not rely only on the media when something such as 9/11 takes places.

Its strange but we only seem care about anything outside of our little shell.... when something hits home.No pun intended.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Muslim_Queen: *

I agree with you.However, wouldnt you say that the above are all the more reasons to go out and actually learn about different people and their religions?I think we're all to blame for our ignorance.If we can- we should go out and learn about other nations.We should not rely only on the media when something such as 9/11 takes places.

Its strange but we only seem care about anything outside of our little shell.... when something hits home.No pun intended.
[/QUOTE]
And I agree with you. But this ignorance of others and other religions is not limited to the US and is unlikely to change as humans are by nature egocentric and lazy. So it is just as important for western media, governments, schools and churches to get the word out regarding Islam as it is for Arab media, government, schools and clergy to get the truth out about America.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Matsui: *
Faisal, I don;t think a non-muslim automatically agrees with the OBL's version of islam. I think what gels it for a lot fo people is the hubub I see, even on this website, about who is going to hell for having a drink or wearing lipstick rather than why are a-holes dragging the name of a wonderful religion by blowing up innocents and attributing that to texts of the scripture.

To me it seems like it is not a pitiful minority as you guys make these fundos to be.
[/QUOTE]

So you are basing your views on a few web-sites? Have you ever looked at some of the Indian web-sites around? If you want to concentrate on suicide bombers despite everything else that goes on here is it any wonder that people get pissed off?

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My two cents. Hope this is somewhat coherent:

Power-hungry people create and use fear in order to gain influence and control. There are people like this everywhere, and unfortunately they are often the most vocal and even the most successful. They prey on those who are suffering and those who are weak, disenfranchised, lonely.

Many people who resort to violence feel they are left with no other options. They have been suffering and feel no one has come to help them. May Allah protect them. Then there are those that exploit this suffering, who benefit from it, and use it as an excuse to create terror. May Allah protect us from them.

Those of us who are mashAllah living comfortably should do what we can to educate and strengthen the Muslim community while teaching nonMuslims about Islam. We should be productive members of whatever society we live in and use our influence to better the state of Muslims all over the world. WE should never resort to violence when we have other means of practicing Islam and helping Muslims.

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//I agree with you.However, wouldnt you say that the above are all the more reasons to go out and actually learn about different people and their religions?I think we're all to blame for our ignorance.If we can- we should go out and learn about other nations.We should not rely only on the media when something such as 9/11 takes places.

Its strange but we only seem care about anything outside of our little shell.... when something hits home.No pun intended//

It is very easy to blame somebody else for what is happening. How many of us really go out and learn about other nations. How many know of a nation called Burkino Faso. My primary aim is to have a nice life and live the 'American Dream'. I would rather believe what is dished out in CNN( or rather Fox) than go to Arab to see what is happening. As Mamaof3 rightly said, it is the duty of the muslim intelligentia to change the perception in the western world.
Thap would surely disagree on this but one question I would want to ask him is this --
Where has the suicide bombings landed Islam. Does it have any effect. Sharon becomes more confrontonist. And the ordinary American seems to support him. The image he has of muslims is that of the terrorists screaming "Allah ho Akbar " and then proceeding to behead an unarmed hostage. Is this the image that Islam wants to portray to the non -Islamic World....