Understanding Islaam and Muslims

As a westerner learning about Islaam, I find most of the threads here upsetting. Of course there are “rabid” worshippers within EVERY religion but as I learn about Islaam, I learn of a religion that promotes tolerance, peace and harmony amongst ALL people. In this forum, there is SO much hatred and many, many “Muslims” who think it is their job to judge others - “filthy infidels” AND other muslims. Who is a “good” muslim, who is not. Who make you guys judge and jury??

Anyway, I do agree that there are injustices to muslims out there but thinking that it is some vast conspiracy against muslims in general does nothing but harm. Take a look at how the Jewish accomplish their goals: They sacrifice anything to educate their young. They promote themselves into media, government, banking, finance - all the “power” fields. This way, they have garnered much influence in foreign policy, law-making, etc etc.

Why cant more the more “radical” muslims (or whatever word you most choose to describe) understand this? If OBL had used his millions to take the same approach and do some GOOD for his fellow muslims, maybe he wouldnt be the most hunted man on the planet today. Rather, he’s hiding in filthy caves and many muslim countries are floundering in dire poverty with absolutely shameful literacy rates. I wont get into the terror attacks and the killing of so many innocents here because I know you think it justified for the killing of “your” innocents. Where does it end? By using more planes as bombs??? Exactly WHAT do you think that accomplished? I’ll answer that - it made westerners suspicious and wary of muslims. It made it very difficult for your young to get visas to come over and study in good universities. Just to name 2 “accomplishments” of your jihad. What about maybe, perhaps educating your people, spreading GOOD news about Islaam and showing the “filthy infidels” that Islaam is NOT a hate-mongering religion that thinks its a duty to wage “jihad” with suicidal radicals.

Mama, as usual you put in your 2 cents worth without thinking about other and their grievances...Typically American...

How about when American leaders call a proven murderer like Sharon, a man who led Israeli commandos into a camp of unarmed refugees and slaughtered almost 3,000 men, women and children in Sabra and Shatila 'a man of peace'...Google it...

Compared to him Osama Bin Laden is a saint, yet to Americans he is a 'man of peace'...The Holy Quran states that the Jews and Christians are allies and never will they side on your behalf, and this is just a tiny example of that...

Don't just post on the basis of what you 'feel' is right...You need to know what is right and wrong and then base your opinions on that...

Here…Don’t Google, just click…SABRA AND SHATILA By Robert Fisk

Re: Understanding Islaam and Muslims

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mamaof3: *
Anyway, I do agree that there are injustices to muslims out there but thinking that it is some vast conspiracy against muslims in general does nothing but harm. Take a look at how the Jewish accomplish their goals: They sacrifice anything to educate their young. They promote themselves into media, government, banking, finance - all the "power" fields. This way, they have garnered much influence in foreign policy, law-making, etc etc.

Why cant more the more "radical" muslims (or whatever word you most choose to describe) understand this? If OBL had used his millions to take the same approach and do some GOOD for his fellow muslims, maybe he wouldnt be the most hunted man on the planet today. Rather, he's hiding in filthy caves and many muslim countries are floundering in dire poverty with absolutely shameful literacy rates. I wont get into the terror attacks and the killing of so many innocents here because I know you think it justified for the killing of "your" innocents. Where does it end? By using more planes as bombs??? Exactly WHAT do you think that accomplished? I'll answer that - it made westerners suspicious and wary of muslims. It made it very difficult for your young to get visas to come over and study in good universities. Just to name 2 "accomplishments" of your jihad. What about maybe, perhaps educating your people, spreading GOOD news about Islaam and showing the "filthy infidels" that Islaam is NOT a hate-mongering religion that thinks its a duty to wage "jihad" with suicidal radicals.
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Why we consider our suggestion is always the best way of doing some thing...OBL have invested so much for the muslims..he has invested/put at stake his life & money for islam...
What you and others dont uderstand is -say what if osama becomes * good muslims* as you like him to be....will our sufferings stop...why put every thing on osama or mujahideens shoulders...there are so many others more wealthier muslims who can support these activity...why asking this from a man who have decided to stop those who are giving pains to muslims in a way they understand....

You've completely missed my point. WHat I'm getting at is HOW to accomplish "muslim objectives". Using planes as bombs, strapping backpack bombs on the backs of disillusioned boys to kill themselves and others - is THIS the way to accomplish anything??? In the name of Islaam???? PERHAPS "muslim objectives" would be better obtained if its people were educated and influential in the fields of finance, politics, foreign policy etc etc???? THAT and that alone is my point. I AM completely aware that there are injustices against muslims, but it will never change until perception of muslims changes.

The "western" world - ie., people who live in developed countries see little of muslims. What they DO get to see is for the most part cave-dwelling hate-mongering millionaires who take disillusioned boys and convince them to blow themselves up to take out "filthy infidels" and that they will be richly rewarded for that in the afterlife. Is THIS the image you want the world to see???? SLOWLY sawing off the head of a poor marine who is in the military so that he can better his own education and ability to earn a living???? If you answer yes to that, then you need to get your heads examined.

Again, I AM aware of injustice against muslims and please read what I have written, i think it is SOOOO important. Westerners need to know that Islaam is not the evil, hate mongering religion that drives poor uneducated boys to suicide bombings but rather one that teaches tolerance, peace, understanding. And the ONLY way to get to that point is to spend the money on education and developmenty rather than more backpack bombs.

I feel this article is fitting for this topic:

**Analysis: Interpreting Islam

The arrival in Britain of the Islamic preacher, Yusuf Al-Qaradawi, has sparked controversy because of his views on suicide bombings. BBC Arab Affairs analyst Magdi Abdelhadi considers what wider Islamic teaching has to say on the subject:**

The vast majority of Muslims feel that there is a huge gap between how they perceive themselves and their faith and how the rest of the world views them.

Many blame the discrepancy on the Western media. They accuse it of distorting what is essentially a peace-loving and tolerant faith.

The gap in perceptions has increased dramatically since 9/11.

Palestinian suicide bombings and recent beheadings of foreign hostages in Iraq in the name of Islam have only reinforced the association between Islam and violence in Western perceptions.

Consider for example this query posted on a popular Islamic website:

"Too often, the media in the West presents the image of Muslims as violent, but I know this is not correct. I am a Muslim, but… I will never kill anyone. When I watch the genocide in Chechnya or Bosnia, or the tragedy which unfolds in Palestine, it makes me very angry and very sad.

"I pray that Allah will allow peace to prevail among humanity, between Muslims and non-Muslims alike. I like to think that I and other Muslims can be a force for peace rather than for violence. Am I wrong?.. This is really troubling me, and any advice you can provide would be much appreciated. "

The writer is clearly troubled by the difference between his or her personal experience of Islam and Western representations of Muslims. But more crucially, they seem to be seeking reassurance: is it right, in the face of apparent injustices to Muslims in Bosnia and Chechnya, that they should “never kill anyone”?

**‘Holy war’ **

The writer of the query must be aware of Muslim volunteers who have gone off to Chechnya to defend fellow Muslims against the “Russian oppressors”. Is it then legitimate to kill in the name of Islam?

This is where the Islamic concept of Jihad comes into play.

Jihad is often translated as “holy war”. But Muslim scholars describe it not so much as war, but as the right to self-defence. Under this interpretation, Muslims are enjoined to take up arms against their oppressors, be they local despots or foreign occupiers. Jihad is one of the fundamental duties of a Muslim.

But does this mean that Muslims who believe that they are engaged in legitimate self-defence or a war of liberation - like the Chechens or the Palestinians - are free to pursue their goals by any means available?

Is the killing of the civilian population of the enemies, for example, permissible?

Most Muslim scholars believe that the killing of civilians is forbidden.

In their support, they cite well-known sayings of Prophet Mohammad that forbid killing the enemy’s women and children or burning down their vegetation - what are today known as scorched earth tactics.

But militants like Osama Bin Laden or radical clerics like Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi have a different take on this issue.

Radical interpretations

Under the assumption that the US is the enemy of Muslims, Bin Laden defended the 9/11 attacks on the grounds that the civilians who were killed contributed to the American war machine by paying taxes.

Although Sheikh Al-Qaradawi denounced the 9-11 attacks, his controversial justification for suicide attacks on Israeli civilians is strikingly similar.

Sheikh Al-Qaradawi believes, for example, that it is right to target Israeli women, because they are army reservists who can be summoned to active duty at any time - an argument that is also used by Palestinian militant groups such as Hamas to justify suicide attacks.

This is a controversial interpretation of Islamic principles and appears to be dictated by political convenience rather than rigorous adherence to the literal meaning of the Koran.

Strictly speaking, Islam bans suicide. But scholars like Sheikh Al-Qaradawi redefine suicide bombing in terms of a sacrificial act for a greater good, i.e. defeating the enemy.

This license to re-interpret the Koran and Islamic tradition is known in Islam as ‘ijtihad’. Roughly defined, ijtihad is the right of Muslim scholars to develop original interpretations of the Koran with the aim of formulating religious edicts on matters that were unknown in the time of the prophet more than 1,400 years ago, such as cloning or organ transplant.

In this sense, they can wield enormous power on matters of life and death.

**Rules or guidelines? **

But in areas such as politics and social conflict, the boundaries between what is acceptable or not from an Islamic point of view can vary a great deal.

Take, for example, the controversial issue of whether Muslim women should wear the veil. The passage cited in support of an injunction to wear the veil is couched in language that is open to varying interpretations:

“And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and protect their private parts and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent and to draw their veils all over their Juyubihinna”.

The edition I am using refrains from translating the word “Juyubihinna”, because it is ambiguous. Should the veil cover the entire body, or just the head and the hair? Other editions translate it as “bosom”.

Some liberal scholars and Muslim feminists have also argued that the injunction applies only to women at the time of the prophet.

Such a reading questions the orthodox view that rules of behaviour laid down by the Koran are applicable anywhere and at any time. This is the view held by most Islamist movements who want to create an Islamic state ruled by Sharia (Islamic law).

**Freedom of choice **
At the heart of the disagreement between the two groups is the question of whether the Koran lays down specific and binding rules, or general guidelines. For the literalists, it lays down concrete rules.

The liberals believe that it only contains general principles, and that it is up to Muslims to interpret them in accordance with the needs of the society and the times they live in.

This exegetical dispute is not dissimilar to the one surrounding the ordination of gay priests in Britain. If the message of Christianity is interpreted as one of love and inclusiveness, then a person’s sexual orientation should not really matter.

Similarly, if Islam - as most Muslims believe - is about tolerance, peace and freedom from oppression, then it is up to individual Muslims to make choices that do not infringe on the rights of others.

MehnazQ Thank You! for your intelligent reply. The real answer lies in education and once this is realized and acted upon - THEN and ONLY than will peace have a chance.

Imagine - if the money spent on suicide and terror attacks were spent on education and development of muslims in western countries. The educated could become influential in governmental policies. FOreign policy. Finance. The majority christian public would become more aware of the GOODNESS of Islaam.

The world would be a much different place.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Lajawab: *

Don't just post on the basis of what you 'feel' is right...You need to know what is right and wrong and then base your opinions on that...
[/QUOTE]
Youd shouldn't be so sanctimonous as you don't know what is right and wrong any more than anyone else. Your post just validated her initial post. If the cause of the suicide bombers, OBL and other terror groups are so righteous, they wouldn't have to strap bombs and blow up babies or fly planes into buildings.

If the people are being suppressed or abused, then the people need to rise against the governments. To warp it into some righteous religous cause does not make any sense. No one is attacking "Muslims". Wrapping it in some God or Muhammed ordained battle against the kafir not only makes non Muslims FEEL suspicious against Islam and Muslims, they KNOW it is wrong.

Apparently, the terror attacks are out of mere frustration and quick solutions. They have nothing to do with helping Islam. However, you have made a good point that if OBL really had betterment of muslims in mind, he would have laid out well planned strategy. Education would be at the top of the priority list. Unfortunately, these puppets are working in the name of religion for the gain of a few. And to top it all, we have members on this forum who are getting defensive instead of agreeing with a logical proposal.
If you want to learn more about Islam and Muslims, I would recommend that you don’t read this section of GS. it will only uneducate you. :-)

:) i very rarely venture here. but i had some xtra time today and read some of the sanctimonious, judgemental posts and just couldnt resist the post that I made. I've longed for education rather than hatred for quite some time and don't understand why its so ignored here- just look at the successes the Jewish have had - ALL due to diligent education. Extended families pool their resources so that they can further the careers of their young and turn them into the influencial individuals who make foreign policy and run the media. Know what? Good for them. And may "others" have the foresight to realize that this is the way to get things accomplished.

Mamof3

Good point..The problem here on GS is the same as the problem in the street, your average muslim has no interest in this, but the rabid ones scream at the top of their lungs and are thus more noticed and stick out like a sore thumb.

Ppl like this spoil it for everyone. they may be all fans of the goon and may talk a big talk, but I dont see them hiding in the caves with their hero.

Just looking at the membership here will give u an idea, are there a few who have these idiotic notions sure, but teh vast majority of members here not only have no interest in such views, but they dont participate in these discussions due to the displays of intolerance by a certain few.

Mr. Fruadia, you have an very good point. But it is those people who are screaming at the top of their lungs that need to know what I'm trying to tell them I think. The vast majority of muslims would agree, but sadly, they are not the ones that are heard around the world. Its the ones who ADMIRE obl and his tactics that are heard and these are the ones who need to be educated and redirected to constuctive ways of addressing problems.

...ps where did all our "hardliners" disappear to????

Mamaof3,

Unfortunately, Islam is no longer the Islam it used to be back in the time of its evolution. People who call themselves muslims, "pick" and "choose" what they want to believe in. Also, the interpretation of the quran has been very much distorted. Islam itself is a beautiful religion and with it comes perfection for all mankind. Unfortunately, our so called "mullahs" (religious leaders) have created a monster out of it.

Mamaof3,

Go out and meet some Muslims and discover Islam for yourself, maybe it's for you to get involved in and not just observe and comment on.

And don't get so upset, judging a billion based on a few aint a clever thing to do.

Diva,

Islam never stopped 'evolving' it's always had people that would rather beat themselves up about things rather than find aspects to be proud of and build on. Some good examples of such people are pretty active on this site.

Thap, you're a that I assumption that my discovery of Islaam is limited to Gupshup is quite incorrect. So is your assumption that I simply observe and comment.

Like I said before, the vast majority of Mulsims that I've met are wonderful, good people. THe ones who are not I've only seen here on Gupshup and in media. It is to those that I am addressing my question regarding the approaches that have been taken to resolve issues. The rabid Islaamists who want to kill the filthy infidels. Rather than taking an educated approach to the problems. I'd like to see why they think that terror attacks are the answer and why they do not think that taking an educated approach is feasible.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mamaof3: *
Thap, you're a that I assumption that my discovery of Islaam is limited to Gupshup is quite incorrect. So is your assumption that I simply observe and comment.

Like I said before, the vast majority of Mulsims that I've met are wonderful, good people. THe ones who are not I've only seen here on Gupshup and in media. It is to those that I am addressing my question regarding the approaches that have been taken to resolve issues. The rabid Islaamists who want to kill the filthy infidels. Rather than taking an educated approach to the problems. I'd like to see why they think that terror attacks are the answer and why they do not think that taking an educated approach is feasible.
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Mamaof3,

you raise two points
- the 'good' muslim isnt seen in the media, gs etc etc.
- Muslims arent very intelligent when it comes to achieving their aims, as opposed to the jews for example.

regarding the media, you yourself say that your personal experience is contrary to what the media would have you believe. perhaps its the fault of the media?

yes, in our media too, americans are sometimes portrayed as exclusively being jerry falwells, rush limbaughs etc. but those are mostly evening rags. responsible media, dawn, the news, mostly present a more balanced picture.

you cannot expect a society to be completely conformant to PC and your bare minimums of civility. none exists. it is the fault of the western media that Muslims today are exclusively identified with OBL. wilful dupes of an administration that would like, for whatever reasons there may be, to cold war-ify Muslims ala USSR.

likewise, as far as GS goes, surely you cannot argue that Muslims on this forum are exclusively bomb the incubated children ones. there is a very varied spectrum of posters here, as there would in any reasonably large discussion forum that has any hopes of being 'representative'.

regarding the intelligence bit. you have a valid point. i too believe that the millions spent either buying yatchs and buying out spanish towns or financing the collisions of jets into buildings could be put to much better use. what that use is, is for all of us to think abt and find out.

Inever meant to imply that Guppies are mostly fans of obl and the taliban, quite the contrary!

I came to this particular forum to discuss this topic because there are a couple of that type in here. I wanted their responses. (One of them even recently posted of his eager anticipation of the return of the Taliban). Never really got a good answer from that type, only from the more "typical" muslims.

Yes, the media is to blame for western perceptions of Islaam. But what makes news? The actions of the taliban, how opressive and mean they were to their own people. The Trade Center bombings. Suicide bombings. Beheadings. Sadly, although these are the acts and actions of the xtreme few, they make headlines and the more typical muslim doesnt "rate" as news.

I have to say however, that there has been an effort in the past 2 yrs or so to educate people more and more about Islaam and the fact that the news-making Islaamists are not considered by Muslims to be "good" muslims. That Islaam teaches peace and harmony. Much more needs to be done, but its a start...

WHat I would like to see in the news is maybe a Muslim senator. Or congressman/woman. A Muslim CEO or CFO of a major corporation. Would they not be able to BETTER the goals and objectives of Muslim concerns around the world than a disillusioned boy who straps a bomb on his back? Thats the heart of my question, it is addressed to the hardliners here. They have yet to respond with any clarity.

Quote: "Mama, as usual you put in your 2 cents worth without thinking about other and their grievances...Typically American...

How about when American leaders call a proven murderer like Sharon, a man who led Israeli commandos into a camp of unarmed refugees and slaughtered almost 3,000 men, women and children in Sabra and Shatila 'a man of peace'...Google it...

Compared to him Osama Bin Laden is a saint, yet to Americans he is a 'man of peace'...The Holy Quran states that the Jews and Christians are allies and never will they side on your behalf, and this is just a tiny example of that...

Don't just post on the basis of what you 'feel' is right...You need to know what is right and wrong and then base your opinions on that..."

Mr Lawajab,

Although you ignored my point and did not answer the question that I posed, I will go off topic a bit to address your reply. First, I am completely aware that there are injustices against Muslims, in particular the Palestinians. The general public here is getting tired of Mr Sharon but thats just an aside. Look at HOW the Jewish people invariably push to educate their young. So that they can influence foreign policy, law-making, media venues etc etc. That is the reason that they have been successful in THEIR goals. So it just goes back to my ORIGINAL question to you hardliners. Why cant you see your way clear to solving problems through positive accomplishment rather than destruction? If there were more Muslim congressmen and senators, wouldnt they be better able to influence foreign policy? If there were Muslims in positions of power in the Media, wouldnt they be better able to influence popular opinion? As far as your statement about Jews and Christians being allies, I think it goes a bit further than that....Jews, Christians AND Muslims are ALL "children of the Book". Thats my understanding.

Please keep to the subject instead of trying to justify violence with more violence. That was not my intention.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mamaof3: *
The general public here is getting tired of Mr Sharon but thats just an aside.
[/QUOTE]

-ooh just getting ‘tired’ now?

[QUOTE]
Look at HOW the Jewish people invariably push to educate their young. So that they can influence foreign policy, law-making, media venues etc etc.

[/QUOTE]

  • Yes very commendable to educate and push your young to influence foreign powers to kill in your name. Great example!

[QUOTE]
Why cant you see your way clear to solving problems through positive accomplishment rather than destruction?
[/QUOTE]

-I've lost track now are we still talking about extremists terrorists or Christian Zionists?

[QUOTE]
Jews, Christians AND Muslims are ALL "children of the Book". Thats my understanding.
[/QUOTE]

-Yep, and? I think we're talking about Isreal/US v Iraq?

Good luck on your journey brother.

On your violence soap box here's a tit bit:

I've never met a suicide bomber, can't condone or condemn one, can't even give an opinion on whether I think it's right or wrong, until I'm in the same circumstances I wouldn't know what I'd do. And if you're all honest neither do you. Discuss or maybe rather just let it sit for a while.