Yes, Mr Thap. Americans are tiring of Mr Sharon, even WITH the Jewish media moguls who control much of the media within this society. But like I said, thats an ASIDE to my REAL question (still ignored by you).
Educating their young to kill in their name? To a point. But their real goals are not to kill but rather to keep land that they beleive is theirs, that they do not want to give up. They are successful at this because they have attained positions of power.
...comparing Christian zionists with Extremist terrorists. That isnt something that I asked about. You're Still ignoring my question. Why are the so-called Zionists getting away with it????? BECAUSE they have much power and control in positions of power that can be obtained ONLY by EDUCATION and DILIGENT hard work. CAN'T you SEE THIS????? And understand that I am on the side of Muslims????
You cant condone or condemn a suicide bomber because you've "never been in their position"??? Well GOOD LUCK to YOU, "brother". Do you know any VICTIMS of this type of obscene attack?? I DO. GOOD people. Innocent people. Who had no gripe with Muslims or Islaam. The killing of just ONE innocent is equivalent to genocide in Islaam. So go ahead and remain indifferent. I refuse to and this is the reason that I'm digging my heels in and asking for answers from you hardliners. Your type removes ANY hope for peace in the world. And by "your type" I refer to ANY race, religion or culture that can justify the types of things that you're trying to justify.
Not indifferent just not ignorant of the fact that the circumstance reveals all in the individual. Hey you never know I in the those circumstances might turn the other cheek and you go and blow yourself up in some pizzeria? You just never know! tink on it man :)
NEVER would I even THINK of blowing myself up under ANY circumstance. And take the chance of killing an innocent? Not to mention the loss of my own precious life that I have been so gifted with?? No way, no how, NEVER. If You want to take this tack, go for it 'bro. And answer to your God for taking out individuals who never had any gripe with you.
...by the way, do you have ANY response AT ALL to the questions I've asked of you?
Man you just never know until you're there. You could be the biggest cemtex Abdul around.
Your questions, "why are Zionists getting away with it"
Getting away with what? Iraq, Palestine, Disney's prince of Egypt? Which bits? Be more specific, you know you're liable to have your arms drop off with all that waving.
You're on the side of the Muslims, good for you brother. You know it's customary to make your fellow brethren a cup of tea when in discussion with them, no milk no sugar and make it with lots of luv. Ta.
My GOODness I feel like a broken record now. My question to YOU is NOT "Why are Zionists getting away with it?" ( I know the answer to this, its because the so-called Zionists know HOW to approach a problem in a way that they will be able to accomplish their goals). But RATHER my question is - why dont you "Islaamists" understand how to accomplish your goals? PLEASE READ MY PREVIOUS POSTS.
If those are too difficult for you to understand, well, then here is a new question for you. Who will ACCOMPLISH MORE FOR MUSLIMS:
A powerful Muslim - ie, a Muslim senator or congressman, a Muslim "media mogul" (one who controls a newspaper or other media outlet
OR
A disillusioned teenaged boy who blows himself up on a bus full of unsuspecting civilians
AND WHICH OF THE TWO IS A "BETTER" Muslim???????????
So, here is a nice cup of tea for you to drink while you ponder these question and I eagerly await your response.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mamaof3: *
My GOODness I feel like a broken record now. My question to YOU is NOT "Why are Zionists getting away with it?" ( I know the answer to this, its because the so-called Zionists know HOW to approach a problem in a way that they will be able to accomplish their goals). But RATHER my question is - why dont you "Islaamists" understand how to accomplish your goals? PLEASE READ MY PREVIOUS POSTS.
If those are too difficult for you to understand, well, then here is a new question for you. Who will ACCOMPLISH MORE FOR MUSLIMS:
A powerful Muslim - ie, a Muslim senator or congressman, a Muslim "media mogul" (one who controls a newspaper or other media outlet
OR
A disillusioned teenaged boy who blows himself up on a bus full of unsuspecting civilians
AND WHICH OF THE TWO IS A "BETTER" Muslim???????????
So, here is a nice cup of tea for you to drink while you ponder these question and I eagerly await your response.
[/QUOTE]
-Dude 'Islamists'? 'Better Muslims' you missed the boat on Islam and Muslims there I'm afraid.
-Again with the presumption 'disillusioned teenaged boy' I thought I made myself clear on this bit, we don't know until we're there. You may be that 'disillusioned middle-aged man'
-Islam and Muslims like all ideology and peoples are organic, media moguls and senators are just titles.
You should be ashamed of yourself Mr Thap. And, btw, I could never be the "disillusioned middle aged man" you mentioned as I am a woman. And like I said before, I would NEVER, NEVER take my own life, let alone the lives of unsuspecting others. No question about it EVER, no matter WHAT circumstance.
You think that "senator", "congressman" and "editor" of major media outlet are just simply "titles"????? That the holders of these "simple titles" do not influence foreign policy, etc??? My GOODness, your ignorace is astounding.
Go, enjoy your biscuits. And continue to ignore the way to solving problems in a peaceful humanitarian manner. Some say that "ignorance is bliss". Well, you must be one of the most blissful beings on the planet. You've YET to answer ANY of the respectful questions that I've posed.
Here we go again, you could be doing the pizzeria, you don't know until you're there. Woman man or of any other persuasion, this is simply about circumstance and the environment impacting your behavioural action in the instant.
Yes simply titles, we all have a lot of influence in our own ways, you blowing up the pizzeria for one…you might you know. Me typing this to you. These senators and media moguls are at current to the detriment of your ‘Islamists’ do we want to swing the pendulum all the other way?
Think big, think medium but for goodness sake do think a little.
I'm all for peace lady, but rooted in justice.
Help a brother out and sweep up the crumbs will yah?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mamaof3: *
My GOODness I feel like a broken record now. My question to YOU is NOT "Why are Zionists getting away with it?" ( I know the answer to this, its because the so-called Zionists know HOW to approach a problem in a way that they will be able to accomplish their goals). But RATHER my question is - why dont you "Islaamists" understand how to accomplish your goals? PLEASE READ MY PREVIOUS POSTS.
If those are too difficult for you to understand, well, then here is a new question for you. Who will ACCOMPLISH MORE FOR MUSLIMS:
A powerful Muslim - ie, a Muslim senator or congressman, a Muslim "media mogul" (one who controls a newspaper or other media outlet
OR
A disillusioned teenaged boy who blows himself up on a bus full of unsuspecting civilians
AND WHICH OF THE TWO IS A "BETTER" Muslim???????????
So, here is a nice cup of tea for you to drink while you ponder these question and I eagerly await your response.
[/QUOTE]
Seems as if you're living in a fairy-tale world. Thap is perfectly right, do you know what some of these suicice bombers have gone through? You sit on your comfy couch and post on websites but you have no idea what brings such people to such extreme action. You think they have no dreams of their own? You think they were simply born with the sole aim of becoming a suicide bomber? NO.
You talk about rich/influential Muslims who can educate and invest. I am sorry to break it to you but there are more teenage orphans, widows and persecuted Muslims than your average Muslim philanthropist. Also all these educational solutions sound really good on paper but you realize that such things are LONG term solutions, will take generations to even make a slight difference. Does that solve the problem of bulldozers running over your house and family? Does that solve the problem seeing your father shot dead in the streets? Does that solve the problem of B52 bombers wiping out your village? Does that solve the problem of foreign armies trampling all over your country killing with reckless abandon in the name of liberation?
Do you really beleive you're gonna make people like those sit down and read a few books and tell them everything is going to be all right? If yes, then you need to get your head examined.
Ok let me have a go at looking at the 'big picture'. I think what Mamaof3 is trying to say is that muslims have not really achieved much due to their intellectual stagnation. Take Saudi Arabia for example: despite having so much wealth on account of sitting on all that oil they have built no industries to speak of, their business acumen is dwarved by the likes of China and India...so long term blowing this or that up is pretty hopeless.
I suppose it boils down to what one would value achievement to be? And equating the industrialisation of a country with blowing stuff up isn’t really tangible is it?
I think Mamaof3 is talking about Muslim introspection in a rather convoluted way, but here’s the pickle see, introspection by virtue is analysis from within, a natural process I’m arguing an organic process even.
So coming up with suicide bombers and Jewish senators or janitors is neither here nor there, each a facet of a process and quite distinct.
Mamaof3 mentions justice in her opening post, and then drifts in and out of ‘Islamists’ and ‘better Muslims’ as if racing for the punch line.
Let’s discuss something new I say, let’s see the bigger picture, bigger even than the industrialisation of Saudi Arabia. How about the relative perception of life in a materialistic and spiritual sense for starters.
Then maybe we can all start understanding Islam and Muslims, me too!
Alright Mamaof3 lets start with one of your very first comments.You wrote "Who made you guys judge and jury??"
Now if you're going to start with such a question- Im tempted to ask you -who gave you the right to tell.. how another person should live his/her life? You have your own little view about what people should strive for and what they should live for.But as you pointed out- nobody made you the judge or jury.
Your next point:
*Take a look at how the Jewish accomplish their goals: They sacrifice anything to educate their young. They promote themselves into media, government, banking, finance - all the "power" fields. This way, they have garnered much influence in foreign policy, law-making, etc etc. *
Are you trying to say that the Muslims should try to be more like the Jewish ? You must also know about the situation in Palestine and Israel. The Jewish also kill innocent people.If you're going to talk of a people, do try to look at all sides of the coin.You're only stating the points of one side- you're completely ignoring the other.
** If OBL had used his millions to take the same approach and do some GOOD for his fellow muslims, maybe he wouldnt be the most hunted man on the planet today. Rather, he's hiding in filthy caves and many muslim countries are floundering in dire poverty with absolutely shameful literacy rates. I wont get into the terror attacks and the killing of so many innocents here because I know you think it justified for the killing of "your" innocents. **
Hundreds of Muslims are being killed everyday too.The war on Afghanistan and Iraq- do you have any idea how many innocent people were killed? Oh I forgot Bush is using his money to free the people of Iraq.Nevermind that they will be dead when its time to enjoy the so called freedom. And all that is being done against Muslims- you're once again- ignoring the other side.
*You've completely missed my point. WHat I'm getting at is HOW to accomplish "muslim objectives". Using planes as bombs, strapping backpack bombs on the backs of disillusioned boys to kill themselves and others - is THIS the way to accomplish anything??? In the name of Islaam???? *
Maybe we should use planes to bomb people- like Bush is doing? Instead of killing a few it will kill hundreds at once! But oh I keep forgetting- this is in the name of freedom!
The "western" world - ie., people who live in developed countries see little of muslims. What they DO get to see is for the most part cave-dwelling hate-mongering millionaires who take disillusioned boys and convince them to blow themselves up to take out "filthy infidels" and that they will be richly rewarded for that in the afterlife. Is THIS the image you want the world to see????
They can only see those people that abuse Islam?Those use the name of Islam?Yet despite all their education they cant see the real Islam? From people who might be living next door? If these nations are developed, should they not be able to tell the difference between the REAL Muslims and the ones that only use the name of Islam to hurt innocents?
All I can say is if you wish to learn about Islam and its people- you might want to clear your thoughts a little bit.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mamaof3: *
...and still YET no answers Mr Thap???? Better to blow up a pizzeria than to influence law-making and media??????????????/?
Hello????? anyone IN THERE?????????????
[/QUOTE]
Ohhoo Why are you screaming ????
We are here to listen to you. You dont need to repeat your question thousand times in order to get an answer. Just relax and chill.
What you are saying about education is 100% right. Muslims need to educate themselves and get influential. But it will take time and in case of case of arabs, life time. :p
And about suicide bombing and etc. It comes before my eyes that picture of palestinian mother lying dead with wound of bullet in her forehead, next to her two months sons who eyes are open and looking towards the sky.
Is it not better that isreali army kills that infant too at the same time, so to save the lives of innocent isreali citizens, who will be killed by that suicide bomber in future ?
good to see an intelligent thread but from some one who seeks the indepth knowledge of islam. And in doing so has touched the very important issues / reason for muslims down fall and the sad state of their intellect that lacks Education religion or non religion / education into the worldly matters / competence among the league of nations and other religions.
Here we are, almost every poster is whining about america / the great conspiracy / jews / and the great injust that the muslims are facing today.
Jews have been through the worse crisis in the Entire history of the prophecy upto the halucast in 2nd world war.
Muslims are taught to hate jews from the day they are born, thus already the depreviation process of an essential part part of the human culture has been kept in shadows and behind several curtains.
Us muslims have this problem and scare of weak faith; i.e if you seek information about other religions for dealing puposes or any other purpose will weaken their Iman.
On the contraray the teachings of Koran and the last Sermon of Prophet Mohammad :saw: should be enough for the knowledge and guidance seekers.
Instaed I see so called scholars from the history or the present day who have given theor own interpretation of their own understanding and they all are good read and are convincing. but unfortunatley they have contributed to the great diversions that we see today.
Some posters here with so called religious knowledge are more fond of few authers who have written their researchs and are enjoying more mentions here then the Koran it self. Although I’m sure its all done in vain , but like they say. Any goes to win an aurgument. Wala Alam
Bottom line for you is. Read Koran its interpretation and the The Prophet Mohammads :saw: last sermon to his Umma from mount Arafa. ( Set of instructions for his :saw : Umaa to do as a final stage of the revelation of the Allah’s:swt: koran to his final prophet.:saw:
This is a daring reply and many would disagree. But it is the reality.
Islam teaches muslims to seek new frontiers in knowledge
explore new lands
widen your cultral values
spread among the people and the nations
Live in peace with BLACK/WHITE/MUSLIMS/NON-MUSLIMS(including jews) ( However caustions exist to our dealings limitations with them)
Muslims today are becoming obssessed with Bush’ism Jews conspiracies etc etc etc..
questions is " where are you (muslims) in your progress in the league of nations. what do you have to show so far in the progress.??etc etc etc..???
Muslims today love generalising (irony) and love doing away with anything they can be proud of. Muslims today in reality are no different form Muslims a 1000 years ago, maybe only in incorporating shame and transforming into apologists in order to hide their lack of call for justice on an individual level.
Mama, you need to look at two things here…Muslims and mod-Muslims…
The Holy Prophet :saw: said that “The Ummah is like a body…When one portion of the body feels pain the whole body suffers”…
Today we have mod-Muslims…Let me explain what a mod–Muslim is:
The mod-Muslim is a very cool creature…It is a creature which is not angered easily, in fact he is spiritually dead…He is very non-chalant about his spirituality but very concerned by how he portrays himself religiously, meaning he wants to portray himself as a piuos person without having piety…It’s crystal clear…
The mod-Muslim being more concerned with image rather than being faithful, doesn’t really care about what happens to Muslims around the world as long as he gives a benevolent and loving image of himself in front of the Kuffar or non-believers…
You ask why the Muslims don’t act more like Jews, like when they are threatened or picked upon…I’ll tell you why…
It’s because when 9,000 Muslim farmers are massacred in Serbrenica in an attack, these mod Muslims are more concerned with how a Muslim detonated a suicide bomb in Israel thereby giving Muslims a bad name…He doesn’r raise his voice for those dead 9,000 Muslims, but lambasts the suicide bomber for being an animal for killing unarmed people…
When Israel attacks a paraplegic man in a wheelchair killing him and his followers with Sidewinders fired from an Apache, he will be condemning Muslims for beheading an invading marine…Never will he speak against the killing of the cripple whose only crime was speaking…
When almost 5 million Iraqis die of starvation due to sanctions and war, the mod-Muslim remains quiet about that, but is extremely appalled, distressed and weeping over the 3,000 dead in WTC…After all, image is everything…
When a war is launched against Afghanistan and the world joins hands to condemn the war and stop it, when thousands of Muslims die being executed, bombed, locked in airtight containers to suffocate, he doesn’t say a word, but is an avid Osama and Taliban hater, despite the fact that neither Osama’s nor the Taliban’s hand in matter has ever been proven…But he must side with ‘justice’ and ‘freedom’, after all, image is everything…
The reason that Jews have been so succesful is that unlike the treacherous mod-Muslims in the Ummah who seek to placate the Kafir rather than say or do what is right…The Jews on the other hand speak unanimously on every issue, and having the backing of America doesn’t hurt either…
The Ummah is rife with these mod-Muslims, who would speak against the Muslims themselves rather than say what wrong is being committed against the Muslims…And when someone raises the issue of Islam and Muslims being under attack, these same mod-Muslims want ot shut him up because he is giving a bad image of them…They would rather that all Muslims who speak and act for Muslims shut up rather than do something…
It is these kinds of Muslims that America wants to tap into and make them the Ummah’s leaders on the basis of their ‘open’ minded views, despite the fact that those ‘open’ minded views are what’s leading the demise of the Ummah…
As long as these mod-Muslims continue to represent the Muslims, the Muslims will never be taken seriously…They find more wrong with what Muslims do and are the Muslim’s biggest huirdle to achieving unity, because they are more concerned with image rather than the act itself…
As long as we have Muslims who are afraid to speak out on behalf of Muslims fearlessly, we would always be in this situation…The Jews have pseakers who act with impunity, killing Muslims, building walls, attacking innocents and refugees, all with the silence of mod-Muslims…
While whenever the Muslims do anything in self-defense, the mod-Muslims, alongwith the Kuffar are at the Muslims’ throats, becoming the Kuffar’s donkeys…
So Mama, the answer to your question is, our greatest liability are mod-Muslims who do nothing…Not even verbally or digitally…
Thank you all for your replies. Just a couple of things I'd like to add -
To Ms. Muslim Queen, I think you misunderstood about the "judge and jury" bit. It was not my intention to tell anyone how to live. But rather to think about more constructive ways to resolve "muslim issues" and I was asking the "hardliners" to comment on this. I was not trying to say that Muslims should "be like" Jews, only that Jews have had so much success in attaining their goals because they have educated themselves and attained positions of power. And that maybe more Muslims should take this approach. Ie., would the media and government here be so very "pro-Israel" if there were more Muslim politicians and media moguls? This isnt something that should take "generations" to accomplish. I've said before in this thread - I DO know that there are injustices against Muslims and that the Jewish get away with much more than the Muslims do. But, again, that is due to the large number of influenial Jewish people in positions of power. And yes, even with "all their education", the typical American sees little of the "typical muslim". Muslims here keep to themselves basically so they are somewhat of a mystery. THere are exceptions of course, I'm talking about the majority here. So what the typical westerner sees MOSTLY is the reporting on Al-Quaeda, suicide attacks etc. I have to say that the majority of people (the ones I know anyway) are open to learning about Islaam, what is it etc. But sadly the curiosity is more due to an attempt at understanding why a "religion" would drive people like OBL and the suicide bombers.
I dont think that my questions here are either convoluted or unclear as to "the big picture". I would simply like to see radical muslims take a more constructive avenue of attaining their goals... I do not think its a fairy-tale wish. It doesnt take "generations" to educate one youth and to put him/her into a public office. Or to attain a high-level position within a reputable media outlet.
And please dont think that I am unsympathetic to the problems that Muslims face. It is because I am sympathetic that I am making these observations and posing these questions to you. It wasnt my intention to get into who did what to who or who is more evil. That isnt constructive and gets us nowhere.
Although I’m sure its all done in vain , but like they say. Any goes to win an aurgument. Wala Alam