UN backs gay rights for first time ever

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

^ Homosexuals are human being - unless their actions harm another person they have a right to live.

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

Thats why you keep failing here. We are not convinced because you dont give any explanation as to WHY it is a crime. You simply saying it does not make it so.

Sir, you are calling an entire community of people criminals without giving any logical reason why. Please, you have a mind, that was given to you by Allah SWT to think with. One sentence replies in which you make nonsensical claims about an entire people without any thought or reason is against the very nature of Islam, that makes it incumbent upon us to use logic and reasoning to determine right and wrong.

Calling others criminals unjustly itself is a crime. And in Islam, it is shirk to accuse others without reason.

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

if its a crime that's it end of discussion, why you going into discussion of oh it not as bad as murder? pointless direction you taking subject into don't you think.

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

red

  1. human beings have the natural instinct to procreate now question is how they will satisfy this procreation instinct. As muslim we live by halal and haram so example of food some things forbidden for us to eat and also in procreation is by marriage and the male and female relation this halal. Now if you choose to live by non islam secualr laws then everything is halal for you even to the level some european countries they say it legal to procreate with animals they say your freedom no problem go ahead.

  2. this very simple if a land makes something legal people will do it such as drink alcohol it legal in many european countries and they have many problem because of it, if it illegal people scared to do it espeially if harsh punishment in place.

  3. was answered in previous post read that answer again.

finally it is good you don't want to resort to personal insults because your previous post was exactly that.

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

Dear Javed bhai,

The question that I'd really like you to answer is:

1 - At what point did you CHOOSE to be attracted to women - you're implying sexual attraction is a choice - in which case you surely must remember when you made this life altering decision.

This is a simple recall question - you can say you don't recall - or you do recall.

Your answer was:

  1. human beings have the natural instinct to procreate now question is how they will satisfy this procreation instinct. As muslim we live by halal and haram so example of food some things forbidden for us to eat and also in procreation is by marriage and the male and female relation this halal. Now if you choose to live by non islam secualr laws then everything is halal for you even to the level some european countries they say it legal to procreate with animals they say your freedom no problem go ahead.

Which in no way addresses the question I asked.

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

red bhai

as previously said the halal way is to marry woman and my viewpoint has been channeled in this way alhamdulilah because i lived in muslim household and given muslim culture.

there is hadith i read from college days ""The likeness of a righteous friend and an evil friend, is the likeness of a (musk) perfume seller and a blacksmith. As for the perfume seller, he may either bestow something on you, or you may purchase something from him, or you may benefit from his sweet smell. And as for the blacksmith, he may either burn your clothes, or you may be exposed to his awful smell."
[Bukhari and Muslim]

my understanding of this is meaning the people who are your friends or the people you hang around with, will mold you and your viewpoint so the person who hangs around blacksmith will get black marks the person who hangs around perfumist will smell of nice smell. So if my friends are drug dealers or womanizers don't you think it will influence me? if i hang with atheists or hardcore capitalists don't you think they will influence me no god and to believe secularism is the best and homosexuality great? if my friends are practicing muslims don't you think they will influence my viewpoint on the world? answer is yes to all.

to accept homosexual relationship this thinking makes me vomit that's how disgusting this idea is for me but not because i personally find it repulsive but no1 reason being islam forbids this behavior. At same time i will not inflict violence or deny any rights on this homosexual persons because they innocent until found guilty and also because not my job it job of courts and state i.e islamic state.

Based on your comments alone you view homosexuality as normal and acceptable to you that's the difference you don't view from halal haram viewpoint because if you did you would not be making such comments. Again based on just the comments you made it seems you have chosen secularism as the basis for your viewpoint to the level you even would promote homosexuality now tell me if i am right or wrong on this point and if i am wrong back it up with clear cut refutation so no one can be confused on this accusation.

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

It really is a simple question Javed sahib. At what point did you choose to be attracted to females? I mean, a simpe answer would suffice, instead of a complete thesis.

Now just so we are clear, you can be friends with whom ever you like, but that doesnt change reality. A person is Gay, and born that way regardless of whther you hang around them or not. Your entire premise here is flawed. Just as an example, lets say you refused t be friends with a group of pediatricians, who would otherwsie influence you to believe that many children are born with congenital abnormalities, does that mean that by not being friends with them, congenital abnormalities no longer exist? Silly analogy, but your point was silly to begin with.
Secondly, people who believe homosexuals have rights, and are entitled to respect and dignity, are also practicing Muslims, Christians, jews, Hindus or other. You display this hauty and arrogant attitude as if somehow your upbringing was Islamic, and everyone that doesnt think like you is somehow deviant. For my part, I was raised in MUSLIM household where we emphasized humanity, and justice, and the very basic principles on what Islam is based. Your Islamic credentials arent strengthened by wanting to stone a homosexual to death, it just makes you sound barbaric.

People like me, and Red from Lahore believe in Halal and Haraam. All humans whether Muslims or Atheists aspire to live a life free of that we consider Haram, and full of that which we consider Halal. The difference is in what we define to be Halal and Haram. The debate isnt over whether there is halal and Haram, good and evil, but what it is that can actually be called Halal or Haram. In our interpretation, and I think one most in line with Islamic principles, logic and justice, Homosexuality is not a sin, its simply a way someone is born.

Now you may not like this interpretation, but you have no insight on the mind of god. Your job isnt to say your right, its to convince us your interpretation is right. So far you have failed.
If you arent convinced of our interpretation, thats no ones concern, but as history as shown, people like you can only stand in the way of progress, only but for a short period of time. Eventually, people realize the truth and roll right over you.

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

Thankyou for your reply javed bhai. So have still not answered the question I asked. But I hope you at least did ask the question in your head - that you cannot write down the answer in text - is of course your choice.

You are right in saying that depending on who you hang out with - your views would change. However if you're implying by this that a person who hangs out with homosexuals will commit homosexual acts - I think that is quite far fetched and unrealistic - why? because homosexuals tend to not identify themselves as homosexuals and are in the "closet" - only they know they're homosexual - most of their friends and relatives are heterosexual - and hanging out with them clearly does not make them homosexual. So in terms of influencing opinions - the people who you hang out with - would make a difference. But in terms of actions - especially sexuality - I don't think its as simple as hanging out with homosexuals will make you homosexual - as the opposite is clearly not the case.

Your vomiting at the thought of homosexual behavior is understandable given the biased discourse on the topic.

You mention though that you won't deny any homosexual person any right until found guilty. Found guilty of what exactly? Guilty of fornication with another homosexual? If they are found guilty of the act - what punishment would you like to see implemented?

Javed bhai - you mentioned earlier that punishment for homosexuals found guilty should be the job of the courts - state - Islamic state. As of today - homosexuality - the act - is punishable by death. Would you be okay with a homosexual couple - found guilty of intercourse - to be put to death?

You assume that I am secular. You are absolutely right. I am secular - because I cannot bear the thought of an Islamic State in Pakistan. In Pakistan we don't have Muslims - we have Sunni - Deoband, Sunni Bareilve, Sunni (other schools of thought), Shia, Ahmedi, Bahai, Hindu, Christians etc. There is no way that we can have an Islamic State in this country that would be acceptable to all sects. This is why I am secular. The Taliban perhaps a very different idea of an Islamic State than you have - where women don't go to school, where you must keep a bear, where women must be more or less totally covered etc. The point is that we can't have everyone agree on the type of Islamic State Pakistan should be. Hence the idea of establishing an Islamic State should be abandoned.

We need a state which treats every citizen equally - and makes laws on the principal that what does not harm another citizen of the state is permissible.

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

Sir Idea of establishing Islamic state can't be abandoned Islamic State will be established and crimes like Homosexuality will no be tolerated at all we will not make any establish so called Secular state the state of kufr crime which are in Islam will remain crimes and any one who will try to change them will see the worse results possible

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

^ This Islamic State you want to establish - will it be democratically made i.e. people vote for MMA type parties - they gain majority and implement Islamaic state. Or through force?

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

It can come through Revolution too

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

Like the one in Iran? I assume you arent Shia, but what would you do if the revolution brought in a system like the one that the Taliban espouse? Or perhaps a Shia revolution like the one in Iran? How do you know your revolution will bring in the system you want?

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

Sir we know how it will come but some secular cowards are so afraid which makes me laugh because they don't want to leave their corrupt lifestyle in which they break every law of ALLAH and his RASOOL SAW and call it liberation but if you want continue this evil than you should be afraid

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

Yes, I do.

[quote]

A slippery slope would be the govt starting with Homosexuals, then continuing to regulate what some two bit mullah deems to be improper sexual relations between a man and a woman, then even a married man and woman. Where does it end?

[/quote]

The gradient of that slope is strictly defined by Islam.

[quote]

Are you comfortable with the Govt spying on you in your bedroom? If you are, then Homosexuals are the least of your problem.
[/QUOTE]

Who said anything about spying? Is Gay rights about homosexuals being allowed to have illicit relations in secret?

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

People seriously can't remember their youth?

In my case, I can certainly remember NOT being attracted to females. Dunno when it happened, but I can wager that a lot of it has to do with environmental conditioning and expectation. Little things...from seeing other people interact, to finally "understanding" the comedy of elmer fudd being kissed by bugs bunny. I honestly believe bi-sexuality is perhaps a natural, animal state. Is the choice of man vs woman any more different than fat vs skinny?

In other words, imho, choice being a factor is being discounted for political reasons...

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

WHAT?

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

What, what? I'm suggesting that left to our own devices, without the good word of Allah to guide us, we're no more than animals. Hell, most teenagers now days are probably *auto*sexuals...it's all about stimulus. All this talk of genetics seems rather haughty.....

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

Your a very confused and ignorant person. I hope that with education and study, you will grow up, but you really are very immature at this point.

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

LOL... Your funny.

I am not a bisexual, and never have been. I remember always being straight. In fact I had a crush on my First grade teacher, a WOMAN, when I was 6 years old. As a heterosexual, I and all other heterosexuals have an inherent and instinctive attraction to women. Its not something I consciously have to remind myself of, I can look at a women and instantly know whether she is attractive, at least to me.
I, along with other heterosexuals can look at a man and judge whether he is good looking or not, but my assessment is not based on any instinctive attraction as with females, but is instead based on what is popularly understood to be a good looking male. So I assume someone who looms like Harrison Ford, or Brad Pitt, is probably good looking. And its pretty much the same for women. They can see a woman and say whether she is good looking, but its based on a popular understanding of what features are attractive, not on any instinctive appreciation of the female face.

In homosexuals however, they are attracted to men the same way as a straight woman would be. They have an instinctive inborn attraction to features of the male face and body, and vice versa with Lesbians.

There is no such thing as AutoSexuals. Your mind is programmed to be attracted to men, women, or both. No one chooses how their minds are programmed, its inborn.

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Re: UN backs gay rights for first time ever

LOL... So please enlighten me, how is the govt NOT getting involved in sexuality a slippery slope? Will people suddenly start having sex with dogs and cats if the govt isnt on watch? I mean seriously, where is the slippery slope there?

The slippery slope is defined by Islam? What does that mean? Where does Islam define what wll happen if the govt ISNT regulating peoples sex lives?

Well your the one who said this is all about sex right? How would the govt regulate peoples sex lives without being in their room while their having it? If that is all it is to you, then the only way to regulate how people are having sex, and with whom is to spy on them... And you yourself said the govt should regulate peoples personal lives. If thats the case, then that included how and with whom your having sex.

But of course, this isnt about sex, its about much more right? Obviously, you cannot regulate how people have sex, homosexual or otherwise, but its not about that. So its good you have finally come to understand that point.