Ulema and Political Guidance

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
21

Agree with first point. The leader needs to above-average in both spheres of religion and politics.

On your seond point, well if the people fund the madrasshs, then shouldn't the people check on how their charity is getting spent. Which brings me back to my point, reform starts with the character of people not institutions. Institutions are characterless faces of the society. Its the people from the society which give it a face. Pakistani's need a lot of character building.

22

Re: Ulema and Political Guidance

If God intended to create robots who pray at the time and then go about worldly business in a mechanical manner, HE would have done so.

23

Icono, this is the kind of logic that is taking muslims away from path of truth and righteousness. Ulema are the alims, their opinion on every subject is important. After all I have heard it said that Islam is a way of life. So why can't your imam give opinion on whether a limited amount of animal cruelty be allowed for medical research and testing? Perhaps, mulim leadership needs to evolve in demanding that a Bismillah should be uttered before using an animal in lab testing. It is not ulema should not give an opinion on non-religious subjects, it is that they should acquire knowledge outside of religion and give opinions that interprete Islam in todays evolving world.

24

f the ambiguous terms like "Alim". Such esptupeed word belongs to the cave age.

Today and perhaps for the last 500 years, we as human beings have been living in the "AGE of SPECIALIZATION".

Why? because the HUMAN intellect has grown to a level that someone needs lifetime of work to figure one tiny aspect of a given field.

These days we have "specialists" who mostly get "formal" training AND "on the job" internship, then they get CERTIFIED and then they are considered specialists.

If a bearded man in the mosque wants to be a "specialist" then he must show his competency before we as a society accept him to be such.

Icono said it right that Mullahs are not allowed to give opinions in many fields.

Why? because WE the people would laugh at them.

However

We the people have given up OUR control on the following important specialized fields.

  1. System of government
    --- that allows country to learn from other countries and improve the governance

  2. System of economy
    --- that allows a country to constantly update their economic model to match with the modern demands.

  3. System of global relationship:
    ----- that allows a country to survive in today's global village.

  4. System of education
    --- that allows a country to prepare the next generation that makes the country prosperous and stable.

It is us the Pakistanis who have allowed Mullahs and other mafiosos to take over the reigns in the fields listed above.

Look how we are destroying ourselves by letting NON-specialists to run these important fields.

A -- System of governance.
Year in and year out, we elect our "executive branch" who have ZERO experience.

BB, ZAB, Zardari, Altaf, Imran, Qazi etc. have not run even a small city government of Cheecha watni, and yet we the Pakistani people let their BAD vision to lead our system of government of the WHOLE of Pakistan.

We never demand or may be ask Imran, Altaf, or Zardari, keh Sahib zara mehrabani farmayeen aur pehlay ja ker ek small city ki government to run kerain. Phir hum aapko chance daingay Mulk ko chalanay kay leeay.

And guess what? the result have been catastrophic for our system of government with untold atrocities and resulting military takeovers.

B -- System of Economy.
Modern economy is very very complicated and it is changing at a break neck speed. And yet many of us go to economically-donkey Mullahs, and equally ignorant politicians and let them develop policies that impact our tax structure, our industry, and our exports.

C -- System of Global relationships

Today no country can survive in isolation. China, Japan, South Korea, Singapore, India are clear examples that a country must be connected positively in the global structure. Otherwise the country becomes very quickly a basket case even if it has natural resources (read Iran).

And yet we allow third rate Mullahs, politikos, and petty journalists to grab our noses and move us around like little kids.

The result has been horrible for Pakistan's global role.

D-- System of education

I wanted to discuss this as the last point, because it is the MOST important point that perhaps drives ALL other fields being discussed here.

And guess what, we the Pak people have willingly allowed bekar Mullahs to take over a large portion of our school system.

Even the school that are not run by Mullahs, are packed with mental-rubbish that is destroying our youth and turning them into anti-global, caveman Jihadis.

Our students care more about What Amreeka and Mossad is doing,

And the same students give a damn to what Pakistanis THEMSELVES are doing to their own country.

Our students are devoid of innovative thinking, they lack the deep desire to learn about the universe, and pathetically ignorant of the needs of our country so that our beautiful country could become prosperous and peaceful.

It is time that we take the reigns of these fields in OUR OWN hands, and DONOT let a 2-bit Mullah in the guise of an Alim to give any opinion.

It is time, we respect and follow the SPECIALISTS (even Christians, JEWS, HINDUS, etc. ) to guide us in the right direction aka Sirat e mustaqeem.

Then only then, our country will be back on its feet, and our people will live in peace and harmony, and we will not be walking around with a begging bowl in our hands.

Amen.

25

Geopolitics and society require no particular specialization, unless it ages into the realm of history. For the most part, it is simply a matter of discussing contemporary affairs.

26

This is the argument being successfully used by the primitive tribal societies in order to make sure that they remain????????????????????

Primitive tribal societies.

Man! you won't trust your family member's heart health to Mullah,

And yet

you are oh so willing to put our beautiful country's health in the hands of dimwit tribal primitives.

Oh bhai, modern geopolitics and society development for Pakistan is 170 million times (if not more) complicated than your family member's health.

And yet you so careless about it.

Wah bhai wah.

Shabash. jeetay raho.

Complete the shair (Poetry Game)
27

You need to relax; Mullahs have no real political power nor are they influential in the state apratus responsible for foreign policy. At best, they echo what conservative Pakistani laymen hold to be true anyway...

Never mind the Mullah, why is Tom Friedman or Salman Rushdie allowed to speak on geopolitical events? They're both bricks on such matters...yet oh so respected.

Celebrity pics
28

[quote="picoico, post:66, topic:212101"]

You need to relax; Mullahs have no real political power nor are they influential in the state apratus responsible for foreign policy. At best, they echo what conservative Pakistani laymen hold to be true anyway...

QUOTE]

Are you tlking about Pakistan or some other country? Man, you have a drole sense of humour.

29

Depends on how juvenile your sense of humor is.

Mullahs are USED, they do not use. In any case, I don't see Mullahs dictating Pak foreign policy, at least no further than their views that align with either the Pakistani establishment.

30

I agree with the underlined part of your post.

And one reason why people look at the clergy is that the "relatively" more liberal army rulers and politicians have done a poor job of running the government. This happened in Iran where ordinary Iranians thought of Khumeini and other clergy as their saviors. But they don't realize that this may worsen the situation.

31

Clergy are a reality and they won't be wiped out.

I wish that everyone in Pakistan be it conservative, liberal, athiest or whatever, works for the country. Jews have shown that this can be done, why can't Pakistanis do it.

32

Re: Ulema and Political Guidance

^work for what end? economics, deen, liberalism, extremism, defence, offence???

it takes a major proportion of populous working togather on a shared and understood vision to make progress. its no good blaming the ulema, the mullahs alone

if your major worry is terror related then you can distribute more blame on pakistans unislamic pretenders rather then the ulema.

i dont see the ulema blocking pakistans route to prosperity at all

heck pakistan is a country where many people find the concept of work demeaning!

Timepass January 2015 (Naya Saal, Purani Dua)
33

Re: Ulema and Political Guidance

btw regarding ulema and politics, although they are not heavilly involved in real politics, pakistan as a nation is politically very active. theres upto 20 hours (if not more) of political talkshows alone per day. how can anyone suggest one section of the community stays out?

34

Work to bring economic prosperity, equality, social justice, health care, education to each and every citizen of Pakistan.

I agree with you that its preposterous to blame ulema for ills of society which has been governed all along by moderates, but, what i am trying to say that the alternate to present breed of rulers is not clergy, which many people think and which they present themselves as.

35

Re: Ulema and Political Guidance

Ulema's responsibility is to provide spiritual leadership to people, with leadership comes politics. In HEALTHY Islamic society politics and religion are mutually inclusive.

Having said that, We are in a mess because both our Ulemas & Politicians are not qualified (not in sense of University degrees) for the roles they are playing or supposed to be playing in Pakistani society. Their incompetency in their fields brings the bad name on religion-politics relationship and we start thinking that religion should not be part of politics.

36

Re: Ulema and Political Guidance

^ agreed

and since we are a nation of incompetent, greedy people, we should not criticize a particular section of the society.

37

True. General terms like "Ulema" or "scholars" should be replaced with

"Spiritual scholars" or "religious scholars"

in contrast with

"political scholars"
"military scholars"
"health/medicine scholars"
"engineering scholars".

then each of these classes of scholars should mind their own field and not try to put their half @rse opinions in someone else's SPECIALIZED field.

Spiritual scholars should be allowed to use the mosque ONLY for the propagation of spirituality, faith etc.

If any spiritual scholar corrupts his duty, and starts becoming a deformed and bhondi form of CNN/FOX then he should be told politely to change his ways. If he doesn't listen, then he should be kicked out of the mosque.

We did the same to our community's mosque. After changing few Mullahs, things are going really great. Our mosque has no more politics, just spiritual healing.

And where the heck is that HEALTHY Islamists's society? on the moon or mars?

Go back and check out the true history, and you will find that whenever religion was mixed with politics, then the religion became CORRUPT.

Three of our four Khalifa Rashid rah were murdered ON THE JOB, because they mixed religion with politics. And the Islamists still refuse to learn.

If Khalifa Rashideen had that kind of tumultuous history, then the ordinary mortals had no chance whatsoever.

No wonder the Arab and non-Arab Muslim rulers bathed in the blood of their own brothers and sisters and fathers until they were all overthrown by the non-Mullah governments from Europe.

Similarly the false-religiosity minded Europeans bathed in the the blood of their own kin, until they were all thrown away by the secular European governments.

Remember!

When you mix religion and politics -- you lose both.

Na khuda he mila na wisale sanam.
Na uthar key rahay no ithar kay rahay.
Na religion he raha, aur politics be mar gaeey.

Universe is finite or infinite?
38

Re: Ulema and Political Guidance

I don't think there is even room for an 'Aalim' in Islam. There is no 'professional' specialist of all Islamic jurisprudence. ANYONE can lead the prayers in mosques and only those specialized in relevant areas of Islamic Laws can provide guidance in worldly matters. Theoretically, the head of state should have reasonable knowledge of Islamic laws and earlier in the days used to lead the major prayers too. We do not have a Pope or organised church like system for that reason.

Mosques were a place for people around the area to gather, remind themselves of the God looking at our deeds and consult each other on daily matters.

Le To Kha Lay Motti :D
39

That's where the root of all Islamist evil is.

Perhaps in the old days, Islam as a religion was supposed to be egalitarian and Mullah-less type of practices.

However as the time went on, the very strength of Islam was turned on its head.

Thus "anyone can lead the prayer" attitude took away the seriousness and standardization and supreme emphasis on the proper education of a prayer leader.

Here is a simple question!

Do you every think that if

someone is having a heart transplant, will say, Oh anyone can lead the transplant procedure.

or

you are getting your house built, and you will say, I am gonna grab a Joe-six pack from the street and ask him to build my house.

Will you? GUESS NOT!

Thus when it comes to our body, and our house, we run for the experts and demand that they have latest American education, and we pay them BIG BUCS.

But when it comes to one of the most important aspects of our lives, i.e. our spiritual health, we have this shameless, or perhaps childish attitude that "anyone can lead the spiritual practices, anyone can lead the meditation". Then these low-class madrassah graduates from local and saudi sham-so-called universities are the guys ready to lead the prayers. and thus corrupting the whole religion.

And the results have been catastrophic for our religious practices. Our mosques and madrassahs have been hijacked by the extremists, and
we lost our most sacred places i.e. mosques to some 2-bit show-baz drama-baz shady characters.

Sad thing is that we see the hijacking of our mosques,
we see the death and destruction coming out of our sacred places,
and still
we can parrotting, "anyone can lead......., anyone can lead ...."

Afsos sad afsos!

40

Re: Ulema and Political Guidance

^ Leading a prayer is not as technical as a heart surgery or building a house. ANYONE with a basic knowledge of offering prayers can do it. I am not talking about leading the religious community or giving out sermons. I am just saying we do not need a fixed person to be the imam of a local mosque to lead the daily prayers.

This is how it went in our local small mosque. People would gather and one would lead the prayers. People normally requested someone to lead it and it was never a fixed person.