U.S Marine Kills wounded Iraqi Prisoner

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*Originally posted by myvoice: *

I don't disagree that as a general principle of "civilized" warfare, you don't shoot wounded prisoners. When the dead, dieing and living enemy are often booby trapped with explosives designed to be used to kill the capturers things get tricky. The guy on the ground who just saw his buddy blown up by a booby trapped wounded insurgent has got to make a split second decision whether the wounded insurgent he's facing is also booby trapped............. Anyone who doesn't think a soldier could snap or make a wrong split second decision in this environment just plain doesn't have a clue about the reality of combat.
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I think you need to watch the video again and then tell me about split second decisions, booby traps and his buddies being blown up. I understand your point of view, however in this case no matter how much adrenaline was gushing through the Marines body and no matter how much pumped up he was he made the wrong "split second" decision. As far as reality of combat is concerned since you seem to know more about that reality why dont you fill us in and justify the marines action blame it on booby traps and yada yada yada. Did you serve in Iraq? or Afghanistan?

Killing wounded prisoners and beheading innocent people (that were told on number of occasions to leave Iraq but stayed at their will )is not ok.

I posted this in Falluja thread but here it is.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/17/opinion/17press.html

anover, N.H. — The textbook urban assault on Falluja reflected well on the dedication, training and equipment of the American military. Unfortunately, it has not brought the United States appreciably closer to achieving its political objectives in Iraq. In fact, history suggests that America has slim hopes of defeating the insurgency, and that our best chance for “success” depends on redefining what we would consider a victory.
American troops killed as many as 1,000 insurgents in Falluja and seized stocks of weapons and ammunition. But neither guns nor dedicated fighters are scarce in Iraq. The Pentagon estimates the number of hard-core enemy fighters to be roughly 10,000 (20,000 if active sympathizers and covert accomplices are included). And Iraq is awash in assault rifles, ammunition, rocket-propelled grenades and explosives - the lifeblood of insurgency. Most troubling, the guerrillas enjoy support from a sizable fraction of the population in the Sunni heartland.
While major operations like the attack on Falluja create the appearance of progress, over the last 60 years major powers have learned repeatedly that there is virtually no connection between seizing territory and defeating an insurgency. Insurgents do not seek victory on the battlefield.
The first rule of insurgency is to avoid large-scale battles with the government; guerrillas attack on their own timetable against civilians and isolated military units. Shrewd insurgents concede territory, melt away when enemy units approach in force, and then snipe, kidnap and bomb from the shadows. It was no surprise that the insurgents started isolated actions in Mosul, Samarra and other cities as soon as the attack on Falluja began.
If seizing cities was the key to success in a counterinsurgency, one might have expected a French victory after the battle of Algiers in 1957, an American victory after the defeat of North Vietnamese and Vietcong forces in Hue in 1968, and a Russian victory over the Chechens after the retaking of Grozny in 1995. Instead, the French and Americans lost, and the war in Chechnya drags on.
As T. E. Lawrence famously described it, fighting rebels is “like eating soup with a knife.” Guerrillas do not depend on vulnerable lines of supply and communication, so counterinsurgents must target them directly, and even a few thousand armed guerrillas can create chaos in a country of tens of millions. Guerrillas camouflage themselves among the population; frequently the only way to distinguish an insurgent from a civilian is when he (or she) opens fire.
This is why the history of counterinsurgency warfare is a tale of failure. Since World War II, powerful armies have fought seven major counterinsurgency wars: France in Indochina from 1945 to 1954, the British in Malaya from 1948 to 1960, the French in Algeria in the 1950’s, the United States in Vietnam, the Soviet Union in Afghanistan, Israel in the occupied territories and Russia in Chechnya. Of these seven, four were outright failures, two grind on with little hope of success, and only one - the British effort in Malaya - was a clear success.
Many counterinsurgency theorists have tried to model operations on the British effort in Malaya, particularly the emphasis on winning hearts and minds of the local population through public improvements. They have not succeeded. Victory in Malaysia, it appears in retrospect, had less to do with British tactical innovations than with the weaknesses and isolation of the insurgents. The guerrillas were not ethnic Malays; they were recruited almost exclusively from an isolated group of Chinese refugees. The guerrillas never gained the support of a sizable share of the Malaysians. Nevertheless, it took the British 12 years to defeat them, and London ended up granting independence to the colony in the midst of the rebellion.
Paradoxically, it is only some weaker countries that have succeeded in suppressing rebellions, albeit by unleashing tremendous brutality against the civilian population. This is the approach that Guatemala adopted in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s to crush a growing communist insurgency in the countryside. Villages were wiped out in a campaign that killed about 200,000 people and made an equal number refugees. Hafez al-Assad of Syria succeeded with a similarly murderous approach when he crushed the Muslim Brotherhood rebellion in 1982, as did Saddam Hussein when he defeated the Shiite uprising in southern Iraq after the Persian Gulf war in 1991.
America, of course, is not willing to contemplate this level of violence in Iraq. Furthermore, even unrestrained brutality does not guarantee success. The Soviet Union killed more than a million people in Afghanistan, but never broke the will of the insurgents.
Some will insist that the American commanders have a more refined strategy for defeating the insurgency in Iraq. They plan to rely increasingly on Iraqi forces, trained by our military, who will have greater legitimacy with the population and whose knowledge of the language, culture and terrain will allow them to do a better job policing the country.
There is logic to this approach, but it is not new. Hundreds of thousands of local troops fought alongside the French in Algeria and Indochina. The Soviets set up a puppet government in Afghanistan. And, of course, the American policy of “Vietnamization” did not prevent the collapse of the South Vietnamese government after United States forces withdrew from the country. In all of these cases, the local forces were corrupt and inefficient and had dubious loyalty to the occupier. Do we really expect more from the weak government in Baghdad?
As long as the insurgency rages, it is unlikely that America will achieve the political goals it set for itself - a unified, democratic Iraq as the first building block in the broader democratization of the Middle East. In fact, we must now worry about the emergence of an Iraqi government dominated by anti-Western jihadist groups, or a perpetual civil war among the Sunni, Shiite and Kurdish communities that will kill millions and create fertile ground for terrorist groups like Al Qaeda to recruit, train and plan.
Given these horrific possibilities, perhaps we should set our goals more realistically, and focus on the achievable. Some have suggested that we let Iraq divide itself into independent Sunni, Shiite and Kurdish countries. This might avert a prolonged, violent struggle for control of the central government after the United States withdraws. Still, history - most recently that of Yugoslavia - suggests that partition is a risky, bloody business. Millions of people would be forced from their homes, and many would not leave without a fight. Furthermore, the mini-countries carved out of Iraq may be swallowed by their larger neighbors; the Shiite area would be very attractive to Iran.
A second distasteful alternative is to support the consolidation of power in the hands of a new secular strongman. This may bring peace of a sort, but it would be a bitter result for the Iraqi people after their brief taste of freedom. Saddam Hussein was able to keep his politically, ethnically and religiously divided state together only through nearly constant repression; it seems unlikely that any successor could rule with a velvet glove.
These are depressing prospects. The fact that we must consider them underscores the caution that should be employed before deciding to go to war. Still, given where we stand today, if the United States can find a way to withdraw most of its troops over the next several years and leave behind an Iraq that is not in a civil war, that is not a haven for Al Qaeda and is not an immediate threat to its neighbors, history may well record it as an odds-defying success.

Daryl G. Press and Benjamin Valentino are professors of government at Dartmouth

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Verizon: *

I think you need to watch the video again and then tell me about split second decisions, booby traps and his buddies being blown up. I understand your point of view, however in this case no matter how much adrenaline was gushing through the Marines body and no matter how much pumped up he was he made the wrong "split second" decision. As far as reality of combat is concerned since you seem to know more about that reality why dont you fill us in and justify the marines action blame it on booby traps and yada yada yada. Did you serve in Iraq? or Afghanistan?

Killing wounded prisoners and beheading innocent people (that were told on number of occasions to leave Iraq but stayed at their will )is not ok.
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Regardless of whether it was the right or wrong split second decision judged by 20/20 hindsight, neither you nor I are in a position to judge this soldier. Further, the effort to make this sound like a policy advanced and condoned by the US military of murdering wounded insurgents in cold blood is ludicrous.

And your attempt to equate in any way this incident with beheading is warped thinking. The kidnappings and videotaped beheadings are well planned political statements that are carefully staged and choreographed by the thugs who do them. This soldier acted in the heat of battle relying upon adrenaline and the survival instinct to make a split second decision.

[QUOTE]
Regardless of whether it was the right or wrong split second decision judged by 20/20 hindsight, neither you nor I are in a position to judge this soldier. Further, the effort to make this sound like a policy advanced and condoned by the US military of murdering wounded insurgents in cold blood is ludicrous.
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Where did you get the idea that it was U.S policy? I did not say that it was U.S policy to kill wounded insurgents.

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And your attempt to equate in any way this incident with beheading is warped thinking. The kidnappings and videotaped beheadings are well planned political statements that are carefully staged and choreographed by the thugs who do them. This soldier acted in the heat of battle relying upon adrenaline and the survival instinct to make a split second decision.
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Well I did not attempt to equate in any way that beheading and killing were one and the same (and I do know about political statements and well choreographed blah blah) However for you to keep telling me and justifying about soldier and killing in the heat of battle is warped thinking in by itself.
If you see the video (which I urge you to) you will see that there was no heated battle going on, the marines walked in (usually in a heated battle there is chaos, smoke and screaming just a few descriptors) one said hey this guy is still alive and pretending to be dead, the marine shot and killed and said "well he is dead now". That is not heated battle myvoice that is cold blooded killing, mind you this same marine was shot (which is normal in a battle to exchange fire between the good guys and the bad guys) the day before. I sincerely believe that this marine did this in anger and hate. BTW If this marine would have shot the prisoner because the prisoner was screaming in pain or basically "mercy killing", I would have had no problems with that.

Nobody should doubt this incident to be another war crime commited by the US. HRW: Felluce Execution is a War Crime and perhaps incidents such as these have been carried out throughout Iraq and we may never get to know about them. Of course the US marines will never admit to officially sanctioning these type of executions but slowly and surely we will get to hear about many other incidents.

VZ,

Pardon me, but your ignorance is showing.

First, the marine in question had been shot in the face the day before. Second, this same platoon of Marines had a man killed the day before by moving a boobie trapped body. Is that the "heat of the battle"?Somehow the stresses and exhaustion of fighting are not really registering with you. I personally think that the Marine was exhausted, hurt, drained, scared and pi$$ed off. That does not excuse the fact that he probably commited a war crime.

On the other hand he may well have thought that the insurgent was going for a grenade, ala Mazar-e-Sahirf in Afghanistan. Who knows? Boobie traps are not like bullets going off over your head. They go off when everything is quiet, and you least expect it. That is why the troops hate them. Boobie trapping bodies sort of cuts both ways. If the insurgents want to do this, they have to realize that their wounded will be approached with a hair trigger. I for one believe this kid should be cut some slack, but only to a point. What he did was probably a crime, but one that has some mitigating circumstances. I imagine that is the way the military will deal with this. It is possible that he should not have been medically claeared to go back into battle after being wounded the day before. Essentialy the behavior of the insurgents in Fallujah, probably starting with the hanging of burned bodies from a bridge, has pretty much sapped my sympathy for them.

The US has rounded up over a thousand captives in Fallujah. Obviously they aren't shooting all the prisoners, so anyone arguing that this is anything more than a pi$$ed off soldier will have a hard time proving it... Obviously the kid knew that they had a cameraman with them too. He certainly would not have done it in a preplanned way with a camera present. Perhaps you should look at "survival instinct", rather than "heat of battle"

i think its good..one less moslem terrorist to worry about :hick:

OG I posted this in the same thread yesterday, but I guess in the “heat of the keyboard wars on gupistan moment” You probably misread it. So call it my ignorance or MSNBC faulty reporting. Here it is I highlighted the comment about the marine being shot in the face. You say it is a different marine I say (based on MSNBC) it is the same guy.

Have at it.

VZ, what in the hell are you talking about? Reread my post, it says exactly what you highlighted.

And today the Iraqis are collecting bodies:

“Gagging amid the overpowering stench of rotting flesh, the Iraqis had to take special care because of the danger that insurgents booby-trapped some bodies with explosives. On one stoop, the Iraqis pushed over a corpse and a grenade rolled out of its pocket. The weapon didn’t detonate, but Marines quickly hurried the workers away.”
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-508482.php

VZ:
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that YOU looked at the soldier's conduct as indicative of US policy or widespread practice by US troops. Others have and will generalize a specific instance like this to the entire military.

Second, nothing I have said is "justifying" the soldier's conduct. I have specifically said that I don't think any of us typing from the comfort of our homes has the right to judge this soldier. That means judging him innocent or guilty.

I pretty much agree with OhioGuy with one notable exception. War crimes, like most other crimes, carry with them a required element of criminal intent. If this soldier did, in fact, mentally or psychologically snap, it is doubtful that he could have formed the mental intent necessary for his conduct to be considered a war crime.

OG, does that include wounded defenseless Iraqis executed by US marines?

MV,

I agree, and some of the dialog would support the fact that he thought it was a trap, and at some level he thought he was defending himself:

“He’s (expletive) faking he’s dead!”

“Yeah, he’s breathing,” another Marine is heard saying.

“He’s faking he’s (expletive) dead!” the first Marine says

Sites reported a Marine in the same unit had been killed just a day earlier when he tended to the booby-trapped dead body of an insurgent

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-506976.php

Aww, poor Dil.

Yes Dil, we are getting them all, every last one of them. Don't think we would hear the same sympathy from you if it was a Marine who was salughtered. You would launch into some crap about Palestine and Nagasaki, and American Indians, and root causes.

As I said, at some point you have to realize that the insurgents in Fallujah were grown men, and after the attack in April thay knew the risks. Do injured fighters deserve mercy? Yes. Am I crying a lot of croodile tears for them? NO. You can cry for me Dil.

OG MV I agree with you guys as well with one exception (and that will soon come out with the inquiry, plus I really have to get back to work or else I'll be joining the army for the third time :D) I think the marine was pissed off. Now why/ how he got pissed of that is where I agree with you guys (the environs and all).

Back to Euro and Yen Trading!!!!!!!!!!

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*Originally posted by Ohioguy: *
Aww, poor Dil.

Yes Dil, we are getting them all, every last one of them. Don't think we would hear the same sympathy from you if it was a Marine who was salughtered. You would launch into some crap about Palestine and Nagasaki, and American Indians, and root causes.

As I said, at some point you have to realize that the insurgents in Fallujah were grown men, and after the attack in April thay knew the risks. Do injured fighters deserve mercy? Yes. Am I crying a lot of croodile tears for them? NO. You can cry for me Dil.
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** A typical whining answer from you OG. **

FYI, the world is now realising the effects of the Totalitarian occupation of Iraq. Incidents such as the execution of the old man are very likely to be just the tip of the iceberg. Hopefuly the truth will come out.

What's the fuss about?
its called a pre-emtpive strike!
Now they should find the dead guy's family and pre-emtively strike them too cos God knows they may be upset
When they pre-emtively get the family they will need to pre-emtively get the neighbourhood then the country
Oh, we have already pre-emtively got the country!
where was it we were pre-emtively going to go next?

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*Originally posted by Dil he Pakistani: *
FYI, the world is now realising the effects of the Totalitarian occupation of Iraq. Incidents such as the execution of the old man are very likely to be just the tip of the iceberg. Hopefuly the truth will come out.
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What exactly are the effects of this "totalitarian" occupation? This one incident or the others that you hope will come out? Do you even know what totalitarian means? The marines are fighting against those who want to continue a totalitarian regime - an ideology that aims to control the religious, social and political life in all its aspects. The US is fighting to allow the Iraqis a chance at their own government. Going after those who are killing from mosques and preventing a centralized Iraqi government from forming to allow free elections is a fight against totalitarianism.

The circumstances remind me a while back when Israel was accused of attacking Pal ambulances, Israeli’s response was that the ambulances were being used by militants as transportation. Didn’t hear much about it after that as Israel showed a video of armed militants being transported around by the ambulances.

^ Did you also hear the bit where UN demanded an apology from Israel for saying there were militants transporting weapons when it was a stretcher being loaded into an ambulance? And with a red face Israel did just that. No wonder then you didnae hear much after the event eh?

http://international.news.designerz.com/israel-embarrassed-after-likely-blunder-in-un-ambulance-affair.html

After seeing that armed militants were allowed to be transported via ambulances I would say it’s the UN's job to prove that what it has aboard. As for the militants in Iraq, if they choose to surrender its best to strip naked and show you are not strapped with a bomb since that has been a re-occurring trick.