Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

Society Pakistan & World Affairs
41

Re: Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

Interesting to see they're not stopped.

There should be a zero-tolerance policy to any Pakistan bashing, which frankly is going on in full fledged view of the mods. Why discussions of Balochistan and Swat are even allowed in a thread on Kashmir is utterly beyond me.

42

Re: Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

you just proed my point. What you call the 'first war of independence' which was not non-violent did not succeed did it? Where as the non-violent method launched by Mahatma Gandhi won us freedom.

On your other point, people like Bhagat Singh are indeed glorified for their bravery, patriotism and sacrifice - not necessarily for achieving any results.

43

Re: Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

Somali pirates? then why did your government declare and admit kasab to be Pakistani?

@Sachaydino - sorry, I know you didn't want kasam matters to come distract this thread, I am just pointing out EarlyBird's inaccuracy

44

Re: Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

The point here is that Indians glorify violent movements for independence, and those who committed violence in the name of Indian independence etc.

Point is very simple. You glorify not only Mahatma Gandhi, but those who fought violently for Indian independence. Now The same society that glorifies its own violent revolution, is appalled and disgusted by the violence that is hurled on it, by those seeking independence from India..

That's what is hypocritical about you and your country. Violence is ok when it suits you, but its terrorism when the tables are turned.

Let me ask you this..

What does it say about a society that plays the victim card when it is attacked from outside, but completely ignores the THOUSANDS of victims of homegrown terrorsits. I mean, while you scream and shout for justice in Mumbai, you are mute when it comes to demanding justice for the THOUSANDS affected by the Anti Muslims riots, the Anti Sikh riots, and the Countless cases of innocent Kashmiris killed by your security forces. All of these people according to you were Indian citizens?!? Why the double standard?

45

Re: Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

India is under no obligation to conduct a plebiscite in Kashmir, or for that matter any rigma role that would lead, in any way, to the freedom of Kashmir. Go back to the UN resolutions and look them up.

Or for that matter, neither does India consider Kashmir 'disputed territory'. The Indian Constitution is very firm on its stance that Kashmir belongs to it in its 'entirety'.

Pakistan's position on Kashmir has been imperiled by its unilaterally- and illegally- giving away a piece of Kashmir- what it, in fact, considers to be disputed territory- to China. That stands in contravention to every international law, every convention or code of conduct on the resolution of disputed territories.

India faces a diabolical quandary - on the one hand, we consider Kashmiris to be our own citizens- and want to stop the shedding of their blood. On the other hand, given Jammu & Kashmir's strategic significance, its resource significance and its political significance, we cannot let things get out of hand. And the protests threaten not just the peace, and sanctity, of that region- but of national security as a whole.

We have shed blood for the last 60 years in defence of our country. We have done it when the situation was far more volatile and things far more rampant. When militancy came to a head and bombs ripped through our cities. What makes you think we are going to stop doin' it now?

46

Re: Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

Even though I readily admitted that India considers Kashmir its internal issue, I also declared that that particular position is irrelevant; India is not an isolationist nation which blindly disregards all other nations and does what it wants; as I said before, India is a willing member of that global organisation (the UN) which regards the question of Kashmir as an unsettled, internationally recognised dispute. Which is why it cannot carry through with the suggestion of the Indian member who wrote the following on this very thread: "they should just bring Kashmir into mainstream India, [and] remove all the special clauses..."

This would be, as I am sure you would agree, illegal according to international law. As for the UN resolutions, they are *non-binding *but specifically lay out terms of a cease-fire, withdrawal of troops and a free and democratic plebiscite under the auspice of the UN.

As for Pakistan ceding the Trans-Korakoram Tract to China, this was a good-will gesture to our Chinese friends and is by no means an illegal action because it is not a permanent solution. The ultimate status of this piece of land will be settled subject to the final answer to the Kashmir question. Regardless, India considers Azad Kashmir, GB as well as the T-K Tract to be her territory, and hence, the issue is - according to her own position - one that surpasses her national borders (ergo, hardly the 'internal' issue that your government would decry).

To conclude and with regards to your final sentiments: India's national security or her considerations with regards to Kashmiris being Indian citizens or not are subjects of supreme irrelevance. India has no locus standi on the issue of that people's fundamental right of self-determination. You may not admit to that now because of the pitiful blinkers of xenophobia over your eyes and ears, but oppression and tyranny last only so long. I end with this poignant quote from Thomas Jefferson who said in 1785: "Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever."

47

Re: Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

Tasavur, it is of absoloutely no importance what a group we belong to considers ‘Kashmir’. You belong to the UN too, but do not recognize Israel.

It is absoloutely illegal, iniquitous, brazen and crooked to unilaterally transfer a piece of territory- while it is still under dispute- to a third party, and thereby to make it party to the dispute, no matter what the pretext is - “goodwill gestures” notwithstanding.

The United Nations, that same comity of Nations to whose membership you appeal our good sense, is very clear on this:

This will provide you a beginning guide to UN resolutions on the nature of territorial dispute:

You’re spot on on the part of UN resolutions being “non-binding”. You’re also spot on on the part of the ‘free and fair democratic plebsicite under the auspices of the UN’. What you’ve missed is that a complete and total withdrawal of troops, a cessation of any and all, and every acts of terror, and a complete and total dismantling of terrorist camps and terrorist-training infrastructure on the Pakisthani side- are a necessary precondition for the holding of that plebiscite; conditions which have not been forthcoming from Pakistan in the last 63 years.

The Constitution of India is very clear on what ‘Kashmir’ is to India, and that is an inalienable, integral- yes integral, part of India. Our foreign policy, our domestic policy and our mandate is informed by that.

On the other hand, Pakistan is very clear on what its status is on Kashmir- ‘disputed’: how could it not be, for the legitimacy of its argument is predicated on the ‘self determinacy’ of the people.

The only thing, and I mean the only thing, that will prevent us from removing Article 370- special consideration for the state and territory of Jammu and Kashmir- is consideration for the Kashmiri’s feelings. And the Congress government is very clear about consideration for the Kashmiris feelings.

Besides, I believe, what article TakethatSixer was talking about included- the much hated ASFPA- the Army Special Forces Powers Act- that allows the Army to go on killing with impunity. We are in favour of its removal also, we do not want our citizens living under Army control.

Believe you me, there are no ‘pitiful blinkers of xenophobia’ over my eyes and ears. I consider myself a very liberal person, with friends of diverse kinds and stripes- including hardcore Somalians, latin Americans and fundamentalist Christians. And yes, even ‘Azad’’ Kashmiries. On the other hand, I do notice an egregious blanket of illogic-ism over yours.

48

Re: Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

Nehru's telegram to Liaqat Ali Khan On 27 October 1947, the day the Indian army officially invaded Kashmir.

Jawaharlal Nehru sent the following telegram to Liaqat Ali Khan, the Prime
Minister of Pakistan:

"I should like to make it clear that the question of aiding Kashmir in this emergency is not designed in
any way to influence the State to accede to India. Our view which we have repeatedly made public
is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or State must be decided in accordance
with the wishes of people and we adhere to this view."

Nehru's telegram to Liaqat Ali Khan On 31 October 1947, four days after the Indian army officially invaded Kashmir.

Nehru's telegram to Liaqat Ali Khan
Four days later, in his telegram of 3l October, 1947, to Pakistan Prime Minister Liaqat Ali Khan, Nehru said:

" .... our assurance that we shall withdraw our troops from Kashmir as soon as peace and order are
restored and leave the decision about the future of the State to the people of the State is not merely
a pledge to your government but also to the people of Kashmir and to the world."

Nehru's reiteration of plebiscite pledge in a telegram to Liaqat Ali Khan of 3 November, 1947

"I wish to draw your attention to broadcast on Kashmir which l made last evening. have stated our
Government's policy and made it clear that we have no desire to impose our will on Kashmir but to
leave final decision to people of Kashmir. l further stated that we have agreed on impartial
international agency like United Nation', supervising any referendum."

Government of India's letter to the Security Council. In its letter of 31 December, 1947, taking the Kashmir issue to the UN, the Government of India wrote to the Security Council:

" .... But in order to avoid any possible suggestion that India had utilised the State's immediate peril
for her own political advantage, the Government of India made it clear that once the soil of the State
had been cleared of the invader and normal conditions restored, its people would be free to decide
their future by the recognised democratic method of plebiscite or referendum which, in order to
ensure complete impartiality, might be held under international auspices."

49

Re: Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

I India should restrict to use of fire power on unarmed people of Kashmir who only want freedom from slavery.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/front-page/un-chief-calls-for-immediate-end-to-kashmir-violence-290

UN chief calls for immediate end to Kashmir violence

UNITED NATIONS: UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon called on Tuesday for an “immediate end to violence” in Indian-held Kashmir, following weeks of confrontation between Indian troops and Kashmiri protesters.

His spokesman Martin Neseriky said in a statement that Mr Ban had urged “calm and restraint by all concerned”.

Responding to a question at a briefing, Mr Neseriky said the “secretary general regrets the loss of life” due to hostilities in the region.

In August, the UN chief issued a similar statement calling for calm and restraint but later withdrew it saying it was just an advisory and not a statement from his office.

But now that the situation in the occupied territory has become endemic he was constrained to respond as journalists raised questions about his position on the deteriorating situation in the area and questioned his ‘no comment’ posture.

50

Re: Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

Treaty of Accession by the Ruler of Kashmir, invalidating any pledges made by Nehru to ‘Liauqat Ali Khan’ former Prime minister of Pakistan, in *private correspondence:

*The preamble says that: Whereas the Indian Independence Act, 1947, provides that as from the fifteenth day of August, 1947, there shall be set up an Independent Dominion known as India, and that the Government of India Act 1935 shall, with such omission, additions, adaptations and modifications as the governor-general may by order specify, be applicable to the Dominion of India.
And whereas the Government of India Act 1935, as so adapted by the governor-general, provides that an Indian State may accede to the Dominion of India by an Instrument of Accession executed by the Ruler thereof.
Now, therefore, I Shriman Inder Mahander Rajrajeswar Maharajadhiraj Shri Hari Singhji, Jammu and Kashmir Naresh Tatha Tibbetadi Deshadhipathi, Ruler of Jammu and Kashmir, in the exercise of my sovereignty in and over my said State do hereby execute this my Instrument of Accession and

  1. I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of India with the intent that the governor-general of India, the Dominion Legislature, the Federal Court and any other Dominion authority established for the purposes of the Dominion shall, by virtue of this my Instrument of Accession but subject always to the terms thereof, and for the purposes only of the Dominion, exercise in relation to the State of Jammu and Kashmir (hereinafter referred to as “this State”) such functions as may be vested in them by or under the Government of India Act, 1935, as in force in the Dominion of India, on the 15th day of August, 1947, (which Act as so in force is hereafter referred to as “the Act”).
    It is further specified that: 3. I accept the matters specified in the schedule hereto as the matters with respect to which the Dominion Legislature may make law for this State.

http://mha.nic.in/pdfs/AccessionDoc.pdf

Instrument of Accession executed by Maharajah Hari Singh on October 26, 1947

 Whereas the Indian Independence Act, 1947, provides that as from the fifteenth day of August, 1947, there shall be set up an independent Dominion known as INDIA, and that the Government of India Act 1935, shall with such omissions, additions, adaptations and modifications as the Governor General may by order specify, be applicable to the Dominion of India.

And whereas the Government of India Act, 1935, as so adapted by the Governor General, provides that an Indian State may accede to the Dominion of India by an Instrument of Accession executed by the Ruler thereof.

Now, therefore, I Shriman Inder Mahinder Rajrajeswar Maharajadhiraj Shri Hari Singhji, Jammu & Kashmir Naresh Tatha Tibbet adi Deshadhipati, Ruler of Jammu & Kashmir State, in the exercise of my Sovereignty in and over my said State do hereby execute this my Instrument of Accession and

  1. I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of India with the intent that the Governor General of India, the Dominion Legislature, the Federal Court and any other Dominion authority established for the purposes of the Dominion shall by virtue of this my Instrument of Accession but subject always to the terms thereof, and for the purposes only of the Dominion, exercise in relation to the State of Jammu & Kashmir (hereinafter referred to as “this State”) such functions as may be vested in them by or under the Government of India Act, 1935, as in force in the Dominion of India, on the 15th day of August 1947, (which Act as so in force is hereafter referred to as "the Act’).

  2. I hereby assume the obligation of ensuring that due effect is given to provisions of the Act within this State so far as they are applicable therein by virtue of this my Instrument of Accession.

  3. I accept the matters specified in the schedule hereto as the matters with respect to which the Dominion Legislature may make law for this State.

  4. I hereby declare that I accede to the Dominion of India on the assurance that if an agreement is made between the Governor General and the Ruler of this State whereby any functions in relation to the administration in this State of any law of the Dominion Legislature shall be exercised by the Ruler of the State, then any such agreement shall be construed and have effect accordingly.

  5. The terms of this my Instrument of Accession shall not be varied by any amendment of the Act or the Indian Independence Act, 1947, unless such amendment is accepted by me by Instrument supplementary to this Instrument.

  6. Nothing in this Instrument shall empower the Dominion Legislature to make any law for this State authorizing the compulsory acquisition of land for any purpose, but I hereby undertake that should the Dominion for the purpose of a Dominion law which applies in this State deem it necessary to acquire any land, I will at their request acquire the land at their expense, or, if the land belongs to me transfer it to them on such terms as may be agreed or, in default of agreement, determined by an arbitrator to be appointed by the Chief Justice of India.

  7. Nothing in this Instrument shall be deemed to commit in any way to acceptance of any future constitution of India or to fetter my discretion to enter into agreement with the Government of India under any such future constitution.

  8. Nothing in this Instrument affects the continuance of my Sovereignty in and over this State, or, save as provided by or under this Instrument, the exercise of any powers, authority and rights now enjoyed by me as Ruler of this State or the validity of any law at present in force in this State.

  9. I hereby declare that I execute this Instrument on behalf of this State and that any reference in this Instrument to me or to the Ruler of the State is to be construed as including a reference to my heirs and successors. Given under my hand this 26th day of October, nineteen hundred and forty seven.

Hari Singh

Maharajadhiraj of Jammu and Kashmir State.

51

Re: Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

Simple - Nehru said very clearly that the invaders have to first leave Kashmir. That has not happened. The UN resolutions said the same thing. That has not happened either.

Since 1947, the population of the area has undergone major change with the Hindu portion driven out due to Pakistani occupation and raids.

Therefore there is no question of adopting any of the Nehru's ideas in Kashmr anymore.

those Pakistanis who like to advise on this matter should first advise their own country to completely liberate POK; that area then should be merged with J&K to restore conditions prevalent in Nehruvian times; the Hindus should be brought back to restore the population.

When these things happen, then these advisers from Pakistan can once gain talk about what Nehru said!

52

Re: Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

move on man.kashmir is not the whole thing.

pakistan is the example of a country which is looking after only one thing and as a result they are getting weaker,underdeveloped in all other departments.

53

Re: Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

India you might recall was on the verge of bankruptcy in 91. What had they been focusing on up till then?

Still, we Pakistanis dont need to focus on Kashmir. Indian stupidity and incompetence is enough to keep the Kashmiris from ever allowing the issue from fading away.

54

Re: Two thirds in Kashmir want independence: poll

wrong! it is actually pakistani stupidity of creating and sustaining terrorism under the guise of mujahideen and jihad (google isi support of terrorists) that made Kashmir an issue in the first place and by sheer natural justice ended up creating the current spector of biweekly mosque bombing within pakistan. you are reaping what ypu sowed