Truth, Faith and Blind Faith

Sun,Moon,Earth,Air and Water is the truth and in absence of these we cannot survive .Do you agree?

Faith some thing we cannot test,we cannot experience but we run after it

And blind faith, some shroud people tells us to believe it without testing it or without any proof and insisting us to belive it just because these shroud men are telling them and then thay called themself as son of god or the last messenger of god.

These shroud people are successful in creating fear among ourself that if we don’t follow them then we are KAFIR and will go to HELL other wise we will go to heaven

Keeping this reward (heaven) or punishment(hell) we even without thinking follow these
shroud people and create group of people and called that as a religion and start fight among ourself. Is it not a joke?

[quote]
Originally posted by Sadhu:
Sun,Moon,Earth,Air and Water is the truth and in absence of these we cannot survive .Do you agree?
[/quote]

Its true we cannot survive without the sun,the earth, air, water, these are all fundamentals necessary to life. But we as humans need something else, we are different from Allah swt other creations in the sense that we have been granted freedom, and a moral sense....in other words a conscience.

[quote]
Faith some thing we cannot test,we cannot experience but we run after it
[/quote]
I disagree, i believe faith is tested time and time again, and each time with each and every hardship we overcome..our faith, our belief is strengthened. How can we not help but experience faith?--Faith for those who have it is an essential aspect of one's being without which one feels lost. And that is why..as u say 'we run after it' because we need it.

[quote]
And blind faith, some shroud people tells us to believe it without testing it or without any proof and insisting us to belive it just because these shroud men are telling them and then thay called themself as son of god or the last messenger of god.
[/quote]
Hmmm..i'm curious--what do u mean by 'shroud' people? And what do u mean by blind faith exactly? Alright, faith in a sense can be synonymous with trust in the Almighty..Allah swt. Faith is well an act of 'faith', its almost seems like a step into the unknown but its not because you are not alone you have your faith to guide you...
Okay, so if u are saying that it is blind faith, to believe in something of which there is no 'readily' available proof. Then what is real faith? I mean faith is the ultimate act of trust.

[quote]
*Keeping this reward (heaven) or punishment(hell) we even without thinking follow these shroud people and create group of people and called that as a religion and start fight among ourself. Is it not a joke?
*

[/quote]

I'm curious to know what you believe in Sadhu, because you know, even atheisists(sp?) have to have faith. Ironic as it may be, they have to believe with all their heart that they are right, because in the instance they are wrong the loss will be theirs....so my point is everyone needs faith whatever their beliefs...even if it is belief in unbelief. wry smile If that makes any sense that is.

If faith were not a part and parcel of life, death would be non-existent. But death is a reality of life, which everyone on this believes in, whether they follow any religion or not. Sun, moon etc have their place in our lives, but they all have substitutes. They can be replaced by a number of things.
Believing in the fact called death, and more importantly, the life hereafter, is what compels us to define our faith, and believe in what we believe in, and then define the purpose of life for ourselves. Prophets and messengers came to us with a simplified form of this intricate knowledge, and we, as human can choose to accept it or ignore it. This world cant be the end for us. There has to be a reason for us being here. This life is nothing but a rest stop. The journey continues after death....and that journey will be comfortable, or bumpy, based on what we did in this world. Then again, its all a matter of faith.

[quote]
Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh: *.... and each time with each and every hardship we overcome..our faith, our belief is strengthened.
*

[/quote]

girly. please elaborate this part. how can hardships be helpful in testing our faith. i think sadhu is right over here. even in times of hardship though we increase our worships in frequency and duration and depth BUT we still lack something called scrutiny.

all these prayers will certainly not help us to test our faith but a way to promote and further concrete our right or wrong beliefs. see girly this a very important point which people broadly ignores. all these mode of prayers are ineffectual unless some asks Him for assistance. there is no other way to scrutinize or test our beliefs unless someone makeup his/her mind for that and ask him.

[quote]
Originally posted by Akif:
*There has to be a reason for us being here. *
[/quote]

Hey Akif -

I bring up this one quote you said, and I ask if, really, there has to be a reason for us being here? It's not necessarily that I disagree with this statement, but rather, I am not quite ready to accept it as a basis for a belief in God.

Is it not possible that there is no reason for us being here? That there is no creator, at least not a creator who has more tangible qualities than, say, the "Laws of Physics"? Can it be possible that we are simply here, we live, we die, and our genes get passed on, and that's all there is to it? That our abilities for conscious thought are just a means for us to survive, and were not granted to us by some higher power?

Is it just human nature to have to believe in "faith", the way GFQ describes it, or is it the greatest fallacy that our ancestors have brought down to us?

Finally, exactly what is lost by a person who is clearly atheistic - who only believes in the here and now, who has no care about an afterlife, and who only believes that he can only be happy by taking part in this world only, and not to save himself for a heaven/hell afterlife? Is such a person a cancer on society, necesarily?

O.k all you 'smart ass’if you want to learn the hard way ,go ahead immerse yourself into this losers rambling & need to verify his brth mother before trusting her. http://www.sulekha.com/philosophy/messages/11470.html Theism, Atheism, and Rationality

Alvin Plantinga


Alvin Plantinga has been called “the most important philosopher of
religion now writing.” After taking his Ph.D. from Yale in 1958, he
taught at Wayne State University (1958-63), Calvin College (1963-82),
and has filled the John A. O’Brien Chair of Philosophy at the University
of Notre Dame since 1982. He was president of the Western Division of
the American Philosophical Association during 1981-82 and president of
the Society of Christian Philosophers, which he helped to found, from
1983 to 1986. He frequently directs summer seminars for the National
Endowment for the Humanities. He has received numerous honors, including
an Award for Distinguished Teaching from the Danforth Foundation, a
fellowship from the Center for Advanced Studies in the Behavioral
Sciences, a fellowship from the Guggenheim Foundation, a fellowship from
the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, separate fellowships from the
N.E.H., and a fellowship from the American Council of Learned Societies.
He has been awarded an honorary doctorate from Glasgow University. He
has been invited to deliver more distinguished lectures series at
American, Canadian, and British universities than can be listed here,
except to note that he was selected to give the eminent Gifford Lectures
at Aberdeen University in 1987-88. He was recently honored by a volume
of essays bearing his name in D. Reidel’s Profiles series. Widely
acclaimed for his work on the metaphysics of modality, the ontological
argument, the problem of evil, and the epistemology of religious belief,
he is the author or editor of seven books, including God and Other Minds
, The Nature of Necessity, and Faith and Rationality. Several of his
articles, which have appeared in journals such as Theoria, American
Philosophical Quarterly, Philosophical Studies, Journal of Philosophy,
and so forth, have been hailed as masterpieces of the metaphysician’s
craft.

Atheological objections to the belief that there is such a person as God
come in many varieties. There are, for example, the familiar objections
that theism is somehow incoherent, that it is inconsistent with the
existence of evil, that it is a hypothesis ill-confirmed or maybe even
disconfirmed by the evidence, that modern science has somehow cast doubt
upon it, and the like. Another sort of objector claims, not that theism
is incoherent or false or probably false (after all, there is precious
little by way of cogent argument for that conclusion) but that it is in
some way unreasonable or irrational to believe in God, even if that
belief should happen to be true. Here we have, as a centerpiece, the
evidentialist objection to theistic belief. The claim is that none of
the theistic arguments-deductive, inductive, or abductive-is successful;
hence there is at best insufficient evidence for the existence of God.
But then the belief that there is such a person as God is in some way
intellectually improper-somehow foolish or irrational. A person who
believed without evidence that there are an even number of ducks would
be believing foolishly or irrationally; the same goes for the person who
believes in God without evidence. On this view, one who accepts belief
in God but has no evidence for that belief is not, intellectually
speaking, up to snuff. Among those who have offered this objection are
Antony Flew, Brand Blanshard, and Michael Scriven. Perhaps more
important is the enormous oral tradition: one finds this objection to
theism bruited about on nearly any major university campus in the land.
The objection in question has also been endorsed by Bertrand Russell,
who was once asked what he would say if, after dying, he were brought
into the presence of God and asked whyhe had not been a believer.
Russell’s reply: “I’d say, ‘Not enough evidence, God! Not enough
evidence!’” I’m not sure just how that reply would be received; but my
point is only that Russell, like many others, has endorsed this
evidentialist objection to theistic belief.

Now what, precisely, is the objector’s claim here? He holds that the
theist without evidence is irrational or unreasonable; what is the
property with which he is crediting such a theist when he thus describes
him? What, exactly, or even approximately, does he mean when he says
that the theist without evidence is irrational? Just what, as he sees
it, is the problem with such a theist? The objection can be seen as
taking at least two forms; and there are at least two corresponding
senses or conceptions of rationality lurking in the nearby bushes.
According to the first, a theist who has no evidence has violated an
intellectual or cognitive duty of some sort. He has gone contrary to an
obligation laid upon him-perhaps by society, or perhaps by his own
nature as a creature capable of grasping propositions and holding
beliefs. There is an obligation or something like an obligation to
proportion one’s beliefs to the strength of the evidence. Thus according
to John Locke, a mark of a rational person is “the not entertaining any
proposition with greater assurance than the proof it is built upon will
warrant,” and according to David Hume, “A wise man proportions his
belief to the evidence.”

In the nineteenth century we have W.K. Clifford, that “delicious enfant
terrible” as William James called him, insisting that it is monstrous,
immoral, and perhaps even impolite to accept a belief for which you have
insufficient evidence:

Whoso would deserve well of his fellow in this matter will guard the
purity of his belief with a very fanaticism of jealous care, lest at any
time it should rest on an unworthy object, and catch a stain which can
never be wiped away.[1]
He adds that if a

belief has been accepted on insufficient evidence, the pleasure is a
stolen one. Not only does it deceive ourselves by giving us a sense of
power which we do not really possess, but it is sinful, stolen in
defiance of our duty to mankind. That duty is to guard ourselves from
such beliefs as from a pestilence, which may shortly master our body and
spread to the rest of the town. [2]
And finally:

To sum up: it is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone to believe
anything upon insufficient evidence.[3]
(It is not hard to detect, in these quotations, the “tone of robustious
pathos” with which James credits Clifford.) On this view theists without
evidence-my sainted grandmother, for example-are flouting their
epistemic duties and deserve our disapprobation and disapproval. Mother
Teresa, for example, if she has not arguments for her belief in God,
then stands revealed as a sort of intellectual libertine-someone who has
gone contrary to her intellectual obligations and is deserving of
reproof and perhaps even disciplinary action.

Now the idea that there are intellectual duties or obligations is
difficult but not implausible, and I do not mean to question it here. It
is less plausible, however, to suggest that I would or could be going
contrary to my intellectual duties in believing, without evidence, that
there is such a person as God. For first, my beliefs are not, for the
most part, within my control. If, for example, you offer me $1,000,000
to cease believing that Mars is smaller than Venus, there is no way I
can collect. But the same holds for my belief in God: even if I wanted
to, I couldn’t-short of heroic measures like coma inducing drugs-just
divest myself of it. (At any rate there is nothing I can do directly;
perhaps there is a sort of regimen that if followed religiously would
issue, in the long run, in my no longer accepting belief in God.) But
secondly, there seems no reason to think that I have such an obligation.
Clearly I am not under an obligation to have evidence for everything I
believe; that would not be possible. But why, then, suppose that I have
an obligation to accept belief in God only if I accept other
propositions which serve as evidence for it? This is by no means
self-evident or just obvious, and it is extremely hard to see how to
find a cogent argument for it.

In any event, I think the evidentialist objector can take a more
promising line. He can hold, not that the theist without evidence has
violated some epistemic duty-after all, perhaps he can’t help himself-
but that he is somehow intellectually flawed or disfigured. Consider
someone who believes that Venus is smaller than Mercury-not because he
has evidence, but because he read it in a comic book and always believes
whatever he reads in comic books-or consider someone who holds that
belief on the basis of an outrageously bad argument. Perhaps there is no
obligation he has failed to meet; nevertheless his intellectual
condition is defective in some way. He displays a sort of deficiency, a
flaw, an intellectual dysfunction of some sort. Perhaps he is like
someone who has an astigmatism, or is unduly clumsy, or suffers from
arthritis. And perhaps the evidentialist objection is to be construed,
not as the claim that the theist without evidence has violated some
intellectual obligations, but that he suffers from a certain sort of
intellectual deficiency. The theist without evidence, we might say, is
an intellectual gimp.

Alternatively but similarly, the idea might be that the theist without
evidence is under a sort of illusion, a kind of pervasive illusion
afflicting the great bulk of mankind over the great bulk of the time
thus far allotted to it. Thus Freud saw religious belief as “illusions,
fulfillments of the oldest, strongest, and most insistent wishes of
mankind.”[4 ]He sees theistic belief as a matter of wish-fulfillment.
Men are paralyzed by and appalled at the spectacle of the overwhelming,
impersonal forces that control our destiny, but mindlessly take no
notice, no account of us and our needs and desires; they therefore
invent a heavenly father of cosmic proportions, who exceeds our earthly
fathers in goodness and love as much as in power. Religion, says Freud,
is the “universal obsessional neurosis of humanity”, and it is destined
to disappear when human beings learn to face reality as it is, resisting
the tendency to edit it to suit our fancies.

A similar sentiment is offered by Karl Marx:

Religion . . . is the self-consciousness and the self-feeling of the man
who has either not yet found himself, or else (having found himself) has
lost himself once more. But man is not an abstract being . . . Man is
the world of men, the State, society. This State, this society, produce
religion, produce a perverted world consciousness, because they are a
perverted world . . . Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature,
the feelings of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of
unspiritual conditions. It is the opium of the people.

The people cannot be really happy until it has been deprived of illusory
happiness by the abolition of religion. The demand that the people
should shake itself free of illusion as to its own condition is the
demand that it should abandon a condition which needs illusion.[5]
Note that Marx speaks here of a perverted world consciousness produced
by a perverted world. This is a perversion from a correct, or right, or
natural condition, brought about somehow by an unhealthy and perverted
social order. From the Marx-Freud point of view, the theist is subject
to a sort of cognitive dysfunction, a certain lack of cognitive and
emotional health. We could put this as follows: the theist believes as
he does only because of the power of this illusion, this perverted
neurotic condition. He is insane, in the etymological sense of that
term; he is unhealthy. His cognitive equipment, we might say, isn’t
working properly; it isn’t functioning as it ought to. If his cognitive
equipment were working properly, working the way it ought to work, he
wouldn’t be under the spell of this illusion. He would instead face the
world and our place in it with the clear-eyed apprehension that we are
alone in it, and that any comfort and help we get will have to be our
own devising. There is no Father in heaven to turn to, and no prospect
of anything, after death, but dissolution. (“When we die, we rot,” says
Michael Scriven, in one of his more memorable lines.)

Now of course the theist is likely to display less than overwhelming
enthusiasm about the idea that he is suffering from a cognitive
deficiency, is under a sort of widespread illusion endemic to the human
condition. It is at most a liberal theologian or two, intent on novelty
and eager to concede as much as possible to contemporary secularity, who
would embrace such an idea. The theist doesn’t see himself as suffering
from cognitive deficiency. As a matter of fact, he may be inclined to
see the shoe as on the other foot; he may be inclined to think of the
atheist as the person who is suffering, in this way, from some illusion,
from some noetic defect, from an unhappy, unfortunate, and unnatural
condition with deplorable noetic consequences. He will see the atheist
as somehow the victim of sin in the world- his own sin or the sin of
others. According to the book of Romans, unbelief is a result of sin; it
originates in an effort to “suppress the truth in unrighteousness.”
According to John Calvin, God has created us with a nisus or tendency to
see His hand in the world around us; a “sense of deity,” he says, “is
inscribed in the hearts of all.” He goes on:

Indeed, the perversity of the impious, who though they struggle
furiously are unable to extricate themselves from the fear of God, is
abundant testimony that his conviction, namely, that there is some God,
is naturally inborn in all, and is fixed deep within, as it were in the
very marrow. . . . From this we conclude that it is not a doctrine that
must first be learned in school, but one of which each of us is master
from his mother’s womb and which nature itself permits no man to
forget.[6]
Were it not for the existence of sin in the world, says Calvin, human
beings would believe in God to the same degree and with the same natural
spontaneity displayed in our belief in the existence of other persons,
or an external world, or the past. This is the natural human condition;
it is because of our presently unnatural sinful condition that many of
us find belief in God difficult or absurd. The fact is, Calvin thinks,
one who does not believe in God is in an epistemically defective
position-rather like someone who does not believe that his wife exists,
or thinks that she is a cleverly constructed robot that has no thoughts,
feelings, or consciousness. Thus the believer reverses Freud and Marx,
claiming that what they see as sickness is really health and what they
see as health is really sickness.

Obviously enough, the dispute here is ultimately ontological, or
theological, or metaphysical; here we see the ontological and ultimately
religious roots of epistemological discussions of rationality. What you
take to be rational, at least in the sense in question, depends upon
your metaphysical and religious stance. It depends upon your
philosophical anthropology. Your view as to what sort of creature a
human being is will determine, in whole or in part, your views as to
what is rational or irrational for human beings to believe; this view
will determine what you take to be natural, or normal, or healthy, with
respect to belief. So the dispute as to who is rational and who is
irrational here can’t be settled just by attending to epistemological
considerations; it is fundamentally not an epistemological dispute, but
an ontological or theological dispute. How can we tell what it is
healthy for human beings to believe unless we know or have some idea
about what sort of creature a human being is? If you think he is created
by God in the image of God, and created with a natural tendency to see
God’s hand in the world about us, a natural tendency to recognize that
he has been created and is beholden to his creator, owing his worship
and allegiance, then of course you will not think of belief in God as a
manifestation of wishful thinking or as any kind of defect at all. It is
then much more like sense perception or memory, though in some ways much
more important. On the other hand, if you think of a human being as the
product of blind evolutionary forces, if you think there is no God and
that human beings are part of a godless universe, then you will be
inclined to accept a view according to which belief in God is a sort of
disease or dysfunction, due perhaps, to a sort of softening of the
brain.

So the dispute as to who is healthy and who diseased has ontological or
theological roots, and is finally to be settled, if at all at that
level. And here I would like to present a consideration that, I think
tells in favor of the theistic way of looking at the matter. As I have
been representing that matter, theist and atheist alike speak of a sort
of dysfunction, of cognitive faculties or cognitive equipment not
working properly, of their not working as they ought to. But how are we
to understand that? What is it for something to work properly? Isn’t
there something deeply problematic about the idea of proper functioning?
What is it for my cognitive faculties to be working properly? What is it
for a natural organism-a tree, for example-to be in good working order,
to be functioning properly? Isn’t working properly relative to our aims
and interests? A cow is functioning properly when she gives milk; a
garden patch is as it ought to be when it displays a luxuriant
preponderance of the sorts of vegetation we propose to promote. But then
it seems patent that what constitutes proper functioning depends upon
our aims and interests. So far as nature herself goes, isn’t a fish
decomposing in a hill of corn functioning just as properly, just as
excellently, as one happily swimming about chasing minnows? But then
what could be meant by speaking of “proper functioning” with respect to
our cognitive faculties? A chunk of reality-an organism, a part of an
organism, an ecosystem, a garden patch-“functions properly” only with
respect to a sort of grid we impose on nature-a grid that incorporates
our aims and desires.

But from a theistic point of view, the idea of proper functioning, as
applied to us and our cognitive equipment, is not more problematic than,
say, that of a Boeing 747’s working properly. Something we have
constructed-a heating system, a rope, a linear accelerator-is
functioning properly when it is functioning in the way it was designed
to function. My car works properly if it works the way it was designed
to work. My refrigerator is working properly if it refrigerates, if it
does what a refrigerator is designed to do. This, I think, is the root
idea of working properly. But according to theism, human beings, like
ropes and linear accelerators, have been designed; they have been
created and designed by God. Thus, he has an easy answer to the relevant
set of questions: What is proper functioning? What is it for my
cognitive faculties to be working properly? What is cognitive
dysfunction? What is it to function naturally? My cognitive faculties
are functioning naturally, when they are functioning in the way God
designed them to function.

On the other hand, if the atheological evidentialist objector claims
that the theist without evidence is irrational, and if he goes on to
construe irrationality in terms of defect or dysfunction, then he owes
us an account of this notion. Why does he take it that the theist is
somehow dysfunctional, at least in this area of his life? More
importantly, how does he conceive dysfunction? How does he see
dysfunction and its opposite? How does he explain the idea of an
organism’s working properly, or of some organic system or part of an
organism’s thus working? What account does he give of it? Presumably he
can’t see the proper functioning of my noetic equipment as its
functioning in the way it was designed to function; so how can he put
it?

Two possibilities leap to mind. First, he may be thinking of proper
functioning as functioning in a way that helps us attain our ends. In
this way, he may say, we think of our bodies as functioning properly, as
being healthy, when they function in the way we want them to, when they
function in such a way as to enable us to do the sorts of things we want
to do. But of course this will not be a promising line to take in the
present context; for while perhaps the atheological objector would
prefer to see our cognitive faculties function in such a way as not to
produce belief in God in us, the same cannot be said, naturally enough,
for the theist. Taken this way the atheological evidentialist’s
objection comes to little more than the suggestion that the
atheologician would prefer it if people did not believe in God without
evidence. That would be an autobiographical remark on his part, having
the interest such remarks usually have in philosophical contexts.

A second possibility: proper functioning and allied notions are to be
explained in terms of aptness for promoting survival, either at an
individual or species level. There isn’t time to say much about this
here; but it is at least and immediately evident that the atheological
objector would then owe us an argument for the conclusion that belief in
God is indeed less likely to contribute to our individual survival, or
the survival of our species than is atheism or agnosticism. But how
could such an argument go? Surely the prospects for a non-question
begging argument of this sort are bleak indeed. For if theism-Christian
theism, for example-is true, then it seems wholly implausible to think
that widespread atheism, for example, would be more likely to contribute
to the survival of our race than widespread theism.

By way of conclusion: a natural way to understand such notions as
rationality and irrationality is in terms of the proper functioning of
the relevant cognitive equipment. Seen from this perspective, the
question whether it is rational to believe in God without the evidential
support of other propositions is really a metaphysical or theological
dispute. The theist has an easy time explaining the notion of our
cognitive equipment’s functioning properly: our cognitive equipment
functions properly when it functions in the way God designed it to
function. The atheist evidential objector, however, owes us an account
of this notion. What does he mean when he complains that the theist
without evidence displays a cognitive defect of some sort? How does he
understand the notion of cognitive malfunction?


NOTES

[1]W.K. Clifford, “The Ethics of Belief,” in Lectures and Essays
(London: Macmillan, 1879), p. 183.

[2]Ibid, p. 184.

[3]Ibid, p. 186.

[4]Sigmund Freud, The Future of an Illusion (New York: Norton, 1961), p.
30.

[5]K. Marx and F. Engels, Collected Works, vol. 3: Introduction to a
Critique of the Hegelian Philosophy of Right, by Karl Marx (London:
Lawrence & Wishart, 1975).

[6]John Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, trans. Ford Lewis
Battles (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1960), 1.3 (p. 43- 44).

ahem, Hrithik, why did you post a whole wad of nothing?

The entire article is about a guy defending his position as a theist by saying that he is free to believe what he wants, come hell or high water.

This is your stand on theism?

Faith is a necessity for most but at what cost and prerequisite?

"As long as the prerequisite for that shining paradise is ignorance, bigotry, and hate... I say the hell with it."

[quote]
Originally posted by astrosfan:
**ahem, Hrithik, why did you post a whole wad of nothing?

The entire article is about a guy defending his position as a theist by saying that he is free to believe what he wants, come hell or high water.

This is your stand on theism?**
[/quote]

Astro truth is i never bothered to read it myself;-) ROFTL ha ha ha thanks for giving me the gist!!

Metaphysical thaughts ,pluto .& philosophy turn me off,so in order to piss you off i posed a LONGA$$ post .Looks like it worked,the above poster is already started repeating himself from his previous post.
Go to kail kilari read my post on hockey olympic its much refreshing.:>)


Of course anyone is free to believe in what they want. Everyone believes in something. People have two classifications of faith. One classification believes in what pleases them, and the other believes in what they think is right, whether or not it pleases them. Neither of these basic attributes necessarily put one form of belief over the other. Its all a matter of your own inner self. If a joe bloe believes in atheism, I wont be affected by it, and similarly my belief in one supreme power does not affect an atheist in anyway.
In this life, we have control over what we do, how we do it, and whe we do it. We have been given brains to make all those decisions. Once we die, the control is taken away, and the accounting begins. Or as an atheist may believe, its the end of the story. But neither of us can positively define what will happen to either of us after we die. I have a certain belief that i developed based on what i understood as the right message, and an atheist has his own reasons for believing in what he believes in.
I think the bottom line is to share knowledge and logic of all such thought processes, enabling all human beings to see both sides of the coin, and then make a rational decision based on that. Belief is supposed to come from the heart, not from the mind.

I can't disagree with that Akif, not at all.

However, this particular article that Hrithik posted was in the spirit of the belief of heart and mind, but rather to discredit the atheist, and did a rather poor job of it.

Sadhu, it has come to my understanding that you are denying God, is that correct?

Many generations and societies and people have denied God before you. They all vanished, somehow, some point in their life God showed them his power. You have communists, the societies mentioned in quran(there is no doubt in quran, its all proven and correct to be the fact and word of God, the one and only).

I hope you change your mind before something horrible hits you from God.

Sun, Moon, etc came to the existance because of God.

Bye. :)

Nicely said Akif

http://www3.pak.org/gupshup/smilies/smile.gif

Okay Astrofan, here are my two cents, but i think Akif said it all. I think belief/faith, is more than an aspect of human nature, i think having something to believe in is a Need. Allah swt has created people distinct from animals, he has blessed us with a spirit—wherein we has the freedom of our mind and body, and a moral sense—a conscious if you will–with which to reason.

Hmmm alright atheists. Okay basically, an atheist is someone who denies the existence of God, so from where I stand I would be able to say—from my perspective— someone who believes in the belief of unbelief. Therefore, you can see that an atheist also needs to possess faith, atheists cannotdeny the existence of Allah swt, with evidence, with proof, hence their need for faith.

Now here’s an another point, if it is me, a follower of islam, a muslim, that will end up as the one who is wrong, I will have lost nothing. For not only do I believe in the existence of Allah swt, the One, the Eternal, not only do I believe in that Muhammad sallallaho alaihe wasallam was a messenger of Allah swt, and the seal of the prophets, not only do I believe that the Qu’ran is Allah swt’s word to mankind in its unaltered purity. I also am a muslim, a follower of Islam, the deen of Allah swt. Therefore I believe in humanity, I submit to a way of life, that strives for the betterment of the individual and the community; to a religion that seeks for the unity of humanity. So I can say, that if I am wrong in my belief of not only the existence but the oneness of Allah swt, which with all my sincerity I cannot even fathom, I will lose nothing in this world…if i follow my deen, inshaAllah. While, if someone who denies the existence of God, an atheist, ends up wrong in their conviction, they will be the ones who truly lose.

[nanga], you asked..

I’m not sure what you mean by scrutiny. How can hardships be helpful in testing our faith?–hmmm, alright well what i meant was that every trial, every hardship gives us an opportunity to strengthen our iman–our faith, by developing sabr(patience) which is part of imaan. Here’s a verse, umm from surah al imran i think…(its the translation)Do you think that you will enter Heaven without God testing you (to see) who will struggle hard from among you, and who will remain patient?

Examples of blind faith

1) Mohammed is a last messenger

Why one should one belive that he would be the last messenger just because he says so?

2) There is no one other than ALAHA

Actually what Allaha represents? He may be having different names in different languases
why one should accept what is written in Arabic?

I can give more examples of such blind faith
which are not tested

sad hu
yes you definetly are a sad hu. Because you are a kaffir you are talking nonsense like this. It says in the quran that Allah will take care of all the kaffirs (non believers like you) and make them burn in hell.

How dare you question the authority of our holy Quran? Yes the Quran tells us that there is no God but Allah, yes the Quran tells us that Mohammed (pbuh) is his messanger and is the last messanger. We Muslims do not question what Allah tells us in the holy Quran, we submit ourselves to the allmighty Allah.

Let me tell you that the day is not too far away when the total human race will be the followers of Islam and even people like you will come to their senses. Only then this world will be a better place to live.

tauba tauba
I disagree with ur method of responding to sadhu when u say "how dare you question the authority of our Holy Quran". You have to realize that if one is a non-muslim, he WILL question everything that defines Islam, just like we as muslims will question everything that defines hinduism or any other religion. Its natural.

Sadhu
The two beliefs that you mentioned as blind, are not as blind to Muslims as you think them to be. In order to understand these beliefs, you would have to study Islam a little bit more. We believe in Prophet SAW as the last messenger based on the kind of message he brought to us, and the exemplary life he led in concurrance with that, in order to show us that he practiced what he preached. He brought forth to us a message (Holy Quran), which contains a constitution for each and every facet of our lives. If we take the time to read it, and understand it, it wont take us long to determine that its the right word, but you have to read it first.....and yes, by all means compare it with any other religious scripture, cause thats your right. Once you believe in the message that Prophet SAW brought forth, you automatically establish your belief in Allah SWT.

Akif

The holy Quran is delievered to mankind by Allah himself through his last prophet, Mohammed (pbuh). Therefore nobody has any authority to question the word of allah.

As far as questioning what defines hinduism, well, what exactly does define hinduism? statues? elephant Gods? monkey Gods? snake Gods? or the other millions of Gods?

Islam is the only way and we will have to struggle very hard to get the message across to the non believers. I will not tolerate anybody who dares to doubt our holy book.

[quote]
Originally posted by tauba tauba:
*I will not tolerate anybody who dares to doubt our holy book. *
[/quote]

And such intolerance is why Muslims carry the worldwide reputation that they do.

[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited September 26, 2000).]

GFQ - please understand that whatever I say from here on out is in the spirit of debate, and not meant to demean or belittle -

[quote]
Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh:
**
I think belief/faith, is more than an aspect of human nature, i think having something to believe in is a Need.
**
[/quote]

I disagree with this statement. I think that if a person were born in a society that had no idea of God, that such a person would not suddenly believe in a God simply because of some inherent Need. I believe that a belief in God satisfies an inherent need for Hope. For example, in our lives we the "human condition" - frustration with our lives, with the meaning of our lives, and with the lives of those around us. We "hope" that we can satisfy these frustrations, and I believe that a belief in God satisfies such hope.

[quote]
Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh:
**
Allah swt has created people distinct from animals, he has blessed us with a spirit—wherein we has the freedom of our mind and body, and a moral sense—a conscious if you will--with which to reason.
**
[/quote]

Again, I disagree with this statement. It assumes that animals have not been blessed with a spirit, with a freedom of mind and body, and a moral sense. Because we are unable to communicate with most animals, many people make these assumptions. However, a deeper study of animal psychology sees many parallels with humans in terms of community, intelligence, and even morality. Simply put, we have no idea if your dog (if you have a dog) prays to God or not. We only assume that he does not.

[quote]
Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh:
**
Hmmm alright atheists. Okay basically, an atheist is someone who denies the existence of God, so from where I stand I would be able to say—from my perspective--- someone who believes in the belief of unbelief. Therefore, you can see that an atheist also needs to possess faith, atheists cannot deny the existence of Allah swt, with evidence, with proof, hence their need for faith. **
[/quote]

Faith is a belief in something for which you have no proof. The atheist believes that there is no proof for God, and therefore believes there is no God. What you have said is that there is proof for God, and the atheist denies it, so therefore, the atheist believes in his faith, since there is no proof for his stance. This is somewhat circular logic. For some, the proof is easy - witness the miracle threads that Humble posted. For some, proof means much much more than simple signs, books, and prophets. And for the atheist, such proof simply does not exist. It does not mean the atheist denies the Truth. It means the atheist needs more proof of Truth, because converting from unbelief to belief is harder than simply strengthening belief.

[quote]
Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh:
**
Now here’s an another point, if it is me, a follower of islam, a muslim, that will end up as the one who is wrong, I will have lost nothing.
**
[/quote]

Now, this is a tougher one to refute, because it is mostly true - if Allah exists, you win, if there is no God, you don't lose. If there is no God, the question then, is, how much of your life have you wasted in this pursuit of God. How much more time could you have spent teaching your children, how much more time could you have spent studying and improving humanity through progress? Or, if there is no God, how much time have you spent misleading others along a path that they didn't particularly wish to follow? If there is no God, how moral is it to try to convert people to a relgious belief?

[quote]
Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh:
**
Therefore I believe in humanity, I submit to a way of life, that strives for the betterment of the individual and the community; to a religion that seeks for the unity of humanity. **
[/quote]

These are lofty goals, and I am impressed that you seek them. However, from where I stand, as an Indian Hindu, the Muslim tradition does not agree with you.

[quote]
Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh:
**
While, if someone who denies the existence of God, an atheist, ends up wrong in their conviction, they will be the ones who truly lose. **
[/quote]

Why? Why does the atheist truly lose? If the atheist is moral, if he has committed no crimes, if he has helped his fellow man along at all times, if he has striven for the betterment of himself and the community, why is he the loser? Truly, is the requirement of a belief in God such a necessity to reach the "hope" of a good afterlife? It would seem to me (and this is where you may have to moderate me), that such a belief is very spiteful, even hateful, of people with different beliefs, who have had different experiences, and seen different truths.

[quote]
Originally posted by Girl from Quraysh:
*I'm not sure what you mean by scrutiny. How can hardships be helpful in testing our faith?--hmmm, alright well what i meant was that every trial, every hardship gives us an opportunity to strengthen our iman--our faith, by developing sabr(patience) which is part of imaan. Here's a verse, umm from surah al imran i think...(its the translation)*Do you think that you will enter Heaven without God testing you (to see) who will struggle hard from among you, and who will remain patient?
**
[/quote]

From the outside looking in, such a verse seems to be a way to keep the masses in line. It's the "mysterious ways" argument - bad things happen to good people, and God is simply testing them. However, if a person does not believe that a merciful God could ever create such tests, then such a verse limits that sort of thought.

[This message has been edited by astrosfan (edited September 26, 2000).]

tauba tauba

You have to be a bit realistic. Of course noone has the authority to deny the word of Allah SWT, but thats our belief, and we (muslims) will be the only ones acting upon it. A non-muslim sitting at home wont take the Quran seriously unless he makes an educated effort to study it.

Im not bothered with what kind of figures are involved in hindu deity, and thats not supposed to define our approach to any religion. We as muslims, have to approach hindus the same way we approach christians or jews or anyone else for that matter. We have to realize that a hindu doesnt care about Islam just like we dont care about hinduism. When was the last time you or I read the Gita? And similarly, when was the last time a hindu read the Quran? So if we can safely assume that a non muslim has never read the Quran and doesnt believe in the message of Allah SWT, how can we expect Islamic values from them?

No doubt Islam is the only way, and the right way, but unfortunately, all the people in the world dont share that sentiment. And imposition of Islam upon non muslims isnt going to make them believe in it either. Heck, imposition doesnt even make a muslim strengthen his/her belief. How many times do we see people going to masjid just for the show? Anyway....my point was.....if we expect a nonmuslim to understand, respect, and accept the Islamic point of view, we have to show it to them, convince them of it, and win over their hearts, rather than do it by force or by threats. That only aggravates them.