Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

@ehsan

Americans are so confused:

1. They want Pakistan to fight their war and consider 70,000 pakistanis killed as collateral damage, but do not consider Pakistan as their ally.
   this is not fair…this is not the US war. it is not collateral damage by any means. This is 100% Pakistan war. 70K pakistanis were killed in Pakistan not in afghanistan. Pakistan army is not fighting in Afghanistan for US either. Pak army is fighting against tehrik takiban Pakistan TTP on paksiatni soil. plus TTP was created by Pakistan agencies in 90s to conduct proxy wars in Kashmir. Ilyas Kashmiri type commandos were leading these organizations and now they are at war against pak army as musharaff went hard on these snakes. so this is our mess and we are cleaning it. this is not US war.

2. The declare all Taliban are bad and should be eliminated but negotiate with them in Qatar because some of them are good taliban.
   Agreed. good point.

3. They want passage through Pakistan for which they pay and think it is aid.
   Billion dollar that US used to give to Pak was not only for the passage toll. over 60% of the money which US gave was for other reasons not passage toll. we took the money every year, used it for whatever purpose

4. They support TTP to create trouble in pakistan and turn a blind eye towards RAW operating from under their noses but want Pakistan to do more
   This at best is tit for tat. Pak after 2002 supported Afghan Taliban and haqqani leadrship and since 2009 USA is supporting TTP leadership in Afghanistan. no easy solution. tit for tat

5. They can find afghan Taliban guys in pakistan and drone them yet the TTP sitting under their noses cant be found.
   Please see no 4.

6. With all their might they are unable to finish off Taliban, Isis operating from Afghanistan and are afraid of Haqqani group which numbers no more than a few thousand. Doesnt say much for their military might
   Agreed but it is more about finding afghan taliban and haqqani leadership not fighters. once leadership is gone, easy to handle fighters.

good points but some are debatable. pls see my response in red. thx

[Captain1]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

@phoenixdesi

**Pakistan can and should tell Uncle J Trump your first priority is to protect the next generation of US young adults who are Overdosing on Drugs instead of deploying Hi Tech Armies against People who are riding motorcycles and horses who have no resources what so ever even to board a commercial flight into a neighboring country let alone go as far away as USA.

1. There was not a single Afghan on those planes that hit the towers on 9/11. all from Arab countries right?
   yes but Mullah omar and afghan taliban had allowed their land to be used by Al qaeda and osama for years. Qaeda had camps all over Afghanistan. They were warned many times but afghan taliban refused to listen. Pakistan, saudi Arabia nd UAE were also supporting Taliban officially in those days.****

2. The Afghans got played big time by Uncle Sam demanding they give up a Guest knowing all along that Pathan’s Ghairat does not allow them
   to give up a guest in their home no matter what!
   Afghan Ghairat…i see. well this afghan ghairat has been selling in rs on every corner of pakistan streets for years. wah wah kaya ghairat hai. Their women got raped all over the world, millions of innocent afghans were killed, whole afghan generation wasted while these afghan taliban leaderhsip kept on hiding in pakistan since 2002. kaya ghairat hai. and now a lot of people want Pakistan to show same ghaiarat. **

If you read back news those days, Taliban had agreed to handover OBL and cronies to a 3rd party if US shared the evidence, do you think it was wrong to ask for evidence?**

**

[mo293]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

@Captain1

If you read back news those days, Taliban had agreed to handover OBL and cronies to a 3rd party if US shared the evidence, do you think it was wrong to ask for evidence?**

**

You are right but please let me make some corrections

1. Taliban asked US for evidence - US refused
2. Taliban asked US to hand over the evidence to a 3rd party (Neutral) what ever the verdict Taliban will respect - US said “NO”

So you should know the credibility of US from its track record or respecting international laws.

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

@mo293

You are right but please let me make some corrections

1. Taliban asked US for evidence - US refused
2. Taliban asked US to hand over the evidence to a 3rd party (Neutral) what ever the verdict Taliban will respect - US said “NO”

So you should know the credibility of US from its track record or respecting international laws.

this is not right. Alqaeda attacked US and killed 3000 innocent people. Al qaeda was based right in Afghanistan soil under taliban patronage including osama bin laden and had many terrorist training camps there. From afghnaistan base, Alqaeda also launched otehr attcks on the USA before 911.

USA blamed Al qaeda and osama for these 3000 killings and demanded taliban to hand them over.

Anyway, taliban asked for 911 proof. there was no proof at that point and therefore Pak/Saudi/UAE (all 3 countries were close to taliban and officially recognized taliban) after consultation with USA proposed to taliban that instead of handing osama over to USA, taliban shd hand over osama and alqaeda leadership to a neutral thrird country such as UAE so that proper juidical case can be established. ISI generals went twice to meet Mullah Omar with this proposal. Mullah Omar absolutely refused it and asked for evidence against Osama before handing him over to anyone.

few weeks later, Afghanistan’s senior Muslim clerics adjusted their course, issuing an edict that said Osama bin Laden should be persuaded to leave the country. Mullah Omar refused to accept this verdict and repeated that Osama is a free man, our guest and unless USA provides us the proof, he will not be expelled.

Rest is history. Now if we think Mullah Omar did the right thing and wasted whole afghan generation in the mean process and got his women raped while hiding himself in Quetta, what can i say. He knew what osama and AQ was up to and shd have handed him over to a third country

Last but not least, in our hatred for the US, we shd stop twisting the hsotory. we need to be impartial so that we can analyze in best possible way and find the best solution to our problems

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

@Captain1

If you read back news those days, Taliban had agreed to handover OBL and cronies to a 3rd party if US shared the evidence, do you think it was wrong to ask for evidence?**

**

answered your question in post no 84. thx

[Chaudhry_sahab]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

In all this discussion do we remember where was Osama found ? 5 minutes walk from main gate of PMA. Where were most of the AQ leadership found ? In various cities of Pakistan. So all tihs looking backward is useless. Reality is this, Pak Army created Taliban for strategic depth, they failed. We can blame all we want but buck stops back at home. Since 2011 when Osama was found in Paksitan, the sentiment is quite harsh against Pakistan whether Republican or Democrat. India has grown its stature world wide while our army is still trying to control foreign and defense policies that have been failed. For those who think US has failed in Afg, really? I think they always wanted to establish a base in South Asia , which they have , a stable Afg/Pak is not in their interest and i think that is a success. Long story short, times have changed and we can show eyes to US or what not but when Osama was found in Abbottabad, all bets are off. Pakistan army now needs to really think do they want to live a false dream or wake up to new realities. I am afraid very soon there will be a Salala type incident, Drones will fly again. Can our Army do any thing about it, offcourse No, so perhaps change in course is needed.

[ehsan]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

@phoenixdesi

good points but some are debatable. pls see my response in red. thx

Sorry dont agree that ttp was only created by pak. It was the remnants of the “mujahdeen” created by US and also left them all the weapons. I dont remember any TTP or any other group created by Pak before 2002. It was after the mess created by the US in Afghanistan that this happened. They are responsible for the large number of deaths in Pakistan like the mess they create wherever they go be it Vietnam, cambodia, iraq, lebanon , innocents killed due to their actions are always collateral damage, never the fault of America.

If it is tit for tat than the general and his president should stop barking like a dog and get on with it.

The money they paid us was for all we were doing for them, Koi Ehsan nahin kiya, we suffered much more than what they gave us.

They cant even handle the ones which are creating trouble in afghanistan and they are looking for excuses for their failure. Is every guy who is fighting them in Afghanistan belongs to haqqani group. Obviously not, let them deal with them first then worry about Haqqani group. I have no sympathy with any of these groups but your US needs to get things in perspective and admit their abject failure in afghanistan.

[ehsan]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

@phoenixdesi

this is not right. Alqaeda attacked US and killed 3000 innocent people. Al qaeda was based right in Afghanistan soil under taliban patronage including osama bin laden and had many terrorist training camps there. From afghnaistan base, Alqaeda also launched otehr attcks on the USA before 911.

USA blamed Al qaeda and osama for these 3000 killings and demanded taliban to hand them over.

Anyway, taliban asked for 911 proof. there was no proof at that point and therefore Pak/Saudi/UAE (all 3 countries were close to taliban and officially recognized taliban) after consultation with USA proposed to taliban that instead of handing osama over to USA, taliban shd hand over osama and alqaeda leadership to a neutral thrird country such as UAE so that proper juidical case can be established. ISI generals went twice to meet Mullah Omar with this proposal. Mullah Omar absolutely refused it and asked for evidence against Osama before handing him over to anyone.

few weeks later, Afghanistan’s senior Muslim clerics adjusted their course, issuing an edict that said Osama bin Laden should be persuaded to leave the country. Mullah Omar refused to accept this verdict and repeated that Osama is a free man, our guest and unless USA provides us the proof, he will not be expelled.

Rest is history. Now if we think Mullah Omar did the right thing and wasted whole afghan generation in the mean process and got his women raped while hiding himself in Quetta, what can i say. He knew what osama and AQ was up to and shd have handed him over to a third country

Last but not least, in our hatred for the US, we shd stop twisting the hsotory. we need to be impartial so that we can analyze in best possible way and find the best solution to our problems

one question, does killing of 3000 people in twin towers, horrible and unacceptable as it was justifies killing hundred of thousands of innocent men, women and children in afghanistan and Iraq. Never heard any American showing any remorse for that. oops forgot they were collateral damage.

[ehsan]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

I am out of Politics section from now onwards and will confine myself to cricket section only.

[Captain1]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

@phoenixdesi

this is not right. Alqaeda attacked US and killed 3000 innocent people. Al qaeda was based right in Afghanistan soil under taliban patronage including osama bin laden and had many terrorist training camps there. From afghnaistan base, Alqaeda also launched otehr attcks on the USA before 911.

USA blamed Al qaeda and osama for these 3000 killings and demanded taliban to hand them over.

Anyway, taliban asked for 911 proof. **there was no proof at that point **and therefore Pak/Saudi/UAE (all 3 countries were close to taliban and officially recognized taliban) after consultation with USA proposed to taliban that instead of handing osama over to USA, taliban shd hand over osama and alqaeda leadership to a neutral thrird country such as UAE so that proper juidical case can be established. ISI generals went twice to meet Mullah Omar with this proposal. Mullah Omar absolutely refused it and asked for evidence against Osama before handing him over to anyone.

few weeks later, Afghanistan’s senior Muslim clerics adjusted their course, issuing an edict that said Osama bin Laden should be persuaded to leave the country. Mullah Omar refused to accept this verdict and repeated that Osama is a free man, our guest and unless USA provides us the proof, he will not be expelled.

Rest is history. Now if we think Mullah Omar did the right thing and wasted whole afghan generation in the mean process and got his women raped while hiding himself in Quetta, what can i say. He knew what osama and AQ was up to and shd have handed him over to a third country

Last but not least, in our hatred for the US, we shd stop twisting the hsotory. we need to be impartial so that we can analyze in best possible way and find the best solution to our problems

Really? Please read your own post. You said US blamed them, but at that time US was shouting AlQaida all around the world, shared “evidence” with UK (or was it for Iraq?). US blames an entity and that entity has no right for defense? Would that be acceptable if Pakistan blamed RAW for some incident in Pakistan and launched few big missile towards India, would that be okay? US had refused to accept OBL and evidence being handed over to 3rd country, not Taliban/Mullah Omar

[Geezer]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

@phoenixdesi

support Afghan taliban leadership in quetta/peshawar and then keep on denying it… and hell we are not even good at it and keep on getting busted.

A real liar is the one who is never caught.

We do get busted but you should know that Pakistan army never escaped criticism for that. They are the most criticized group even within Pakistan. Then the question arises is criticism enough, shouldn’t we be doing something about it?
The answer is people can’t directly do anything. Army cannot be simply destroyed but it can be brought under control and that is only possible if there is clean leadership with some legitimacy with people. The burden of choosing that leader lies with people which they are either unwilling or incapable to take due to lack of education.
If a strong leader with a character directs army to come clean on something, I am sure they will not refuse or face consequences.

Its all about doing first things first. Is it more feasible to go all out against a corrupt army and destroy the only institution this country has intact or try to fix the higher institution that should take everything under control?

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

@ehsan

I am out of Politics section from now onwards and will confine myself to cricket section only.

well you are out of luck sir jee…thx to PCB, there has been no cricket for Pakistan after champions trophy and there will be no meaningful cricket for some time while we will not be playing any cricket for good 7 months, WI, england, Bangladesh, Aus, India, South africa everyone is playing non stop…

[phoenixdesi]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

@Captain1

Really? Please read your own post. You said US blamed them, but at that time US was shouting AlQaida all around the world, shared “evidence” with UK (or was it for Iraq?). US blames an entity and that entity has no right for defense? Would that be acceptable if Pakistan blamed RAW for some incident in Pakistan and launched few big missile towards India, would that be okay? US had refused to accept OBL and evidence being handed over to 3rd country, not Taliban/Mullah Omar

Captain jee you are confusing 2 different events. USA and its domestic pet UK were sharing “evidence” on Iraq not Afghanistan. on Afghanistan, things occurred the way i laid out in my post. thx

[Captain1]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

@phoenixdesi

Captain jee you are confusing 2 different events. USA and its domestic pet UK were sharing “evidence” on Iraq not Afghanistan. on Afghanistan, things occurred the way i laid out in my post. thx

On 4 October the British government publicly released a document summarizing the evidence linking bin Laden to the attacks.

](United States invasion of Afghanistan - Wikipedia) lo ji, hor bolo? You can now doubt your “occurred the way i laid out” :chai:

[Doppleganger]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

The US war machine had started rumbling and w/o complete taliban capitulation, I doubt that the war could be solved.

US wanted to fix the problem and then some.

As for taliban, all they mostly know is fight, fight, fight like most afghans so this was an ideal situation for them. They can tell these stories to their grandkids as it isn’t like afghanistan is going to invent a new way to harness the energy of a black hole or dark matter.

Even the prosperous era of the sixties and seventies that saw afghan women in miniskirts didn’t industrialize the country unlike Pakistan and Iran in the neighborhood.

As Hassan Nisar quipped once, the afghan qaum is hungry (and devouring each other?) since they have hadn’t luck to invade to rape and pillage south asia or any of its other neighbors in recent history.

[novice75]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

Elements in Pak support militancy based on religious dogma. That is a dangerous strategy now proven again and again. Bearded thugs can’t be trusted with guns.

Declare war on religion based militancy. In any shape and all forms. It’s being proliferated in mosques and madrassas all over Pak. Save Pakistan before it turns to next Syria.

These are our problems. Forget Trump forget India forget Kashmir and please forget Afghanistan. Time to clean house, before all of us burn.

@Doppleganger

The US war machine had started rumbling and w/o complete taliban capitulation, I doubt that the war could be solved.

US wanted to fix the problem and then some.

As for taliban, all they mostly know is fight, fight, fight like most afghans so this was an ideal situation for them. They can tell these stories to their grandkids as it isn’t like afghanistan is going to invent a new way to harness the energy of a black hole or dark matter.

Even the prosperous era of the sixties and seventies that saw afghan women in miniskirts didn’t industrialize the country unlike Pakistan and Iran in the neighborhood.

As Hassan Nisar quipped once, the afghan qaum is hungry (and devouring each other?) since they have hadn’t luck to invade to rape and pillage south asia or any of its other neighbors in recent history.

[Doppleganger]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

The location of Pakistan is a blessing and a curse.

It can’t be aloof like America pre-WWII as other countries won’t stop doing their thing just because Pakistan decided to withdraw from the region. I think that Pakistan should make better choices wrt its immediate borders which would include standing firm on principles when it is required.

Nothing has happened yet but I want to see what the army would do if US decides to throw caution to the wind and decides to do air strikes let alone drone strikes. Trump is completely unpredictable and might actually do something crazy considering Pakistan’s gora worshiping when it comes to America. It even emboldened Iran to send drones that were shot down by PAF not so long ago.

[Captain1]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

@Doppleganger

The US war machine had started rumbling and w/o complete taliban capitulation, I doubt that the war could be solved.

US wanted to fix the problem and then some.

True that, US had been threatening Afghanistan for invasion since summer of 2001, so regardless of a decision the invasion was on anyways.

@Doppleganger

**As for taliban, all they mostly know is fight, fight, fight **like most afghans so this was an ideal situation for them. They can tell these stories to their grandkids as it isn’t like afghanistan is going to invent a new way to harness the energy of a black hole or dark matter.

Unfortunately same is true for US, they have to have a war going on.

[hanibal]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

Now US reminds me story/joke of an old rich land-lord who buys a new wife, and calls in his servant a young man to hold lantern…and blames his “failure” on the servant for not holding the lantern right!

well, Afghanistan seems to be the young wife here, Pakistan the young servant and USA is the old rich land-lord…who is blaming his failures on Pakistan not holding lantern right!!!

This is the whole story…

[Anwer_Pasha]

Re: Trump blames Pakistan for Afghan mess

And finally
Running where?

**&
**

https://tse1.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.qmaIyzVtbFeuBS-_UP8JdgEsDH&pid=15.1&P=0&w=226&h=152

US attaches new conditions to pledged military aid