I dont think the Pakistan army is even close to a position where they would surrender. They could literally wipe off waziristan if they wanted to.
Well that is a qustion out of mind. if they could then why didnt they do it? well bro i rekon it has now been cleared that who is the WINNER and who is the LOSER or SUREENDERER!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Aryan_Shponkai: *
Well that is a qustion out of mind. if they could then why didnt they do it? well bro i rekon it has now been cleared that who is the WINNER and who is the LOSER or SUREENDERER!
[/QUOTE]
Aryan bro, I dont think they surrendered. Its ironic, is they chose the civilized way out, and negotiate with the tribal elders, they are termed as the 'loosers', and if they go ahead and take the violent way, they are termed as 'butchers'.
Its not about who lost of who won. The operation was a success for Pakistan as the foreign militants have co-operated and handed themselves over, realising that they need to abide by the laws of the land or be kicked out.
The news from Wana is promising. Five most wanted militants have surrendered to the army as a result of an agreement brokered by the tribal jirga. The agreement provides for amnesty to the militants who are ready to lay down their arms and promise to abide by the laws of the country. Even before the launch of the military operation in South Waziristan to root out foreign militants, President Musharraf had held out an assurance of total amnesty to those willing to end their defiance and hand themselves over to the state. The Wana denouement is, thus, in consonance with the policy guideline set forth by the president.
**This policy is aimed at employing minimum, or only necessary, military power and instead seeking a political resolution of a sensitive issue by involving the tribal jirga and political representatives. This policy seems to have worked well and its success, doubtless, is proof of the government’s astute handling of a delicate issue. **
What transpired in Wana in the form of the surrender of five militants can be traced back to the President Musharraf’s address to the tribal gathering, in which he sought tribal maliks’ cooperation in the military operation against the 600-700 foreign elements in South Waziristan. Support did come in the form of a tribal lashkar, which, however, could not prove effective, as it succumbed to militants’ firepower.
Paramilitary troops and regular army jawans were then called upon to flush out the entrenched warriors. This operation was necessitated by the fact that the foreign elements in the tribal areas had imperiled Pakistan’s security and also strained its relations with Afghanistan. The presence of foreign elements militated against Pakistan’s policy of dismantling terrorists’ networks. In any case, like every other country, Pakistan cannot allow foreign elements without legal papers to stay in the country.
Before initiating the military operation, the president announced that Pakistan would not hand over any militant who voluntarily surrendered to the army to any foreign country. No voluntarily surrender was made. Nor could the tribal lashkar flush them out. A precise military operation was thus the only option left with the state to deal with the intransigent militants. A parallel track was however followed which included involvement of tribal leaders and elected representatives of these areas in the mediatory efforts.
**The two-pronged strategy has produced results, as illustrated by the surrender of the five most wanted militants, and the pledge to uphold Pakistan’s interests. It is pertinent to mention here that almost every tribal agency is supporting the government in its effort to cleanse the tribal belt of aliens, which is why the drive is focused only on a small area in South Waziristan. **
The tribal belt of Pakistan is extremely backward. This is so because tribal attitudes, taboos and customs have prevented the spread of education. Moreover, tribal maliks have been averse to any development in their areas, as they fear that it might empower the people. In view of these facts, Prime Minister Jamali announced a package of seven billion rupees to develop these areas.
In the backdrop of the Wana development, what needs to be understood is that every step taken by President Musharraf and Prime Minister Jamali in the war against terrorism has only one purpose: save Pakistan from every threat.
It is because of the efficacy of these polices that 86 percent Pakistanis have rated President Pervez Musharraf favourably. According to a recent report published by the Washington-based Pew Research Centre, 60 percent Pakistanis view President Musharraf ‘very favourably’. This was ‘by far the highest rating of any leader in the survey’, said the poll director. Indeed, this high approval rating for Musharraf is a public stamp of approval on his anti-terror policy. The Wana event is likely to enhance the public faith in his and Jamali government’s resolve to combat militancy
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
I dont think the Pakistan army is even close to a position where they would surrender. They could literally wipe off waziristan if they wanted to.
[/QUOTE]
Well said, Spock! We need to make these people understand that we mean business, but we are the same people. Why should we fight... Sarhad residents should either consider themself's part of Pakistan or atleast not hurt pakistani intrests...
It happens. If an army tries to solve problems with brute force that should have been fixed through diplomacy. The damage has been inflicted.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by shawaiz: *
It happens. If an army tries to solve problems with brute force that should have been fixed through diplomacy. The damage has been inflicted.
[/QUOTE]
If you had been following the whole saga, you would have noticed that our govt (Pres Mush) opted for diplomacy first, but these foreign militants thought they were tough. And thus Laaton kay bhoot, bhaaton say nahin maantay. And look now, they saw what was coming for them and they are surrendering.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by ChannMahi: *
When a fugitive, a criminal who has just killed 60 of army comrades is offered colorful garlands by the army officers for his offer to just show up and be pardoned for all his past activities(read killing fellow armymen), it is very clear who surrendered.
[/QUOTE]
This isn't the Golden Temple in India Chanmahi. Indira had to teach those sikh insurgents a lesson and it was for the good of the country that they raised the white flag after getting their asses well and truly kicked in their own holy stronghold.
Pakistan army has the firepower to bomb Waziristan to rubble...but as has been pointed out already, it's easier for Americans to do that to a bunch of ragheads in some distant land then go home, but Pakistan has to think long term in it's own interests. The only way to subdue the region would have been massive air strikes while troops stay back in American style...therebye reducing casualties. Why take that route when an initial show of force followed by negotiations can get the desired results?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by 5Abi: *
If you had been following the whole saga, you would have noticed that our govt (Pres Mush) opted for diplomacy first, but these foreign militants thought they were tough. And thus Laaton kay bhoot, bhaaton say nahin maantay. And look now, they saw what was coming for them and they are surrendering.
[/QUOTE]
They did not surrender did they? They all get blanket amnesty for killing dozens of Pak fauj, some of whom were murdered in cold blood. The surrendered people still say they owe allegiance ot Mulla Omar and praised Taliban and al-Qaida. They also said that they will continue to do jihad against Americans.
They get to do everything they did in the past. Nek Mohammed has been responsible for killing 400 people, as that report said and he says he will do the same again. US is not going to be silent.
Why do you think they are building an airbase in Paktika near Pak border?Next time, US troops will do the job, given that Pak troops seem intent on pardoning all terrorists.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_28-4-2004_pg3_1
Tell-tale airstrip in Paktika
The Americans have started putting on ground a full-fledged airstrip right next to the Pakistan border in Paktika capable of landing C-130 transport planes. From this one may surmise that the Americans’ war against the remnants of the Taliban is not going well and they are seeking to beef up their forces. One might also conclude that they are not satisfied completely with Pakistan’s efforts at preventing the Taliban-Al Qaeda elements based in Pakistan’s tribal borderlands from striking inside Afghanistan. That may explain why the American reaction from Kabul to the Pakistan army’s ‘agreement’ in Wana which put a stop to the military operation in Waziristan has been lukewarm. **The expectation in Kabul is still that Pakistan ‘should do more’, notwithstanding the huffing and puffing of the Pakistani Foreign Office spokesman. **That is probably why the same Foreign Office in Islamabad had to reiterate the government’s commitment to fight terrorism after the Wana agreement and General Pervez Musharraf discussed the Wana Operation and his anti-terrorism commitment with his formation commanders in the GHQ in Rawalpindi.
What are the implications of an American airstrip a few miles from the border with South Waziristan? The US planes have flown in heavy equipment directly from Germany and the new landing facility will be ready in four days. The most obvious reason for the airstrip is that Paktika remains the toughest terrain on which to fight the Taliban elements. The need to land fresh troops at short notice is one obvious objective. The area is next to the Pakistani region repeatedly associated by the US ambassador in Kabul with Taliban incursions. The plan may be to rely less on Pakistan for stopping these incursions and build up an independent capability to interdict any attacks emanating from the area straddling the Pak-Afghan border. Incidentally this is the area where Osama bin Laden and his commanders are supposed to be in hiding.
Once there is an operational airstrip in Paktika, incidents other than those related to the objective of interdiction will obviously take place. All kinds of large American planes will land there too, if not for overnight stationing then for tactical purposes. **A plane taking off so close to the Pakistani border may even over-fly Pakistani territory, especially when chasing the Taliban invaders. **There is enough satellite vigilance over Pakistan already; in future the airstrip will narrow down the response time and make US troops available for quick operations. While the new landing facility violates no agreement with Pakistan, it does imply a partial lifting of reliance on Pakistan to bag the Al Qaeda-Taliban elements. It also creates the dangerous possibility of American operations on the Pakistani side of the border in hot pursuit of the Taliban. There are reports that Washington has set a deadline for the capture of Osama bin Laden in July this year. The new facility will surely shore up the American ability to pursue him in an extremely difficult terrain.
The ‘deal’ made by the army with the Wazir warriors Nek Muhammad and others has been understood in different ways in different quarters. The official stance has been that the locals have been given amnesty on the pledge of loyalty but the foreigners have still to give themselves up by April 30. The official spokesman also said that the army would not leave the area till the foreigners have done the needful. Equally, the speech made by corps commander Peshawar General Safdar Hussain was significant in as much as it presented the opposition point of view of the US-led operation in Afghanistan after 9/11. This is significant because just before that the Foreign Office in Islamabad was involved in a spat with the US ambassador in Kabul after he had hinted that Pakistan needed to do more to net the terrorists. Juxtapose this with the fact that the anti-American opposition in Pakistan has been clearly very pleased with the outcome of the Wana Operation (especially since opposition MNAs brokered the deal with Nek Muhammad who was heard by reporters to reconfirm his allegiance to the Taliban leader Mulla Umar after the deal with General Safdar Hussain) and one can understand the apprehensions that must have arisen in Kabul and Washington.
Washington has always helped put down speculations about ‘disagreements’ between the US military commanders in Afghanistan and Islamabad. The good noises are still being made, but the Paktika airstrip seems to point to a discreet parting of the ways.** This could be problematic for Pakistan in time to come. **
From the article posted by 5abi above:
[QUOTE]
The two-pronged strategy has produced results, as illustrated by the surrender of the five most wanted militants, and the pledge to uphold Pakistan's interests.
[/QUOTE]
5abi,
Please tell me how the surrendered people are "upholding Pakistan's interests" when they:
Still pledge allegiance to Mullah Omar
Deny that there are foreigners in the area
Still vow to do jihad against US troops in Afghanistan
Are any of the above in Pakistan's interests?
Khilaari,
These tribals can pledge allegiance to Mullah Omar or anyone else, if Pakistan bombs them you'll get people like Imdad Ali claiming we are butchering them but if they get bombed to buggery by the US those critics won't mind.
People like Imdad disapprove of 99.9% of all actions taken by Pak govt. 
That still doesn’t stop them from doing what they want to do, right?
How much longer before that dufus Khal-(mentally)ill-zad starts blaming us for cross border attacks by the likes of Nek Mohammed? This time we have press statements by Nek-idiot where he proudly says he will do jihad against Americans right next to him being garlanded by Corps Commander Peshawar. 
US is under pressure to do something. Better us fighting the malcontents than US forces in our territory, no?
People like imad… 
YOu guys in Waziristan needed a thrashing, it was a long time overdue!
SO how does it work. SOme criminals/terrorists in Pakistan kill 80 pakistani soldiers and the offending chief culprit is showered in flowers by the Pakistani general for killing his 80 men. Is it a cultural thing? Just curious.
I think the soldiers killed were sent from their own area. The soldiers who died in this operation were killed by their own tribesmen on account of some foreigners who haven't got the balls to fight from their own lands. That's the message that was sent and will prove a major breakthrough in days to come.
So pakistani soldiers that are killed in the area from where they are hailed from are justiable losses and the price worth paying to ensure that these areas don;t get any bad ideas?
what up with the haar thingie?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Spock: *
Aryan bro, I dont think they surrendered. Its ironic, is they chose the civilized way out, and negotiate with the tribal elders, they are termed as the 'loosers', and if they go ahead and take the violent way, they are termed as 'butchers'.
[/QUOTE]
Spocki Bro, well i and the world thinks they did. The loser side is the one who choses to surrender through negociations and calm everything down when they realize that they will be taught a lesson if they go ahead.
Ohh yeah CIVILSED? when they comprehended that they might be the losers so beta sort it out through TRIBAL system otherwise the 70 000 army would've been wiped out ages ago.
and i dont get ur butcher thing..who are you tipping that at? are u saying that the army can also be as harsh as BUTCHERS or what?
bro wat you are saying is not a fact. the PAKI army wanted a defeat so the decided to come to our TRIBAL AREAS and taste our war style. and there you go the outcome was DEFEAT of PAKI army and WIN of the TRIBESMEN. Mashallah this was full of PROUD.
You know arrorgance is the worst enemy man can have, the army was arrogant and faced heavy losses because of thier underestimation of the defensive strategys of the sarhad tribe’s.
But one on one, those same tribesmen stand nochance. The tribesmen are nothing more then wind-bags who need to be taught a lesson. Its a pitty we lost 80 men during the actions… But in all honesty considering the field tactics deployed by the Pakistan army i am disgusted we didnt go for a long range observation and strike policy.
The tribesmen conducted standard hit and run tactics that can bring the most powerful organised and diciplined infantry units to a standstill. Ie: Iraq!
One on one, a Tribesmen can never match the dicipline and fighting prowess of a Army soldier!
MAtsui: YOur posts make no sense!
PAKISTAN ZINDABAD!
