Re: ''Traditions''
Exactly. It may seem like people are more attached to their religion in the UK/US where there's so much controversy about the religion but really, looking at the bigger picture, the present generation is nowhere near as close to Islam as the previous generations might have been.
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Re: ''Traditions''
I'm assuming from the above comments that this thread is about the rukhsati tradition? If that has nothing to do with Islam then neither does dating, dancing, extravagant mehendis, and other pointless customs which seem to be very popular with the present generation.
And we know for a fact that the next generation is going to deviate further from Islam since we're told that Islam will become worn out and it has been slowly but surely.
Actually we have three types of people. First who are totally liberal (they are totally impressed with western traditions) who thinks that religion should be obsolete from the society. Second who are totally Mulahs. Third are 'US" who are moderately adopting Islam and trying to end all these stupid traditions. Actually people who are balancing Islam and Duniya are hope for Pakistan.
As far as Rukhsati is concerned.. yes its just a tradition not a religious thing. It irritates me when people pointing fingers on a couple who is nikahfied but not yet "Rukhsatify" but their own daughters dance in weddings where there is no segregation and when someone say something about those girls they say "ary bachy hain shadi main shughal ker rahy hain" but they can't tolerate married couple who is meeting before Rukhsati. We are very badly mixing up Islam and traditions and in this way we are deviating from Islam and following more religiously traditions.
In following traditions, they spend millions of rupees in Mehndi and Mayoon which is not religious things. Dholki's are becoming new tradition as well.
In traditions and Religion, people have double standards........ really irritating.
(i know my reply is very random, but it is very interesting and vast topic and i am running out of words to explain my point :p)
Re: ''Traditions''
Many of our traditions do not contradict with Islam. The concept of joint family and living with in-laws is our tradition which has nothing to do with Islam. Thus I do not see any reason to blindly reject ALL traditions. Of course we can bring changes for traditions which are against Islam. But traditions are what make each nation and community different. Arabs have many traditions which we Pakistanis do not have and these make them distinctive.
The point is that we should see whether these traditions are against Islam or not. If yes, we should work to change them. If not, no harm in continuing these traditions. They are the beauty of us being Pakistanis and make us distinctive. E.g. spending huge amounts on functions like Mayon is a waste and against Islam but asking the bride to be to sit mayon, using ubtan and stay away from meeting husband to be is not against Islam and provides a unique feature in our weddings, so there is no harm in following the Mayon rasam but of course within the Islamic limits.
The purpose of traditions is to give distinctive flavour to a nation and we cannot deny their importance.
Re: ''Traditions''
Next time I go to Pak im taking my jeans with me.
Re: ''Traditions''
phatti huwi jeans
Corrected.
Re: ''Traditions''
You guys are talking about the emphasis placed on the understanding of Islam by the present generation (or a certain proportion of it). I am talking about the level of devotion, the level of imaan, the strictness with which we practise Islam. I am talking about the bigger picture, the world as a whole. I am not talking about you or you or you so please don't be taking this personally. I'm saying, in general, are the muslim countries really following Islam properly? The answer isn't very complicated.
Re: ‘‘Traditions’’
Mayoon is not religious thing at all then how can you celebrate it within Islamic limits. If one thing is not in Islam how can you justify it within Islamic limits:khums:
Re: ''Traditions''
You guys are talking about the emphasis placed on the understanding of Islam by the present generation (or a certain proportion of it). I am talking about the level of devotion, the level of imaan, the strictness with which we practise Islam. I am talking about the bigger picture, the world as a whole. I am not talking about you or you or you so please don't be taking this personally. I'm saying, in general, are the muslim countries really following Islam properly? The answer isn't very complicated.
Thats why i said in generally... Either people are more liberal in Islamic countries or more Mulahs. People who are moderate in believes are actually true followers of Islam. They are good in balancing "Deen and Duniya" which is according to Islam.
Re: ‘‘Traditions’’
Applying ubtan to bride is NOT against Islam and you can consider this as a mayon rasam. Without the mixed gathering, music and dance, mayon rasam can be held within Islamic limit just for the sake of our traditions if you feel like doing it. If not, its upto you.
Nikah’s celebration is also NOT in Islam but we all know baraat function is hosted by the bride’s side in Pakistan. This is wrong but still our tradition. If a bride’s family cannot afford it, they can easily omit it. Valima is important is Islam.
Why don’t we give importance to changing traditions like baraat, jehaiz etc more than trying to insist on the importance of Nikah (which is a valid argument but does not harm anybody)? I feel things like Baraat, jehaiz, mixed gatherings etc should be changed first if we want to bring any positive change in the traditions in Pakistan. Over time, we will be able to change the thinking about the non-importance of rukhsati.
Re: ''Traditions''
I don't think anyone would claim that dating, dancing yadda yadda has anything to do with Islam. However, the rukhsati tradition has been given a religious like significance with people making a halal think sound haram.
exactly...and i fail to understand why we forget that islam specifically forbids us to make haram what is halaal to us
Re: ''Traditions''
:) par harmay gharoon ke lariyan jawwbein nahi kartien
Re: ''Traditions''
Well I think most people can make thier minds up for themselves on this matter.
Basically I believe in traditions and hold to them dearly, especailly if those Traditions help one preserve an Identity and ones Life.
For example in days before my ancestors came to the fold of Islam we practiced all sorts of ill things.... but we also had many positive skills too, particulalry the skill of staying alive and fending off threats to our survival both natural and human.
Islam is simple and one should be aware of the halal and haram. If a tradition is clearly Haram then it should be given up, particularly if its detrimental to Islam and ones survival as a nation... child infanticide, ritual sacrifice of humans, cannablism, raids on innocents etc were the norm before Islam. Islam basically brought it some rules to stop all that from happening and Allah ka shukar it does not happen so commonly anymore.
As for traditions that niether contradict Islam nor detriment it such as Sciences and Arts, Food, Clothing style etc so long as it is within the scope of Islam it's fine.
Anything that cant be fitted into the scope has to be balanced and the psoitive and negative must be wieghed and decided upon. If the negative outwieghs the positive then it should be scrapped otherwise let it stay.
For example celebrating Weddings and other ceremonies is niether haram nor halal... it has to be balanced. So you can dance but so long as you uphold Islamic decency for example... same applies to rules not just in Islam.
Islam is not a faith of opression it's very tolerant and you just have to know the levels of tolerance which are set, but there is plenty of scope in those tolerances for sensible people to make sense of. :)
Re: ''Traditions''
once again i would like to point out joint family system and living with in-laws is undesirable in islam... that is not to say that you should think of your in laws as evil etc just that living in a joint system or with in laws is islamically undesirable (that is not to say its a sin or you're required not to practice it just that its not desirable) so i dont see how u can say that has nothing to do with islam ... i would strongly suggest you read ahadith to find out about the islamic stance on joint families and in laws
and like i said in the other thread i do agree with u that there is no harm in following traditions that r not against islam but again that raises question: do you include traditions that may be islamically undesirable or are we just concerned with those that are blatantly against islam and its ok to follow those that are just islamically undesirable ? and the other question is where to you draw the linewhen following traditions for which you can find neither support nor opposition in islam. how much value should be placed on tradition versus religion?
Many of our traditions do not contradict with Islam. The concept of joint family and living with in-laws is our tradition which has nothing to do with Islam. Thus I do not see any reason to blindly reject ALL traditions. Of course we can bring changes for traditions which are against Islam. But traditions are what make each nation and community different. Arabs have many traditions which we Pakistanis do not have and these make them distinctive.
The point is that we should see whether these traditions are against Islam or not. If yes, we should work to change them. If not, no harm in continuing these traditions. They are the beauty of us being Pakistanis and make us distinctive. E.g. spending huge amounts on functions like Mayon is a waste and against Islam but asking the bride to be to sit mayon, using ubtan and stay away from meeting husband to be is not against Islam and provides a unique feature in our weddings, so there is no harm in following the Mayon rasam but of course within the Islamic limits.
The purpose of traditions is to give distinctive flavour to a nation and we cannot deny their importance.
Re: ''Traditions''
Joint family system is not islamic because your dewar etc might see you in compromising situations?
Re: ''Traditions''
Joint family system is not islamic because your dewar etc might see you in compromising situations?
yes
Re: ''Traditions''
You guys are talking about the emphasis placed on the understanding of Islam by the present generation (or a certain proportion of it). I am talking about the level of devotion, the level of imaan, the strictness with which we practise Islam. I am talking about the bigger picture, the world as a whole. I am not talking about you or you or you so please don't be taking this personally. I'm saying, in general, are the muslim countries really following Islam properly? The answer isn't very complicated.
No. They aren't. If they were, if they were doing everything with the "level of of devotion, the level of imaan, the strictness" that you mention, then half the problems that are discussed in Life1 wouldn't exist in our society. Just because one prays 5 times a day doesn't mean they follow everything else that is decreed in the religion.
Re: ''Traditions''
Joint family system is not islamic because your dewar etc might see you in compromising situations?
As discussed before a billion and one times, joint family system is undesirable because of the concept of mehram and hijab. In a joint family system that can't happen because other than the husband and children, no one is the wife's mehram.
Re: ‘‘Traditions’’
hmm…IMO most (if not all) shaadi traditions are pure BS…
but i wouldn’t pick only part of the traditions and call it crap…i would call ALL of it…that includes the 'Extravagant" factor, expensive wedding clothes, songs, dancing, and all those things…
Its really funny how some people here go all nuts over Brother in Law mehram issue, or rukhsati…and then go on to advice people on which song to play in which part of the wedding event…or which designer clothes you should buy and the rest of the stuff like that… 
On topic of people becoming more islamized or less than previous generations…i think there are 2 types of young ones…
Those that go towards ‘new values’ n the 'modern. way of doing things…like totally taking islam out of picture…
and there is a LOT of people who are moving towards islam…as the education has caught on…people are educating themselves,as opposed to getting it from molvi saab’… and a lot of young people are more aware of islam than their parents were at a similar age.
Re: ‘‘Traditions’’
Thats what I am saying. Islam should not be followed what is considered convenient and good for you and leaving the part which you don’t like. If you are so willing to follow Islamic concept of nikah, then you should be following complete hijab, no mixed gathering, no lavish weddings, no dowry, no wedding rasams etc. But if you are following these ‘traditions’, then why complaining when our elders ask us to respect the tradition of rukhsati.
Similarly, if you don’t want to care for the in-laws, then you will be living like an obedient wife to husband asking for his permissions for even going outside the house. Its not that you only practice the ‘care for in-laws is not farz on DIL’ but when it comes to following other aspects of married life, you just say its against women’s rights etc.
Its just that people like to follow parts of Islam which they LIKE and leave the part which they don’t saying that our traditions are against Islam.
Musalman banna hai tau POORI TARAH bano. Stop using Islam only for your benefit and leaving the part where there is strictness.
Re: ''Traditions''
As discussed before a billion and one times, joint family system is undesirable because of the concept of mehram and hijab. In a joint family system that can't happen because other than the husband and children, no one is the wife's mehram.
I am talking about joint family as in living with parents in laws or keeping them with you.