Re: Top 10 reasons why Muslim men dont keep beards
aray Fraudiayay…
ab rakh bhee lo na darhee yaar…
aur agar naheen rakhnee tau doosron kee jaan tau chor dau…
Sheru…
choro bhai…is nay man-na naheen heay…yeah bara sakht jhagralu heay…
is ko QALO SALAMA kardo…
.
Re: Top 10 reasons why Muslim men dont keep beards
[quote=“sherafghan”]
Scholars have interpreted a lot of things, just because scholars are not infallible doesn’t mean that we throw out what they are saying.
The scholars of islam spend so much time learning the religion, that is why we are told to refer to scholars about things we don’t know (from the Quran). **
and if scholars’s interpretations were on teh mark we would nto have different schools f thought 
**And if Hikmah is not sunnah, then what else could it be?
The fact that Allah told the Prophet to teach us Hikmah (apart from the Quran), means that there’s more to Islam than just the Quran. **
Hikmah could also be explanation of what is in quran, or elaboration, e.g. how to pray salat, etc etc. Now that does not mean that everything that the prophet says or does is part and parcel of religion and farz. he slept on a particular type pof mattress on the floor, start doing that as well.
If you are using the argument that there are weak ahadith, then are you not worried that you will lose out on this Hikmah that Allah speaks of in the Quran?
I am trying to balance that with incorporating stuff as part and parcel of religion that it is not.
**Regarding the concept of time, this is an issue in usul ul fiqh. The wordings of Ahadith are such that some refer to a particular situation, others refer to all situations. I don’t know much about this, but I do know that in usul ul fiqh there is a distinction about such things. **
yah but usul has its limitations, its again scholars human opinion of what they think the time aspect of something is, so yet again it is not infalluble.
**Back to authenticity of hadith, why would you ignore those saheeh ahadith which are mutawatir?
I can understand that you may want to ignore the ones which are Ahad but what about the Mutawatir ones? **
I am not the only one who wants to ignore ahad hadeeth, as a matter of fact the cmpilers threw out many ahad, AND many mutawatir ahadeeth. the hadeeth that are considered saheeh are the best human effort of people who put them together generations after the statements were made. even excluding all cultural and personal biases, the probability that its as accurate or as complete as ppl think it is, is very low.
even in case of mutawatit hadeeth, the person quoted is the listener, the source says, this is what I heard from the prophet. even in case of mutawatir hadeeth, different narration chains basically may say the same thing but differently, and the compilor then either chose one or gave footnotes to what other ways it has been stated. but it does not have information on what the prophets views were on the time or occassion bounf nature of a particular saying.
** There would have been a lot of problems today if the scholars would not have classified ahadith. If I were to ignore all ahadith then how would I make the Prophet a judge in arguments betweeen me and you? **
there would be indeed, but the classification indicates that alll hadeeth are not correct or complete, and when an element of doubt has ben introduced by scholars and compilors themselves, how is the public not supposed to question it. Even the compilors always said that they did the best that they could but could not vouch for teh acccuracy of everythign that they did.
** I am just curious to know what the wording of that particular Ayah is, would you mind quoting it? **
look it up in (15:9).
** I meant fard and wajib are the same as in, they have to be done. If you are a scholar of fiqh then you need to worry about the exact distinction between the two.**
why does a wajib need to be done. if it needs to be done then why did not god just state so?
**About sunnah, you are using your hanafi interpretation to understand what i said. I didn’t mean that the hanafi sunnah moaqida/ghair moaqida equals nafil in the other madhab. **
I am not a hanafli, shafai, maliki or whatever. I just think that sunnah is not required, its a nice to do, an added bonus of sorts but you dont have to follow all sunnah t have a complete faith and practice of religion.
** How do you know this, are you sure?
It’s kind of sad that you’ll have to go through Ahadith to verify this, but then again there’s the authenticity factor.**
No, because if somethign was farz is would have ben stated as farz and not some later made up word which serves a stand-in for farz, either it is farz or its not. and wajib is not farz.
** Me and you are prone to errors moreso than Imam Shafi. I am not saying that he is infallible, all I am saying is that I’d rather trust his judgement than my own or of any other scholar living today (at least in the fundamentals of Islam).**
well other imams disagreed with imam shafai, so yes while theoretically you or I may be more error prone then him, there is a chance that he is incorrect on a number of fronts and that someone can question it.
** Other schools exist because of different interpretations. Different interpretations existed even in the time of the Prophet. The Prophet did indicate on occasion that two different interpretations of something were both correct.
There are also instances where the Prophet wanted to do something and some Sahabi wanted something else, and then an Ayah would come down approving what the Sahabi wanted. Again, to verify all this you need to go through Ahadith.**
lets set aside the issue of interpretatons during the time of the prophet and those that he agreed to that there are different ways. lets look at interpretations afterwards where diff groups say one is the right way and the other is not. yes you go thru ahadeeth, they are a good source of information, you have to eb careful and you have to not take them at face value. because there are issues with authenticity, there are issues with completeness, there are issues with context etc.
** Actually consensus of the scholars is good enough, there is a hadith approving this. **
and I pointed out that when scholasr disagree then what happens, thus the consensus of the scholars is not infallible either. and goin back to the hadeeth that talks about consensus of scholasr being infallible, again how are we interpretuing that hadeeth, what did the hadeeth mean by scholars and what did it mean, theat they are able to gain consensus on stuff like new medical treatment and organ donation type of topics or that they have the power to make something farz?
** Just because they are fallible doesn’t mean that you stop following them. I mean the Prophet did make mistakes in his lifetime, so are you going to stop following his teachings, is this why you ignore hadith?**
Nope I do nto ignore hadeeth. the emotional blackmail of this last comment of yours is not going to work. I respect and read hadeeth, and I try to derive meaning from them, understanding that there are many weaknesses in the hadeeth because they do not paint a complete picture because theya re filtered through ppl and becsause the context is missing in many cases one has to be careful.
The point again is that farz is farz and has been noted in quran and even hadeeth many times as in what is farz. if someone is going to take some othe rpractice and then call it wajib and then equate it with farz, then that is beyond me.
** So who do you refer to, if you are not going to trust the scholars? **
you dont blindly trust the scholars. you use their knowledge, you use their interpretation, but again scholars can not add anythign to religion. schlasr can not say a beard is a farz and it becomes a farz.
Allah says in the Quran to go to the scholars if we don’t know about something, if you put your trust in Allah and in His Book then you have to go to scholars, right?
umm could you quote that and the conext of that?
sure I have no problem going to scholars on interpretation, or getting their views when it comes to things that were not around back then but impact us today e.g. blood donation, or IVF, or organ transplants etc. But scholars can not make a new farz from what I know.
Re: Top 10 reasons why Muslim men dont keep beards
aray Fraudiayay…
aray antumulay
ab rakh bhee lo na darhee yaar…
rozana rakhta hoon, tum art time musalman sirf aik dafa rakhtay o. from 6:30 a.m. one day to 6:30 a.m. the enxt day, I keep a darrhi.
**aur agar naheen rakhnee tau doosron kee jaan tau chor dau…
**
agar doosray meri jaan chorr daen. what do u expect that I should not respnd
Re: Top 10 reasons why Muslim men dont keep beards
^ ho tum baray jhagralu...ab tau sabit ho gaya...
Allah bachayay
itna jhagra tau puranee aurtain bhee naheen karteen theen....
ab jhagra bas karo
Re: Top 10 reasons why Muslim men dont keep beards
You do realize that we are not responsible for the mistakes of the scholars. But we are responsible for going to the scholars, the trusted ones.
Like I said there are instances where two different interpretations can both be correct.
I know the scholar's are fallible, but what do you propose we should do? Obviously a scholar is more knowledgable than the average Muslim, so who else do you go to, to get the right interpretation?
And this is your interpretation. Who is more likely to have a more sound interpretation the scholars of Islam or Fraudz?
Again, sleeping on the floor for example was not ordered by the Prophet. This does not effect one's Aqeedah either. So, it is sunnah. The Prophet also lived a very poor lifestyle, that doesn't mean that all the muslims have to go poor unless if he specifically commanded it which he didn't
On the other hand, the Prophet did tell the muslims to do certain things where some were specific to that situation and others were for everyone.
Is this your interpretation again?
That's why there's a difference of opinion on certain matters. Then there are other matters which have consensus of the scholars.
even in case of mutawatit hadeeth, the person quoted is the listener, the source says, this is what I heard from the prophet. even in case of mutawatir hadeeth, different narration chains basically may say the same thing but differently, and the compilor then either chose one or gave footnotes to what other ways it has been stated. but it does not have information on what the prophets views were on the time or occassion bounf nature of a particular saying.
There also those ahadith which are mutawatir even in their wording.
You are thinking of only those which are mutawatir in their meaning.
Well you can make the same argument about the Quran. The vowel marks in the Quran, and even the dots on the letters were added in later some time. The two oldest copies of the Quran don't have these markings. I think Hajjaj ibn Yusuf made these additions, and he himself was an oppressive ruler. What makes you trust him?
That Ayah says that Allah will preserve the Dhikr, the interpretation of Dhikr is the Quran. Are you sure that this interpretation is correct?
I don't know, you have to refer to God for that information. I can't answer on behalf of Allah.
All I know is He told us to obey the Messenger.
I didn't say you are hanafi.
Aisha radiAllahuanha was asked about the character of the Prophet and she said that his character was the Quran.
Can you point to me where does it say in the Quran that such and such a thing is "Fard", where that particular word is used?
That someone can only be a scholar. Not someone like me and you.
if hadith can't be taken at face value then what do you do?
if all hadith can't be trusted 100% then wouldn't Islam be incomplete in some way?
like i said, consensus of the scholars is good enough as per the hadith
maybe you are not familiar with the hadith, it says something like the consensus of the scholars of this ummah will not go wrong
You are going into details of usul ul fiqh again. If you are that interested in usul ul fiqh then you should read more about it. The topic that you are looking for that would answer your question is Qiyas.
I was trying to see what your stand is without specifically asking.
Again you are deriving meanings from something yourself, you are more likely to make mistakes moreso than other scholars of Islam (you've already agreed to this above). So why would you even try to interpret ahadith yourself when you know you don't have the know how?
Again point out to me where the word "Fard" is used in the Quran? I know for sure that the word used to make fasting fard is "Kutiba". I am not sure about the other Faraid.
I don't blindly trust scholars either, but there's still a little bit of blind following that you have to do. For example, if a scholar tells me that a hadeeth is saheeh, then I can't verify that myself.
[9:122] refers to scholars who will teach people the religion, you can look up the context yourself. There are other references as well but I think this should suffice.
Again, these new technologies that you are referring, these issues are usually resolved by using Qiyas according to usul ul fiqh.
Re: Top 10 reasons why Muslim men dont keep beards
I don’t really care about the beard bit, I just want to point out the flaws in the reasoning presented here.
Re: Top 10 reasons why Muslim men dont keep beards
I stopped, looks like your cheeta is more laraku than me now and thus mch more laraku than old ladies..right? 
Re: Top 10 reasons why Muslim men dont keep beards
sheru, I would have responded but antu cant handle the discussion anymore so I guess this is it :)
Re: Top 10 reasons why Muslim men dont keep beards
I’ve said this before havent I ?
Re: Top 10 reasons why Muslim men dont keep beards
I would have responded but antu cant handle the discussion anymore so I guess this is it :)