^ Another pretender who can't read simple English (and no doubt Arabic as well)... for your benefit: What question was put to Jesus in the verses cited (as)?
*Chapter : 5 (Al-Ma'idah) Verse : 47
And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, fulfilling that which was revealed before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel which contained guidance and light, fulfilling that which was revealed before him in the Torah; and a guidance and an admonition for the God-fearing. *
In the above verse, Allah has catagorically stated that Jesus will fulfill only what was revealed BEFORE HIM. Which means Torah. Now, twice has Allah stated that in this particular verse. Now, if Jesus were to come again, ofcourse, he will not preach Torah again. Right? Because now we have Quran. But he will not be able to guide us through Quran, BECAUSE THIS VERSE WOULD STAND AGAINST HIM. He will neither have knowledge nor capability of teaching us Quran. That was only given to Prophet Muhammad(saw). Now, if you say that Allah can teach him Quran in a second or what not, I would say, why hasn't Allah stated that anywhere in Quran? Why hasn't he stated that He(as) will also come and teach you Quran in later stages. You won't even find a HINT of such statement. If Allah can say that he(as) had only come to teach you Torah, certainly Allah can say that in later ages he(as) would also come to reiterate Quran. But it never was said. THINK ABOUT IT!
*Chapter : 5 (Al-Ma'idah) Verse : 117
And when Allah will say, 'O Jesus, son of Mary, didst thou say to men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah?' he will answer, 'Holy art THOU, I could never say that which I had no right. If I had said it, Thou wouldst have surely known it. Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Thy mind. It is Thou alone Who art the Knower of all hidden things; *
Read and try to understand 'clearly' what has been said in the above verse. First, Allah is asking Jesus(as), did you say to men to worship you(jesus) and your mother(Mary)? The answer of Jesus(as) is, I could never have said that. If I had said that You(Allah) would have known it. As you(Allah) knows what is in my heart, but I (Jesus) don't know what is your (Allah) mind. *This means, till the day of resurrection, Jesus would never know that his people would have made him(Jesus) and his mother(Mary) gods. * Because this verse clearly states that. Now, if same Jesus(as) were to descend again, wouldn't he see what christians are believing today? Wouldn't he (as) know that he(as) was taken as god by his people. If he would, then where would you place this verse. Quran is for ALL TIMES. So, at that time, either Quran is right or Jesus(as). Which one would you chose?
*[19:34] 'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.' *
Above verse said about Jesus(as). Here Allah says that Jesus said, Peace was on him the day he was born, the day he shall die and the day he will be raised again. But your argument has a totally different sequence. You said that Jesus was born, was raised and then shall die. Quran is against this.
^ But first things first...
To repeat AGAIN for about the sixth time... Jesus was born, will die, and will be resurrected... which aspect of the "sequence" that you were going on about doesn't this fit into?
And yet again, who does verse 13 of that sequence apply to?
Or can we assume you didn't know what you were talking about earlier and so can't answer such basic questions on a line of argument that YOU introduced?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
^ But first things first...
To repeat AGAIN for about the sixth time... Jesus was born, will die, and will be resurrected... which aspect of the "sequence" that you were going on about doesn't this fit into?
And yet again, who does verse 13 of that sequence apply to?
Or can we assume you didn't know what you were talking about earlier and so can't answer such basic questions on a line of argument that YOU introduced?
[/QUOTE]
I don't have to repeat my answers on the above issues. Look through the thread again, you will find them. And don't try to hide yourself in repeating your questions.
V
If natural phenomena are required for Miracles, then what will you say about Ibrahim :as: thrown into the fire that Namrood lit? How did it become a garden? There is some serious nature’s law in danger here.
Now read this from the book written by Mirja and then talk.
A miracle of the Holy Prophet, peace and blessing of Allah be upon him, the splitting of the moon, came about through the same Divine power. There was no prayer accompanying it, for it took place merely by the pointing of a finger which was full of Divine power. There are many other miracles of this kind which the Holy Prophet, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him, showed merely through personal power, without any prayer accompanying them. On several occasions, by dipping his fingers into a small amount of water contained in only a bowl, he increased it so much that all the troops, camels and horses drank of it, and yet the original quantity of water still remained. There were some instances when he fed thousands of hungry people to the full by touching a few pieces of bread with his hands, or made a whole company drink milk by blessing a small amount of it with his lips, or made the water of a salt-water well sweet by adding his saliva to it, or healed badly-injured men by putting his hand upon them, or mended the eyes of soldiers whose pupils had fallen out due to the shock of battle, by the blessing of his hand. Similarly, there were many other works he performed due to personal power, which involved an invisible Divine power. (Translation appears from an extract taken from: A’ina-i Kamalati Islam, by Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Sahib of Qadian)*
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
I don't have to repeat my answers on the above issues. Look through the thread again, you will find them. And don't try to hide yourself in repeating your questions.
[/QUOTE]
Then you shouldn't have any difficulty in summarising your answers then... thanks, i look forward to seeing them... and don't try to hide yourself by jumping from argument to argument like a headless chicken, you only end up looking stupid... it's an age old technique where you just blindly stack point after point, quote after quote... if you are interested in a serious discussion then let's first conclude the line of argument YOU already introduced...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
Then you shouldn't have any difficulty in summarising your answers then... thanks, i look forward to seeing them... and don't try to hide yourself by jumping from argument to argument like a headless chicken, you only end up looking stupid... it's an age old technique where you just blindly stack point after point, quote after quote... if you are interested in a serious discussion then let's first conclude the line of argument YOU already introduced...
[/QUOTE]
Ok.. here I put my answers again:
[19:34] 'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.'
Above verse is said about Jesus(as). Here Allah says that Jesus said, Peace was on him the day he was born, the day he shall die and the day he will be raised again. But your argument has a totally different sequence. You said that Jesus was born, was raised and then shall die. Quran is against this.
You Said:
1. Prophet Isa (as) was born
2. Was Raised to Allah bodily
3. Will descend from Sky
4. Will die
5. Will be resurrected
BUT the following verses suggest, a person MUST DIE in this world before he can be raised up on the Day of Resurrection.
[23:13] Verily, We created man from an extract of clay;
[23:14] Then We placed him as a drop of sperm in a safe depository;
[23:15] Then We fashioned the sperm into a clot; then We fashioned the clot into a shapeless lump; then We fashioned bones out of this shapeless lump; Then We clothed the bones with flesh; Then We developed it into another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.
[23:16] Then after that you, surely, must die.
[23:17] Then on the Day of Resurrection you shall, surely, be raised up .
NOW REMEMBER, NO WHERE IN QURAN IT IS MENTIONED THAT A PERSON/RASUL CAN BE RAISED UP TO HEAVEN BEFORE HE IS DEAD. SHOW ME IF YOU FIND ANY SUCH VERSE.
In Surah Al-Anbiya' verse 21:7-8, Allah declares:
21:7 We did not send before you (O Muhammad(pbuh)) any but man to whom We sent revelations; therefore you ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know
21:8 And We did not give them bodies not taking food and neither are they abiding
Among other things, the important findings from these verses are:
(1) All Rasuls were human beings
(2) Their mortal bodies sustained on food
(3) They are all dead
The Quran categorically tells that all prophets were human being, they were not superhuman or god. Because they were human beings, whatever is natural to a human being has to apply to them as well. All human being eat food for sustenance, so also all Rasuls were dependent on food for sustenance of their physical bodies. All human beings are born, die and then resurrect. None of the human beings have capability to go up to heavens bodily except this myth of Jesus.
Infact Quran has said that:
Chapter : 2 (Al-Baqarah) Verse : 57
Then We raised you up after your death, that you might be grateful.
So here also Quran says, we raised you up AFTER YOUR DEATH. NOT BEFORE.
Case closed... no further discussion on this sequence thing. I've made my point. I can't force you to believe in it. I've explained how I've come to a conclusion that your argument is wrong and I've given Quranic evidences. In none of your replies have you ever supported your argument with any of the Quranic verses. All you do is to deny the verses that I've quoted for you. You can believe in whatever you want. It is not my business to change your concepts. All I can do is pray to Allah to help us in finding the truth, and that I am doing.
**"They (The Jews) said in boast, "We killed Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah," but they killed him not nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for a surety they killed him not, but Allah raised him up unto Himself, and Allah is exalted in power, wise." 4/157-158
"Remember when Allah said, "O Jesus! I shall take you and raise you to Myself and clear you of the falsehood of those who rejected faith and I shall make those who followed you superior to those who rejected faith, until the day of resurrection. Then you shall all return to Me and I will judge between you of the matters upon which you disputed." 3/55 **
Case closed :)
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
Case closed... no further discussion on this sequence thing.
[/QUOTE]
I asked for a summary and you post something that's probably longer than the original answer! Anyway, the case isn't closed since yet again you've ignored the question... who does verse 13 of that sequence apply to? (and you don't need to write another essay in reply, a few words should suffice i would have thought)... i'll then be happy to go through your logic point by point...
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by smooth_guy: *
*"They (The Jews) said in boast, "We killed Jesus the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah," but they killed him not nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts with no certain knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for a surety they killed him not, but Allah raised him up unto Himself, and Allah is exalted in power, wise." 4/157-158
"Remember when Allah said, "O Jesus! I shall take you and raise you to Myself and clear you of the falsehood of those who rejected faith and I shall make those who followed you superior to those who rejected faith, until the day of resurrection. Then you shall all return to Me and I will judge between you of the matters upon which you disputed." 3/55 **
Case closed :)
[/QUOTE]
I agree. As Allah has said ** Then you shall all return to Me and I will judge between you of the matters upon which you disputed.**. As this is a matter of dispute, let Allah alone be the judge. May Allah show us the right path and give us the knowledge and wisdom to understand his scriptures. Ameen!
^ Yes... but when you can't even read English translations properly, let alone the original Arabic, you'll continue to make childish mistakes and logical fallacies as you've done throughout this thread...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
I agree. As Allah has said ** Then you shall all return to Me and I will judge between you of the matters upon which you disputed.**. As this is a matter of dispute, let Allah alone be the judge. May Allah show us the right path and give us the knowledge and wisdom to understand his scriptures. Ameen!
[/QUOTE]
Its good that finally you realised your mistake.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
I asked for a summary and you post something that's probably longer than the original answer! Anyway, the case isn't closed since yet again you've ignored the question... who does verse 13 of that sequence apply to? (and you don't need to write another essay in reply, a few words should suffice i would have thought)... i'll then be happy to go through your logic point by point...
[/QUOTE]
It applys to the process of creation of human beings (according to my understanding). After having mentioned in the first 10 verses of this surah, the different stages of spiritual evolution of man, Quran proceeds to describe the physical development in these next few verses. And thus establishes a remarkable parallelism between spiritual and physical development.
The words "We created man from extract of clay", mentions the man's creation from the earliest stage when he lies dormant in the form of dust, and the inorganic constituents of earth through the subtle process of change become converted into the life-germ by way of food which a human being eats. At the stage "then We clothed the bones with flesh(23:15)", the physical growth of embryo becomes complete.
I hope it answers your question.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
^ Yes... but when you can't even read English translations properly, let alone the original Arabic, you'll continue to make childish mistakes and logical fallacies as you've done throughout this thread...
[/QUOTE]
As I said, let Allah be the judge...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
It applys to the process of creation of human beings (according to my understanding). After having mentioned in the first 10 verses of this surah, the different stages of spiritual evolution of man, Quran proceeds to describe the physical development in these next few verses. And thus establishes a remarkable parallelism between spiritual and physical development.
The words "We created man from extract of clay", mentions the man's creation from the earliest stage when he lies dormant in the form of dust, and the inorganic constituents of earth through the subtle process of change become converted into the life-germ by way of food which a human being eats. At the stage "then We clothed the bones with flesh(23:15)", the physical growth of embryo becomes complete.
I hope it answers your question.
[/QUOTE]
So in what sense was Jesus created "from extract of clay"?
You said 'I agree' for the two Quranic verses that rejects Mirja's false claims.
If you like to continue argueing on this, tell me first what you think of the clear verses in the Quran telling us that Jesus has been lifted in the heavens.
Be clear in your answer.
^ don't take him back to square one again!!
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by smooth_guy: *
You said 'I agree' for the two Quranic verses that rejects Mirja's false claims.
If you like to continue argueing on this, tell me first what you think of the clear verses in the Quran telling us that Jesus has been lifted in the heavens.
Be clear in your answer.
[/QUOTE]
Verse 4:157-158 from Surah An-Nisa' are the other two verses you put forward to prove that Jesus(pbuh) did not die. Let us see if the contention is valid one or a corrupt analysis.
In the verse 4:157-158, Allah says:
4:157 And (because of) their saying: "Surely we have killed the Masih, - ‘Isa, son of Mar-yam" the Rasul of Allah, and they could not murder him, nor could they kill him by crucifixion, but he was made to resemble to them. And verily those who differ regarding him are certainly in a doubt about him. They have no knowledge about it but are merely following a guess; and they could not kill him for certain;
4:158 On the contrary, Allah exalted him towards Himself. And Allah is Exalted in Power, most Wise.
…WA ma qataluhu yaqinan (157). Bal rafa’ahu-llahu ilaihi …..(158)
The Jews always claimed that they killed the Masih, the son of Maryam. Allah is telling Muhammad(pbuh) that although they claimed that they killed the Masih, in reality they could not murder him nor could they kill him by crucifixion. Then again, in the very same verse, Allah is telling that they could not kill him for certain.
Two types of death are being discussed here (a) a general murder (b) killing by crucifixion. The Jews wanted to cause either of the two types of death to Jesus(pbuh). Allah assures us that they failed to cause either type of death to him.
Now if you say since Jesus(pbuh) was not murdered or killed by crucifixion, only possibility is that he is alive somewhere!!! Arn't you totally ignoring the fact that Jesus(pbuh) could have died a natural death later on! If Jesus(pbuh) died a natural death, it is still valid that the Jews could not (a) murder him or (b) kill him by crucifixion. VERY SIMPLE
The very intent of putting a person on the cross was to kill him as an evil or a wretched person. On few occasion if a person did not die on the cross, the Jews used to break his legs and hands and leave him to die. Jews would make sure that if a person was doomed for cross that person must die. Jews would not put a person on the cross and later let him walk away. So the meaning of crucifixion has an inherent sense of causing death thereby.
Please look carefully at the verse. The question of "killing" is the issue. In response to the claim by the Jews that they killed Jesus(pbuh), Allah's reply is that (1) he was not killed or murdered in the normal fashion (2) he was not killed by crucifixion. This negates the possibility of Jews killing Jesus(pbuh) in any manner whatsoever, supported by the very last sentence of the same verse: "they could not kill him for certain."
So What Happened to Jesus(pbuh) After The Incidence of Crucifixion?
Jesus(pbuh) was tried on the cross when he was 32 years old. For the sake of debate, if Allah did not raise him alive and if he did not die on the cross, what happened to him thereafter? Are there any evidence from the Quran? Trust me, there are evidences.
In Surah Ale Imran, Allah says:
3:45 And he will speak to the people in the cradle and then of gray-haired age and (he will be) one of the righteous
5:110 ... you speak to the people in the cradle and in old age.....
23:50 ... We sheltered them in a plateau having meadows and springs.
Various commentators of the Quran do agree about the use of words 'gray-haired age' and 'old age'. Then Allah also tells us that Jesus(pbuh) was later on sheltered in a place full of meadows and springs. These verses supports other verses and we can further ascertain that Jesus(pbuh) survived the incidence of crucifixion and lived up to old age.
Fortunately, a few simple lessons in elementary English and Arabic is all that's required to answer these absurdities...
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
[19:34] 'And peace was on me the day I was born, and peace will be on me the day I shall die, and the day I shall be raised up to life again.'
Above verse is said about Jesus(as). Here Allah says that Jesus said, Peace was on him the day he was born, the day he shall die and the day he will be raised again. But your argument has a totally different sequence. You said that Jesus was born, was raised and then shall die. Quran is against this.
[/quote]
"raised up to life again"... meaning from the dead. So there's no difference. I've said all along: Jesus was born, will die and will be resurrected back to life again. That's EXACTLY what this verse is saying.
[quote]
You Said:
1. Prophet Isa (as) was born
2. Was Raised to Allah bodily
3. Will descend from Sky
4. Will die
5. Will be resurrected
BUT the following verses suggest, a person MUST DIE in this world before he can be raised up on the Day of Resurrection.
[23:13] Verily, We created man from an extract of clay;
[23:14] Then We placed him as a drop of sperm in a safe depository;
[23:15] Then We fashioned the sperm into a clot; then We fashioned the clot into a shapeless lump; then We fashioned bones out of this shapeless lump; Then We clothed the bones with flesh; Then We developed it into another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.
[23:16] Then after that you, surely, must die.
[23:17] Then on the Day of Resurrection you shall, surely, be raised up.
[/quote]
Your inability to read the last verse is probably what's confusing you. And because you are ignorant of Arabic you can't refer to the original text to help you out. The "raised up" in v.17 means "resurrected" (it is, after all, the Day of Ressurection!), i.e. from the death mentioned in the preceding v.16. It has nothing to do with being lifted up to the sky. Jesus will one day die in this world and then be resurrected like everyone else. The sequence confirms exactly what i've maintained all along.
[quote]
In Surah Al-Anbiya' verse 21:7-8, Allah declares:
21:7 We did not send before you (O Muhammad(pbuh)) any but man to whom We sent revelations; therefore you ask the followers of the Reminder if you do not know
21:8 And We did not give them bodies not taking food and neither are they abiding
Among other things, the important findings from these verses are:
(1) All Rasuls were human beings
(2) Their mortal bodies sustained on food
(3) They are all dead
[/quote]
Translate v.8 correctly and you'll see where you've gone wrong:
021.008
YUSUFALI: Nor did We give them bodies that ate no food, nor were they exempt from death.
PICKTHAL: We gave them not bodies that would not eat food, nor were they immortals.
SHAKIR: And We did not make them bodies not eating the food, and they were not to abide (forever).
The verse isn't saying "They are all dead"... it is simply confirming that none were immortal. And that applies to Jesus as well. He will one day die like everyone else.
[quote]
Chapter : 2 (Al-Baqarah) Verse : 57
Then We raised you up after your death, that you might be grateful.
So here also Quran says, we raised you up AFTER YOUR DEATH. NOT BEFORE.
[/quote]
Yes... "raised you up back to life" from the dead. It's not talking about being physically lifted up or anything.
Look up "raised" in all the instances you've cited here... they all refer to "resurrection from the dead" and being "raised back to life" (see also 18:12 for an example of, "raised back awake again from sleep"). So your argument is a non-argument from the outset.
Interestingly, the verse just quoted is in the past tense. Think about it!