Tomb of Virgin Mary in Murree

I don’t know if you’re just teasing here or you really know Allah’s capability (which is beyond our imaginations).

First you answer my first question in my previous post regarding the female camel of Saleh :as:

Then this…

If Asahaab-e-Kahf can sleep without food for 300 years and can wake up fresh like they slept for a night only, why can’t Isa :as: (His prophet, and that too a prophet whose birth is a miracle itself) live without food up there???

Third…

He used to wake up the dead (now you would deny this biggest miracle as well??) by the order of Allah, so the same Allah can’t have him as guest in heaven too?

Now if you read my post carefully, there are atleast five your so called ‘Universal Laws’ that are broken. What would you say about them???

Can’t answer, don’t know much about it.. sorry…

It was a kashf. That would explain it.

Obviously, you don’t mean here literal dead. Those are people who were ‘spiritually’ dead, not literally.

According to above interpretations, none of the ‘universal laws’ are broken. But yes, according to your interpretation, laws of Allah are broken, which is totally unacceptable.

Have you heard about Asahab-e-Kahaf??? What is Kashf?

Learn about Saleh :as: camel here.

http://www.soukofoman.com/newsalehscamel.html

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by smooth_guy: *
Have you heard about Asahab-e-Kahaf????? What is Kashf?

[/QUOTE]

Kashf is dream. A true dream that Allah shows to his chosen people or whosoever he wishes to show. look it up in urdu dictionary.

:smack: I know what Kashf is very well. How does it apply in the case of Ashabe Kahaf ???

P.S: Don’t try to distract the discussion with riddles. Be clear in your replies plz.

If it was not a kashaf, it would only bring discripancy in Quranic ayats which is totaly unacceptable. It has to be a kashaf as Allah has already stated on the verses that I’ve quoted earlier that prophets/men cannot live without eating/drinking.

Some ppl compare your comunity with jews for nothing. Your logic is beyond human capacity.

Who got that kashf? It is a well known fact that they literally slept for 300 years. So where did they got the food from?

Has anyone in the world slept for 300 years and woke up like it never happened? Isn't it the breakup of universal law, that no body can live without food after a certain time? Can't Allah do Miracles? Or its just exclusive to Mirja?

Also answer the Camel story explained in Quran, I quoted for you to answer. How come a camel be born out of a rock without having parents? Universal law????

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by smooth_guy: *
Some ppl compare your comunity with jews for nothing. Your logic is beyond human capacity.

Who got that kashf? It is a well known fact that they literally slept for 300 years. So where did they got the food from?

Has anyone in the world slept for 300 years and woke up like it never happened? Isn't it the breakup of universal law, that no body can live without food after a certain time? Can't Allah do Miracles? Or its just exclusive to Mirja?

Also answer the Camel story explained in Quran, I quoted for you to answer. How come a camel be born out of a rock without having parents? Universal law????
[/QUOTE]

all you are proving here is Quran has discripancies.... No wonder, to keep Jesus alive, you have to interpret simple verses of Quran as such that verses start contradicting with other verse. I cannot accept such interpretations. Sorry, but there is a total difference of opinion here. Aapko aapka Isa(as) mubarak ho, but for me my Prophet Muhammad(saw) and His Book is sufficient. And I cannot accept an interpretation of any ayat that contradicts the other ones. As Allah has already said that there are no discripancies. Trust me Isa(as) ko maro gay tabhee Allah, Rasul(saw) or Quran ki haqeeqat khulay gee or contradiction say bucho gay...

And how would you interpret following verse:

Chapter : 3 (Al-`Imran) Verse : 145

And Muhammad is but a messenger. Verily all Messengers have passed away before him. If then he dies or is slain, will you turn back on your heels? And he who turns back on his heels shall not harm Allah at all. And Allah will certainly reward the grateful.

So it says "all Messengers". Shouldn't it include Isa(as)?

[19:31] Jesus said, 'I am a servant of Allah. He has given me the Book, and has made me a Prophet;

[19:32] 'And He has made me blessed wheresoever I may be, and has enjoined upon me Prayer and almsgiving so long as I live;

So how is he giving 'zakat', as according to above verse he will be giving alms to the poor as long as he live. So, as according to you he is alive, how is he doing this?

You lost the argument sir. You couldn’t even reply to the three proves of Allah’s miracles, which are ofcourse Miracles, breaking some serious Universal Law. The creator knows better what to show to whom and to when. Since you couldn’t carry on your law breaking argument anymore, now ur saying that its contradict to other verses. Your interpretation (illogical and one that no one in the history of Islam presented) is wrong. You took one Ayat to prove ur point of all Prophets this and that, and rejecting Miracles of Allah in several other Ayaat. Sorry to say, but it shows ur ignorance. Its also, chori ooper se seena zori.

Miracles have happened eversince this universe was created.

Some law breaking events and miracles.

Birth of Adam (oops no father and no mother)
Birth of Eve (no parents, and birth from a male specie)
Birth of Saleh’s camel (no parents of this animal)
Birth of Jesus (no father)
dozens of miracles of Moses mentioned in Quran.
several miracles of Prophet :saw:

A servent who doesn’t know his Creator’s capablity of keeping his prophet in heavens alive, and who takes one ayat of Quran and presents intellectually dumb logic to prove his point, is not worth of any discussion.

You guys really need serious help from God. I know you would say the same for us, but he lets wait for the dark night in the grave, when we would know in and out of everything. Let see if angels question about Prophet :saw: or Mirja.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *

So when he would descend again, would he no longer be a witness over his ummah?
[/QUOTE]

In case nobody has told you... we are now in the ummah of Muhammad (saw)... wake up and smell the coffee!... Prophet Isa's (as) ummah has passed and he witnessed over them for as long as he was amongst them as he said... read the Qur'an, you might learn something...

And to repeat since you have a habit of ducking and diving... Jesus was born, will die, and will be resurrected... which aspect of your "sequence" doesn't this fit into?

And again, who does verse 13 of that sequence apply to?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *

In case nobody has told you... we are now in the ummah of Muhammad (saw)... wake up and smell the coffee!... Prophet Isa's (as) ummah has passed and he witnessed over them for as long as he was amongst them as he said... read the Qur'an, you might learn something...

[/QUOTE]

Prophet Isa's Umma has passed away? That's a news to me. What would you call people of Israel and all those christians? Arn't they his (as) ummah? And by the way Quran tells us that Isa(as) was specifically sent to Israets. How can he come to teach Muhammad's(saw) Ummah as it would refute Quranic verses.

^ We are now in the ummah of Muhammad (saw)... Allah sent to every people a Messenger... we are now the people of Muhammad's (saw) message and ummah... if you can't understand simple concepts like that then this discussion is probably a touch too advanced for you... perhaps you should go and learn how to read the Qur'an properly for a start, that might reduce your silly mistakes...

And to repeat AGAIN since you have a habit of ducking and diving... Jesus was born, will die, and will be resurrected... which aspect of your "sequence" doesn't this fit into?

And again, who does verse 13 of that sequence apply to?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
^ We are now in the ummah of Muhammad (saw)... Allah sent to every people a Messenger... we are now the people of Muhammad's (saw) message and ummah... if you can't understand simple concepts like that then this discussion is probably a touch too advanced for you... perhaps you should go and learn how to read the Qur'an properly for a start, that might reduce your silly mistakes...

[/QUOTE]

Yes, you are right. We are in the Ummah of Muhammad(saw). But how can Isa(as) be in Ummah of Muhammad when Allah has specifically told us in Quran that he was sent to Israets. He won't refute any of Quranic ayat, would he?

^ Hold that thought. But first things first...

To repeat AGAIN for about the fifth time... Jesus was born, will die, and will be resurrected... which aspect of the "sequence" that you were going on about doesn't this fit into?

And yet again, who does verse 13 of that sequence apply to?

I did not get a proper answer to my questions regarding the following verses. Here i quote them again and will give you a set of questions to ponder upon.

005.116
YUSUFALI: And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

Q: In the above verse Quran says that Allah will ask on the day of resurrection if it was Jesus who told his people to worship him and his mother. And Jesus will detach himself completely from this belief. Right?

005.117
YUSUFALI: "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things.

Now here we have the word Tawaffa (thou took me up/thou caused me to die) which has been wrongly translated by orthodoxy to give support the ascention theory. My Question is If the same jesus will come back and "break the cross" and remove all the infidels from the face of the earth just like that, why was he questioned about the belief (trinity) which would have destroyed already before Qiyamah?

[QUOTE]
Smooth G:

Some law breaking events and miracles.

Birth of Adam (oops no father and no mother)
Birth of Eve (no parents, and birth from a male specie)
Birth of Saleh's camel (no parents of this animal)
Birth of Jesus (no father)
dozens of miracles of Moses mentioned in Quran.
several miracles of Prophet

[/QUOTE]

Adam without parents? Any evidence.

Eve from the rib? Anything from Quran and Hadith?

Saleh's Camel? Please quote the verses and we will see what really happened there.

Birth of Jesus? Nature shows such miracle births every now and then. They have a genuine scientific explanation and these things do happen.

Miracles of Moses? White hand. It "looked" white to the people. The stick which turned into serpent. It "seemed" to the viewers that it had turend into serpent. The splitting of the sea. It was the high tide and low tide in the sea and not Nile. There is a place in england called Morcombe. Dozens of fishermen perished there within minutes due to the tide. One moment it is dry land. The next it is raging sea. Whatelse??

Mircales of the Prophet (saw)? His greatest Miracle is Quran. Nothing supernatural about it, is it?

^^ That says it all. To prove Mirja the promised Messiah, you can cross any limit. :) Thnx for the reply, it now clearly states what you think of Miracles of Allah.

By the way, Adam had no parents, even a child knows it. He was created with mud. Go check in Quran.

I just posted Saleh's camel in one of my previous posts. Check it out and come back.

Allah can do whatever he wants. This is a Muslim's belief. Your thinking is very narrow minded.

^^^^ I don't think miracles are SUPERNATURAL events. Their quality of being miracles is in the manner in which they happen. If miracle was that ISa (as) was raised up to heavens when his life was in danger, then no doubt the same should have happened when Quraish tried to murder Prophet (Saw) in the dark. But the miracle we see there is that he left the house unnoticed. He wasn't made invisible or wasn't elevated to the skies!
Then the miracle was the weaving of the web on the mouth of the cave. Spiders spin webs, very natural phenomenon. A pigeon laid eggs in the nest. Again laws of nature in action to perform the miracle. Here we have the most beloved of Allah in danger, going through the pain and hardship of migration and being followed by murderers. But Allah (swt) reserved the special treatment for Jesus (as)!!!
During the battle of Uhud, Prophet (saw) was attacked and injured by kuffar. His teeth were broken and he had wounds on his head. Here we have the Khatamul Anbiya (may peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) taking all these hardships and dangers without any "miracles" to save him, but for Jesus a person is made to look like him and he himself is raised up to sit in heaven.!!!

You haven't answered the questions i have asked about Jesus (as) in my last post. Proving my point of view on miracles can happen in some other thread.

Re: Tomb of Virgin Mary in Murree

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by nicols_john: *
Among various fascinating legends connected with the popular tourist resort of Murree, self-styled as 'Queen of the Hills' in then India (now Pakistan), is a unique one about the tomb of Virgin Mary.

Believe it or not, but some claim that located on a peaceful Murree hilltop, is the very site thought to be the final abode or resting place of the Mother of Isa (AS) or Jesus Christ - better known to Muslims as Hazrat Marium (AS).

The site has been maintained and honoured as far back as anyone can remember. Its importance can be judged from the fact that the surrounding country is named after the supposed gravesite.

According to old legend, the name 'Murree' is derived from 'Marium' or Mary. Among locals it is know as "Mai Mari da Asthan" ("Resting Place of Mother Mary"). Indeed, when the British first arrived here in 1850s to establish a new hill-station in India, Murree was still known as Mari. The spelling was later changed to the present one in 1875.

The exact origin of the shrine has become obscured by the waves of time. Since time immemorial the Hindus had worshipped it, and the Muslims paid their homage on Thursdays by lighting earthen lamps filled with oil.

Commanding, as one book puts it, "magnificent views over forest-clad hills into deep valleys, studded with villages and cultivated fields, with the snow-covered peaks of Kashmir in the background" and overlooking the plains of Punjab, it stood naturally eligible to be selected by the British for defence purposes who built a watchtower at the site.

According to old records, "in 1898, Richardson, the Garrison Engineer, wished to demolish the tomb at the time of the construction of the defence tower. Shortly afterwards he died in an accident, and the locals connect the incident with his evil intentions towards the tomb."
The grave was thereafter promptly repaired.

A little further down the ridge, the British built a convent and named it the Convent of Jesus and Mary. Today, it is one of the best girls' boarding schools in Pakistan.

After partition of India the government of Pakistan procured this site from private landowners. This place was preferred due to its suitable elevation for the purpose of installation of TV transmitters.

More recently in 1968, two towering antennas were added adjacent to one another on 'Pindi Point', which is the new name given to the location. One of them arises from the same place where Mary is believed to rest.

A crude looking cemented structure marks the spot nowadays where the alleged grave exists. The area is closed to general public due to security concerns for the safety of the TV boosters. Barbed wire surrounds the antennas to prevent anybody from getting near and civil guards keep a vigil on the installations night and day.

Various superstitions surround the story of the tomb. Local residents have reported occasional sightings of unexplained luminosities in the vicinity of the grave at night. Others describe rare encounters with a ball of light condensing into a fuzzy apparition of a veiled female form. Most of the eyewitnesses questioned believed the images were genuine and are connected to the woman buried on the hilltop who many also regard as a saint.

Sometime back, a low-key investigation was carried out by a team of archaeologists, on duty from Islamabad. However, their findings which were supposedly carried out to validate the tomb claim, were never made public.

Skeptics from the field argue that regardless of the outcome of the team's findings, it cannot be accepted as the final verdict on the issue. As an expert puts it: "While serious research of this nature requires extensive excavation, the visit by those archaeologists in the past was merely a superficial survey."

Amongst the Christians, there is a group that believes in a post-crucifixion life of Jesus Christ. They insist that Christ traveled to India with his mother and died there. They believe that Mother Mary was also laid to rest in the same region (Kashmir)

The Muslim view conflicts with the theory that Christ was crucified or that he ever died. Islam holds that Hazrat Isa (AS) ascended into heavens by Divine command. Nevertheless, many Muslim devotees do not rule out that Hazrat Marium (AS) may have been buried in Murree. They quote the following verse from the Holy Quran in order to substantiate their claim:

"And we made the son of Marium and his mother a sign, and we gave them shelter on a lofty ground having meadows and springs" [Surah: 23 Al-Mominoon (The Believers) Ayah 50]

They argue that the aforementioned scripture does not correspond to any landscape description in Bait-ul-Muqadas or Jerusalem. Furthermore, they point out that the mention of 'lofty ground' with 'meadows and springs' may perhaps be a reference to the place in question in Murree.

Uncertainty surrounds other 'Tombs of Mary' located around the world as well. One exists in Turkey. Others claim Mary was buried in France, some suggest England.

Claims of similar nature and practice of 'tomb assignment' to persons of significant standing is not uncommon in our own regional belt. It is thought that Hazrat Musa (AS) or Moses is buried in Bandipore, Hazrat Haroon (AS) or Aaron at Harwan, and Hazrat Suleman (AS) or Solomon at Takht-i-Suleman in Indian Kashmir.

Lately, there has been growing international interest in these tombs. "I am only helping India," says Suzanne Marie Olsson, a New York based researcher, who is on a mission to find the truth, "if the authenticity of all the holy places in Kashmir is established, it will place Kashmir firmly on global map as a leading pilgrimage site of Christians and Muslims and you will have the pilgrim traffic from all over the world".

Ms Olsson's contention is equally relevant in the case of the mystery tomb in Murree. In the absence of historical records, one is forced to rely on local legend. If any connection with Mary can be established through scientific means then the ensuing benefits to the tourism industry can well be imagined.

Whilst many people remain doubtful of the claim of the tomb's existence, it is interesting to note that a section of Lahore's Badshahi mosque houses a collection of relics which are believed to belong to the holy prophet Muhammed (SAWS). These include, the 'Mue Mubarak' or the hair, his turban and a cloak among various other items on display. Hundreds of local and foreign visitors queue up daily to view these relics and to pay homage without ever questioning their authenticity.

On the other hand, after undergoing extensive tests, most western scientists agree now that the famous Shroud of Turin, a woven cloth with an image of a man on it and widely rumoured for a long time to be that of Jesus Christ himself, appears to be a medieval art forgery more than anything else.

The unprecedented technological advances made in recent years in carbon isotope dating and DNA testing methods can investigate with reasonable accuracy similar claims.

In the interest of research, the gravesite should be opened for scientific study so that the issue may be resolved. Until then a question mark will always loom large over this riddle whether Virgin Mary is really buried in Murree.

It remains a great unravelled mystery.
[/QUOTE]

I am currently more than halfway through the book :

JESUS LIVED IN INDIA by HOLGER KERSTEN

it is fascinating! do read it and I think it relates to this topic very well!

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Destino: *

Now here we have the word Tawaffa (thou took me up/thou caused me to die) which has been wrongly translated by orthodoxy to give support the ascention theory. My Question is If the same jesus will come back and "break the cross" and remove all the infidels from the face of the earth just like that, why was he questioned about the belief (trinity) which would have destroyed already before Qiyamah?

[/QUOTE]

TO REPEAT: That Jesus preached tawhid and was a witness over his ummah before he was raised... what aspect of this is your mind refusing to understand? Do we have to repeat things five times for you as well like we have to for zakiahmed?

So Jesus who will be responsible for destroying trinity in the latter days will be asked about trinity just the same?? The man has come again to the world to correct the very same thing. Why ask him such questions? The answer that Jesus (as) gives will be his denial of any role after his "departure". Right? So he will somehow forget that he has been here the second time to correct the wrongdoings of his followers! Strange logic you have.

You will agree that the primary responsibility for the "sone of Mary" after his "descent" will be to break the cross. A very important matter which comes No. 1 in his to do list on his return. Irony is that God will be asking him about trinity and what he had to do with it. Jesus could reply that he was a witness over them on his first period of life and then they went astray, but he was witness over them on his second visit too, when he destroyed the crosses and cross-worshipers.

A dilemma that you have to solve beofre you say anything else.