Tomb of Virgin Mary in Murree

Society Religion & Philosophy
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Zaks and others, we know where all this is coming from.

*Mirza’s Claim of Superiority Over Jesus *
Mirza paved his way to claiming superiority over Jesus by belittling the personality of Jesus, who has been honoured by God in both the Quran and the Bible. Mirza asserts :

"God sent the promised Messiah (Mirza) amongst this community who is better in all his glory than the first Messiah (Jesus)."

(Dafi’ al-Bala,Ruhani Khaza in, Vol. 18. P. 233)

"Unto this nation God sent his promised Messiah (Mirza), who is better than the Messiah in all his glory…I swear by God in whose hands my soul is that if the Messiah, the son of Mary, were my contemporary he could not have done the works that I can do, and the signs (miracles) which I am bringing about he could never have performed."
(Haqiqat al-Wahi,Ruhani Khaza’in, Vol. 22,p. 152)
"After all when God and his apostle and all the prophets have declared the supremacy of the second Messiah (Mirza) of this last period because of his great achievements, then it is a devilish temptation to say, "Why do you proclaim yourself superior to the first Messiah, the son of Mary?"
(Haqiqat al- Wahi, Ruhani Khaza’in Vol. 22. P. 159)
"Give up the mention of the son of Mary, (for) superior to him is Ghulam Ahmed."
(Dafi’ al-Bala, Ruhani Khaza’in, Vol. 18, P.240)

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Jesus (as) had the duty to call only Bani Israel to God. The Messiah of Muslims had the duty to call ALL PEOPLE towards Islam.

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Asatghferullah, it is blasphemy to even think about comparing that Dajjaal Mirza with one of our greatest prophets, Jesus Christ :as:.

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Could Jesus moon walk? I mean, Michael Jacksons got him on that one!

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From what you wrote, I believe you to be a good person, who has respect for prophets of God (pbut), and is God fearing. But this fear seems to be misplaced at this time, I’ll explain why. Is the Prophet(as) sent to bani Israeel greater in stature or the one sent to Umat-e-Mohammadia? If you answer this question, you will know why it is not his ego, but the deep rooted love and respect for his master Hazrat Mohammad (SA) which made him say what is quoted above. I understand that you do not believe in the claim of Hazrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (AS) at this time, and that is where it came from. May Allah forgive you and all others who are taking every possible “shot” at this pious and humble servant of Allah who never wanted anything from these people.

If you study life of Hazrat Massih-e-Maud(AS), you will see numerous people who tried to torment and redicule this truthful man, but were ridiculed and destroyed by Allah. May all you be guided before you are destroyed. Ameen.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by trooper: *

Is the Prophet(as) sent to bani Israeel greater in stature or the one sent to Umat-e-Mohammadia?
[/QUOTE]

That's easy... the one sent to Bani Israel is obviously greater in stature since every claimant to prophethood after Prophet Muhammad (saw) is false as he ended the line of prophets and no new prophet will appear after him... so it doesn't take a genius to work out that any and all of the true prophets of Bani Israel are superior to any and all false prophets...

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *

That's easy... the one sent to Bani Israel is obviously greater in stature since every claimant to prophethood after Prophet Muhammad (saw) is false as he ended the line of prophets and no new prophet will appear after him... so it doesn't take a genius to work out that any and all of the true prophets of Bani Israel are superior to any and all false prophets...
[/QUOTE]

Thank you.. I was expecting you to say just that. You do not even realize how many of your own questions you have just answered.

You just admitted to the fact that Jesus (AS) was the prophet who was sent to Bani Israeel. Lets suppose that he is (bodily) sitting in heavens right now, unaware (or aware) that in his absence from this world, greatest and the dearest prophet of Allah Hazrat Mohammad (SA) has lived and passed away, and the Quran has now been revealed to mankind. According to you, some time in the future, he will be sent back to this earth (bodily).

This raises some interesting questions, which were brought to my attention by a very dear and loving soul. Will he (as) be taught Quran before or after his decent to this earth? If after, by whom? Muslim Umah? Same Umah that he is suppose to preach the Quranic teachings and philosophies? A case of student teaching the teacher, what the teacher is suppose to teach the student later? Or will he be taught Quran before his bodily decent in somewhere in Middle East? If before, will it be by Allah through His angles? In the later situation we have Jesus(AS) being taught Quran (by Allah through his angles, no less!), given a new book, taught new laws, and being sent to a people who God wants to guide. If this is not a definition of a new prophet, then what else is? What will this mean to the myth of "Khatamun-Nabiyyeen " that you believe means last prophet?

May Allah help us see the truth, Ameen

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^ Jesus (as) of course knew of Muhammad (saw)... see Qur'an 61:6

Jesus' (as) second coming falls within the guidance and religion of Prophet Muhammad (saw) given that he foretold his advent... there's no "new book", the Book has already been sent down; there's no "new law", the law is already in place... Jesus (as) will live by the Book and the law and uphold them...

It could be suggested that Jesus (as) will descend whilst already being familiar with the Qur'an... nevertheless it is safe to say that he will of course be a follower of it, not its recipient by way of a fresh revelation of it...

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^^ you have evaded the question put forth by trooper. How will Jesus (as) be made aware of Quranic teachings. As We know from Quran that a prophet teaches "book" and "wisdom". Jesus (as) taught Book and Wisdom. Holy Prophet (saw) taught Book and Wisdom. When Jesus (as) comes back (according to you) he will be Hakam and Adal. These are the qualities mentioned in Hadith. Both of these qualities are only possible by the use of the Wisdom given in the final revelation of God, i.e., Quran. If Jesus (as) was given guidence of the final revelation than Nauoozobillah you are saying that Quran was revealed to him as well. This belief is blasphemous and i am sure that you don't hold such belief. God teaches wisdom to his prophets through Wahi or revelation. For Jesus (as) to know the wisdom of the Quran, God must have given him revelation in heavens??

By raising an Ummati prophet in the muslim Ummah, Allah has given a servent of Muhammad (saw) the wisdom. Promised Messiah (as) claimed to be the recipient of the revelation which gave him the wisdom to teach his followers the way to final victory of Islam.

Now you have to decide if you want to hold on to a blasphemous belief or open your eyes and see the truth.

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uff…abay a prophet who is the guest of Allah in heaven (if you imagine for a second) for 2000 years, needs Quranic teaching??? When he has this mission for this many years and is about to come down any time in the near future he will be well prepared and programmed for it. Its not revealation of Quran on Jesus or anything. Its the same message that is running from Adam to Mohammed :saw:
Jesus is alive up there, he would know the Quran and Sharia very well. That is why it has been said that he will kill swine, will break cross and will marry and live a normal life and then die. All this will happen inshallah and it will ALSO be symbolic to christians of our time that they have gone astray in the name of True religion of God or Christianity. If you read the events I mentioned again, you would what I am talking:This is all that they are not practicing these days.

And no, no matter how clear verses and ahadith we quote here. Hidayaah will not come to those whose hearts are sealed by Allah. May Allah keep us out of the dajjali mob. Amen.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: * there's no "new book", the Book has already been sent down; there's no "new law", the law is already in place... Jesus (as) will live by the Book and the law and uphold them...
[/QUOTE]

so let me get it straight.. u guys are hip to the idea of a messenger coming AFTER our Prophet who can come without a new book and follow and/or preach the existing Book/Law as revealed to our Prophet.. who as we all know and believe was the LAST prophet sent by Allah.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
^ Jesus (as) of course knew of Muhammad (saw)... see Qur'an 61:6

Jesus' (as) second coming falls within the guidance and religion of Prophet Muhammad (saw) given that he foretold his advent... there's no "new book", the Book has already been sent down; there's no "new law", the law is already in place... Jesus (as) will live by the Book and the law and uphold them...

It could be suggested that Jesus (as) will descend whilst already being familiar with the Qur'an... nevertheless it is safe to say that he will of course be a follower of it, not its recipient by way of a fresh revelation of it...
[/QUOTE]

There will be no new book, and no new law after Quran. You are right there. Ahmadies hold the exact same belief. Now the only difference that remains is will it be Jesus (AS) of Nazareth (the prophet of bani Israel) that will come back (bodily) or will it be a disciple, slave and Umati of Hazrat Mohammad Mustafa (SA), Sardar-ul-Ambia. Either way, the myth of last prophet is blown to pieces. Jesus (AS) was given Bible during his prophet hood, not Quran. It was Bible's law that he preached and practiced when he was alive, not Quran. Quran was revealed only to our beloved master, Hazrat Mohammad (SA). If Jesus (AS) will be re-commissioned, assigned to a new people, given a new mission and taught the new law (i.e. Quran) in heavens and sent to new people and not just bani Israel, then by definition, he (AS) will be a new prophet, will he not? Brother, I have no intention of ridiculing you or belittling you, I am a humble seeker just like you are, and sincerely pray that we both be guided to what ever is the truth. Ameen. It will be the greatest blessing from Allah. Inshallah.

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by trooper: *

**
There will be no new book, and no new law after Quran. You are right there. Ahmadies hold the exact same belief. ** Now the only difference that remains is will it be Jesus (AS) of Nazareth (the prophet of bani Israel) that will come back (bodily) or will it be a disciple, slave and Umati of Hazrat Mohammad Mustafa (SA), Sardar-ul-Ambia. Either way, the myth of last prophet is blown to pieces. Jesus (AS) was given Bible during his prophet hood, not Quran. It was Bible's law that he preached and practiced when he was alive, not Quran. Quran was revealed only to our beloved master, Hazrat Mohammad (SA). If Jesus (AS) will be re-commissioned, assigned to a new people, given a new mission and taught the new law (i.e. Quran) in heavens and sent to new people and not just bani Israel, then by definition, he (AS) will be a new prophet, will he not? Brother, I have no intention of ridiculing you or belittling you, I am a humble seeker just like you are, and sincerely pray that we both be guided to what ever is the truth. Ameen. It will be the greatest blessing from Allah. Inshallah.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah right!!!

I am not a prophet:
"How can it be permitted that I claim prophethood and go out of the fold of Islam and join the party of Kaafirs?" (Humamatul Bushra, Roohani Khazain vo.7 p.297)

"O People!... Do not be an enemy of Quran and after Khatamun Nabiyeen do not start new silsila of prophetic revelation." (Asmani Faisla, Roohani Khazain vol.4 p.335)

"Can such a wretched fabricator who claims himself to be a prophet and messenger, have faith in Quran, and can such a person who have faith in Quran and believes the verse: 'wa laakin Rasoolullah wa Khatemun Nabiyeen' to be the word of Allah, say that I am also a messenger and prophet after Holy Prophet SAAW?" (Anjame Atham, Roohani Khazain vol.11 p.297)

"I am neither a claimant of prophethood and nor I deny miracles, angels and Night of Power .... and after Syedna wa Maulana Muhammad SAAW, Khatemul Mursaleen, i consider any claimaint of prophethood and messengership to be a liar and kaafir." (Tableeghe Risalat vol.2 p.22, Collection of Advertisements vol.1 p.230)

But hold on......................

I am Prophet:
"I swear upon God in whose hands is my life, He has sent me, He only has named me prophet and He only has sent me as Promised Messiah." (Tatumma Haqeeqatul Wahi, Roohani Khazain vol.22 p.503)

"True God is that God who has sent His Prophet in Qadian." (Dafa alBala p.11, Roohani Khazain vol.18 p.231)

Further on.....
I am not Promised Messiah
"I have never claimed that I am Messiah Ibne Maryam and he who accuses me of such a thing, he is absolutely a liar and a fabricator." (Izala-e-Auham, Roohani Khazain vol.3 192)
"This humble self has simply claimed to be a Maseel Maseeh, which foolish people have thought to be Promised Messiah..." (Roohani Khazain vol.3 p.192)

And then :)

I am Promised Messiah:
"I claim that I am the Promised Messiah, about whom all the Holy Books of God have foretold that he will appear in the last days." (Roohani Khazain vol.17 p.295)

"I swear upon that God upon whom to fabricate is the job of accursed ones, He has sent me as Promised Messiah." (Collection of Advertisement of Mirza Goolam vol.3 p.435)

And finally the golden words by Mirja:

**"Writings of liar compulsorily contains contradictions." *(Zamima Braheen-e-Ahmadiyya part 5, Roohani Khazain vol 21 p.275) :D
"Writings of a truthful and clear-conscience person never contains any contradictions. Yes if someone is lunatic and insane or such a hypocrite who is a yes man for flattering someone, his writings will, of course, be contradictory." (Sat Bachan, Roohani Khazain vol 10 p.132)
"Any wise and sensible person can never keep two different beliefs." (Roohani Khazain vol.3 p.220)*

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You missed the part where this fictitious Jesus kills every non-Muslim on earth.

You will go to any length to justify the wrong beliefs. You have just unintentionally mocked the Devine wisdom. What was the need to reveal different books to different prophets if the message remained the same? While the basics message of Tawheed, truthfulness, honesty, love (and all other moral values that are universal) remain common to each book and law bearing prophet, the teaching got more and more refined and specific to the time of each prophet, until the final (and most refined) message was revealed to Hazrat Mohammad (SA). Please do not start twisting your own faith just to prove Ahmadis wrong. Jesus (AS) of Nazareth knew only of Bible, not Quran. You believe that he has been a “guest” in heavens and will be sent back to this very miserable world of ours by Allah with a new mission or task (which is different from the one he was assigned to the last time he (AS) was here) and assigned to a new people (and not bani Israel this time). Would that not be a new prophet?

Furthermore, once he comes back, Quran will still call him prophet of bani Israel (while he is not longer their prophet, but instead here to kill them, according to your beliefs). How will he deal with this controversy? will he change that part of Quran (Nauoozobillah)?

I am also interested in hearing more about “That is why it has been said that he will kill swine, will break cross..” and this time please do not leave out the part where he kills all non-Muslims.

BTW, who is the “dajjali mob”? no matter how hard you try to conceal it, you are just not able to contain your hate. if your heart is filled with hate, how can it contain/entertain the truth?

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[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

so let me get it straight.. u guys are hip to the idea of a messenger coming AFTER our Prophet who can come without a new book and follow and/or preach the existing Book/Law as revealed to our Prophet.. who as we all know and believe was the LAST prophet sent by Allah.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
[/QUOTE]

The interesting thing is that I have spoken to many so called "muslims" that have various versions of how Jesus will return. The one version I have heard also includes that Jesus will be the same prophet (in person) coming back to earth again. He has already come once and so technically him coming back again after prophet Muhammad (saw) is not really a new coming. Its the same jesus coming back again after the death of Muhammad (saw). Also since he's in the presence of Allah right now, he will learn the quran with miracles and know everything prior to his return. Within 3 of my friends I have heard various re-coming theories. There is absolutely no consistency.

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Re: Tomb of Virgin Mary in Murree

This is the exact version of what the four school of thoughts believe in and this all is based on ahaadeeth.

introduce yourself
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Re: Tomb of Virgin Mary in Murree

Well all four have been proven wrong! read the discussion above.

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Re: Tomb of Virgin Mary in Murree

hahaha.. who proved them wrong.. All I see is smooth_guy proving otherwise:)

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Re: Tomb of Virgin Mary in Murree

You will see things the way you want to, I can not change that. But I really do hope that you take the time and read the whole discussion (for once!) and add something meaningful. Please do not make any shallow statements/declarations.

tring tring *hula*
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Re: Tomb of Virgin Mary in Murree

Trooper bhai jaan: I have answered in detail about Zuryat-ul-baghaayaa in the other thread... take your time to read that too :-)

tring tring *hula*