p.s. As well as...
"And when We gave Moses the Book (al-kitab)..." (2:53)
"We gave Moses the Book (al-kitab), and made it a guide to the Children of Israel..." (17:2)
Gupguppy
I haven't really studied this aspect in great detail. However, if you go further down to ayat 16, al Kitaab is again mentioned relating to the Qur'aan.
Getting back to Yahyas account, I believe it's mentioning the Book of Abraham as mentioned in Surah An-Nisa. The context seems to be the same.
Allah knows Best.
Mose's al Kitaab is agreed upon as the Torah. However, when the al Kitaab, Torah and Injeel are mentioned in the same sentence, it refers to the Qur'aan.
Where did you get - "This consensus has been agreed by all scholars" - from?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by sholay: *
Getting back to Yahyas account, I believe it's mentioning the Book of Abraham as mentioned in Surah An-Nisa. The context seems to be the same.
[/QUOTE]
Here's how those commentators who have "studied this aspect in great detail" understand al-kitab in verse 19:12...
Tafsir Al Qurtubi: "The Taurah without any difference of opinion"
Tafsir Al Tabari: "Namely the Book that Allah sent down on Moses, and it is the Taurah"
Tafsir Ibn Kathir: "It is the Taurah"
Tafsir Al Suyuti: "Namely, the Taurah"
You might also want to read what they had to say about those verses you mentioned earlier... i.e. 3:48 and 5:110...
sholay bhai jaan tukkay naa maaraiN.. Al-Kitab is with Allah.. parts of it have been shared with people of different times through their scriptures..it's not just Qur'an.
and gupguppy.. wafat is almost always "death' as used in the Qur'an.. look up all the instances.. translators do somersaults to avoid using it in this verse as it destroys the prevalent muslim concept of Jesus and his death.. afterall they can't depart from what their hadiths say.. so they just twist the meanings to arrive at that conclusion.
^ translating wafat according to its primary meaning is not twisting anything
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
Present everywhere? What exactly does that mean? Physically present? What?
Present inside idols also?
Indwells inside humans?
[/QUOTE]
Mr. gupguppy, I am glad you've posted such questions. It proves your ignorance about the attributes of Allah. If I am not wrong, you are posting such questions only to prove that Jesus bodily ascended to Allah? Wow! to prove your point, you are trying to limit Allah? That's a brave attempt I must say.
^ Advice: First learn to read Arabic before trying to use Arabic words to prove your point... :D
^^
"We granted not abiding life to any human being before thee. If then thou shouldst die, shall they have abiding life?" (21:35)
God loves the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of God be on him) more than He loves anyone else. He was the purpose for all creation as Hadith says: "Had I not created thee I would have created neither heaven nor earth."
Hence, if any man deserved to remain alive and ascend to heaven, it was our Holy ProphetSAW. If he has died in the usual way, other prophets have died in the same way. We know too well that the deniers of the Holy ProphetSAW challenged him and asked him if he could perform the miracle of ascent to Heaven? They said:
"We will not believe except if you ascend to Heaven. And we will not believe in your ascent unless you bring to us from Heaven a Book which we may then read." (17:94)
In reply to this challenge, God did not empower the Holy ProphetSAW to show the miracle which the Holy Prophet'sSAW deniers asked him to show. Instead, God made the Prophet say: "Holy is my Lord! I am not but a man sent as Messenger." (17:94) Knowing this, how can we think the Holy ProphetSAW should rise to Heaven, but die in the normal way and be buried here in this earth, and Hadhrat JesusAS should go to Heaven and remain alive for these two thousand years?
"And those on whom they call beside Allah create not anything, but they are themselves created. They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be raised." (16:21,22)
Hadhrat JesusAS is also among those to whom they call beside Allah (5:73), hence, he is dead
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
"We granted not abiding life to any human being before thee. If then thou shouldst die, shall they have abiding life?" (21:35)
[/quote]
No one will live forever. Every soul shall taste death as the very next verse says... that applies equally to everyone.
[quote]
He was the purpose for all creation as Hadith says: "Had I not created thee I would have created neither heaven nor earth."
[/quote]
A long-acknowledged fabricated hadith
[quote]
Hence, if any man deserved to remain alive and ascend to heaven, it was our Holy ProphetSAW. If he has died in the usual way, other prophets have died in the same way.
[/quote]
Prophets/Messengers were given gifts not always shared by other Prophets/Messengers... that's obvious
[quote]
We know too well that the deniers of the Holy ProphetSAW challenged him and asked him if he could perform the miracle of ascent to Heaven? They said:
"We will not believe except if you ascend to Heaven. And we will not believe in your ascent unless you bring to us from Heaven a Book which we may then read." (17:94)
In reply to this challenge, God did not empower the Holy ProphetSAW to show the miracle which the Holy Prophet'sSAW deniers asked him to show. Instead, God made the Prophet say: "Holy is my Lord! I am not but a man sent as Messenger." (17:94) Knowing this, how can we think the Holy ProphetSAW should rise to Heaven, but die in the normal way and be buried here in this earth, and Hadhrat JesusAS should go to Heaven and remain alive for these two thousand years?
[/quote]
see above
[quote]
"And those on whom they call beside Allah create not anything, but they are themselves created. They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be raised." (16:21,22)
Hadhrat JesusAS is also among those to whom they call beside Allah (5:73), hence, he is dead
[/QUOTE]
They also call on angels... are they all dead as well? The things that people worshipped besides Allah will be gathered and taken to the Fire... are you including Prophet Isa (as) in this as well?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
^ translating wafat according to its primary meaning is not twisting anything
[/QUOTE]
hahah.. guppy sahib aap ka "maiN na manooN" toa legendary hoata jaa raha hay..
bhai jaan care to look in the Qur'an how the word has always been used.. always to mean "die".. yeh "temporarily terminating the stay" valee interpretation kuch hazam naheen hoatee..
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
[QUOTE]
No one will live forever. Every soul shall taste death as the very next verse says... that applies equally to everyone.
[/QUOTE]
So why is Jesus(as) an exception?
[QUOTE]
A long-acknowledged fabricated hadith
[/QUOTE]
It's easier for you to reject the hadith than come up with a valid answer, I guess. And how can you say it's fabricated. What is so wrong in this hadith. Doesn't Allah love him(saw) the most? Isn't he(saw) the best of the bests among His prophets?
[QUOTE]
Prophets/Messengers were given gifts not always shared by other Prophets/Messengers... that's obvious
[/QUOTE]
Gifts? Is that a gift? That's a special treatment given to Jesus(as) according to your interpretation. Not even Huzur(saw) got that treatment.
Allah specifically told Huzur(saw) to reply to their question as "Holy is my Lord! I am not but a man sent as Messenger." (17:94). Meaning, messengers are men like other humans and they don't even get such special treatments (such as to be raised up in the skies). Jesus(as) must not be a normal human if he is up in the skies. Because above verse catagorically denies that humans can be lifted up bodily.
[QUOTE]
They also call on angels... are they all dead as well? The things that people worshipped besides Allah will be gathered and taken to the Fire... are you including Prophet Isa (as) in this as well?
[/QUOTE]
Can you give a source of your argument.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *
care to look in the Qur'an how the word has always been used.. always to mean "die"..
[/QUOTE]
See 6:60
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *
So why is Jesus(as) an exception?
[/quote]
He isn't. He will die like everyone else. Just because he hasn't died yet doesn't mean he will live forever.
[quote]
It's easier for you to reject the hadith than come up with a valid answer, I guess.
[/quote]
It's easier for you to post a fabricated hadith than come up with a valid argument, i guess.
[quote]
And how can you say it's fabricated. What is so wrong in this
[/quote]
If you cite a hadith as evidence the onus is on you to show that it is authentic. The hadith in question is included in various collections of fabricated reports, such as Ali al Qari's 'al Asrar al Marfua', al Saghani's 'Ahadith al Mawdu'at', al Albani's 'Silsilah al Da'ifa', al Suyuti's 'al La'i al Masnu'a', Ibn al Jawzi's 'Mawdu'at'... can you show any hadith scholar who said its chain of transmission is sound?... even though a few may have concluded that the matn/text has a correct meaning (highly debatable) according to their view... but going from there to saying it proves Prophet 'Isa (as) was not raised is far-fetched to say the least...
[quote]
Gifts? Is that a gift? That's a special treatment given to Jesus(as) according to your interpretation. Not even Huzur(saw) got that treatment.
[/quote]
(Hits head against brick wall...) Not all Prophets/Messengers shared the same miracles.
[quote]
Allah specifically told Huzur(saw) to reply to their question as "Holy is my Lord! I am not but a man sent as Messenger." (17:94). Meaning, messengers are men like other humans and they don't even get such special treatments (such as to be raised up in the skies).
[/quote]
Meaning: I am but a human, i have no power to perform miracles of my own accord except if my Lord so wills it... and i take it you are also denying our Prophet's (as) physical Miraj but that's your problem.
[quote]
Jesus(as) must not be a normal human if he is up in the skies. Because above verse catagorically denies that humans can be lifted up bodily.
[/quote]
No it doesn't... the only one denying it is you
[quote]
Can you give a source of your argument.
[/QUOTE]
See surahs 3:80, 19:44, 21:98, 37:22-23, 43:20
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
He isn't. He will die like everyone else. Just because he hasn't died yet doesn't mean he will live forever.
[/QUOTE]
How is it possible for a man to live that long ? If you say, why not, if Allah wishes, He can do anything. No doubt about it, yes, Allah is the Almighty, and He has the capability to do anything. But the question is will Allah do this? Will Allah break the rule of nature? Will Allah break the same rule that He has set forth?
67:3 Who has created the seven heavens in harmony. You can not see in the creation of the Rahman any inconsistency. Then turn again the gaze. Do you see any crack?
67:4 And then turn again the search once more, the eyesight will return to you defeated, while it is fatigued.
There are several other verses where Allah says there is no change in the course of Allah, that there is uniformity in the law of nature.
17:77 … And you will not find any change in Our course.
30:30 … there is no altering in the creation of Allah
33:62 … and you will not find any alteration in the course of Allah.
35:43 … But you will never find any change in the course of Allah and you will never find any shifting in the course of Allah.
48:23 the law of Allah which has been in operation from before, and you will never find any change in the course of Allah.
Tell me, which law of Allah has been in operation since before? Is it just the law of earth moving around the sun and movement of the planets and nothing more? What would you say about the law of birth, senescence and death? Don’t you agree that even birth and death are laws of Allah? That flower bloom, wind blows, day and night happen, sunrise and sunset—everything is in accordance to the law of Allah. Then Allah testifies you will never find any change in the course of Allah. Had there been a change, don’t you think Allah would have specifically told us so?
If Jesus(pbuh) is alive in the Heaven, his age today is more than 2000 years!! How can he live that long defying rules and laws set forth by Allah? Are we not making words of Allah contradict when we say in case of Jesus(pbuh) Allah changed his law and made him live that long?
How can a person live that longer when Allah says:
16:70 And Allah creates you, then He causes you to die; and among you someone is caused to return to the worst of the age, resulting in his not knowing anything after knowledge. Allah is truly all Knowing, most Capable.
22:5 … And of you is one who is caused to die, and among you is one who is turned back to the worst part of life until he does not know anything after having known...
36:68 And whomsoever We lengthen life, We reverse him in constitution
These verses tell us that whoever lives too long, Allah returns them as crippled and not knowing anything after knowledge. This is more like a cycle of life. Birth --> Infancy --> Childhood --> Adulthood --> Old age.
At very old age, a person reverts to a state much like infancy, depending on assistance for almost every daily routine: eating, bath, walking, toilet etc. As if Allah reverts the person in constitution (36:68) and makes him another infant. Like an infant, at this time he does not remember things and has no knowledge of events around him.
In this context, if Jesus(pbuh) is allowed to live that long, by now he is so crippled and in the worst part of life that there is no use of him to come back and do anything for Islam. In fact he cannot do anything worthwhile at that age.
Thus you can see, when you deny the death of Jesus(pbuh) you are putting so many verses of the Quran to contradict each other.
^ Prophet 'Isa (as) was born, he will die and will be resurrected... no laws have been broken here...
So what's the maximum age you believe someone is allowed to live to before Allah's laws become defied and broken?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
^ Prophet 'Isa (as) was born, he will die and will be resurrected... no laws have been broken here...
[/QUOTE]
Very true, I agree... But you don't believe in this sequence... Let me remind you what your belief is:
- Prophet Isa (as) was born
- Was Raised to Allah bodily (Rule broken)
- Will descend from Sky (Rule broken)
- Will die
- Will be resurrected
^ Only YOUR personal rules appear to have been broken... So what's the maximum age you believe someone can live to before Allah's laws become defied and broken?
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
^ Only YOUR personal rules appear to have been broken... So what's the maximum age you believe someone can live to before Allah's laws become defied and broken?
[/QUOTE]
Only my personal rule? C'mon gupguppy, I've proven it from verses of Quran.
here is another proof:
[23:12] Who will inherit Paradise. They will abide therein for ever.
If Hudhrat Isa (as) is in paradise right now, why would Allah break another rule for him. Because according to the verse above, he will never take anyone out of paradise.
And for your information, question here is not, for how long a person can live before Allah's laws become defied and broken. Ofcourse, a person can live as long as Allah wills, but a 'Rule' of Allah is broken when a person 'bodily' ascends to heaven while he is living in this world.
As the following verses suggest, a person MUST DIE in this world before he can be raised up on the Day of Resurrection.
[23:13] Verily, We created man from an extract of clay;
[23:14] Then We placed him as a drop of sperm in a safe depository;
[23:15] Then We fashioned the sperm into a clot; then We fashioned the clot into a shapeless lump; then We fashioned bones out of this shapeless lump; Then We clothed the bones with flesh; Then We developed it into another creation. So blessed be Allah, the Best of creators.
*[23:16] Then after that you, surely, must die.
[23:17] Then on the Day of Resurrection you shall, surely, be raised up *.
Look at the sequence of events in above verses and tell me why Jesus(as) is an exception.