Tomb of Virgin Mary in Murree

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*Originally posted by Faisal: *
You guys are making a claim that practically no one else in the world believes. Essentially it means that all others are stupid and only you know the truth.

I mean, no problem. You can continue to believe what ever you want. Thats your prerogative and free speech and all that. But if you want others to be convinced, or even give it a serious thought, a scientific explanation needs to come from you, not from anyone else. :)
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The people of Srinagar and those of Muree who live near these Shrines also believe that its Jesus and Mary who are buried in the Shrines, and these people are Sunni. So apparently the Ahmadis arent the only ones who believe this.

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*Originally posted by Destino: *
SmoothG,

Your question is very valid. So much so that you must apply it to other prophets as well and see if the "corrective" revelations were sent to them on every occasion where a prophet made an "ijtihadi error".

Prophets are only humans and are born with the same human faculties as the rest. It is their nature which makes them different from the rest and the nature is bestowed upon them from Allah. Now it is Allah's Will whether He gives all the information on a matter or withholds some for the the guidence of the future generations. Ayatul Kursi teaches us the same principle. If all the truths were made menifest and obvious in revelation like a scientific piece of work, than where is the trial for those with wicked natures?
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Sir jee, let me know one example where a prophet said something on his own which was incorrect (which is rare but could happen) but he is not corrected for 11 months (let alone 11 years). Infact he was never told by God that what he has been spreading among people on a certain topic (Jesus's death and burial is not an ordinary matter but rather a very iconic one). I mean at the end he still relyed on the Earthy reports since God never bothered to clear him. I think any sane person can see the hidden falsehood in his ever changing position on Jesus burial.

The question is ridiculous to begin with… when one talks about an individual the norm is that one is expected to be referring to them as a whole in their entirety (unless there is some compelling evidence to suggest otherwise)… you wouldn’t say: ‘I saw Faisal yesterday’ but when asked to clarify what you meant come back with, ‘Well, what i meant was i saw one of his clipped fingernails on the ground.’

If Allah said 'Isa (as) then it means him as a whole… body and everything…

Qur’an 3:55 in Yusuf Ali, "Behold! Allah said: “O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself…,” or another translation as in Pickthal, “(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me…”

See above… the hadith about Prophet 'Isa’s (as) descent are of the mutawatir (mass-transmitted) category…

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*Originally posted by smooth_guy: *

Sir jee, let me know one example where a prophet said something on his own which was incorrect (which is rare but could happen) but he is not corrected for 11 months (let alone 11 years). Infact he was never told by God that what he has been spreading among people on a certain topic (Jesus's death and burial is not an ordinary matter but rather a very iconic one). I mean at the end he still relyed on the Earthy reports since God never bothered to clear him. I think any sane person can see the hidden falsehood in his ever changing position on Jesus burial.
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"

Any sane person would read the references and judge if the person who quoted them has used a iota of honestly while drawing conclusions.
The first two burial places (in palestine) were not hypothecised but were believed to be the graves of Jesus and Mary by the local populations. These were mentioned in support of the claim that JESUS HAS DIED. When it came to exact location of the burial place it was established to be Kashmir. This was a result of thorogh investigation and not conjectures. Investigation on matters is Sunnah of Rusoolullah (Saw). We will find many examples where facts were established by proofs rather than revelation. Any wrong conclusion has always the room to be corrected as this is a scholarly problem. One fact remains the same no matter where people think Jesus was buried. He passed away. Bulk of the proof points out towards Srinagar to be his resting place. But we also have to consider conflicting evidence inorder to make a fair comparison of what people believe and where does Proof lead us.

The Birth of Jesus
From Mary to the manger, how the Gospels mix faith and history to tell the Christmas story and make the case for Christ

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6653824/site/newsweek/

Goodness gracious me always claimed Jesus was Indian :smokin:

i dont believe all this. its like all the other stories where ppl have prophet muhammad's (pbuh) hairs, n footprints, n wutnot.

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*Originally posted by gupguppy: *

Qur'an 3:55 in Yusuf Ali, "Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself...," or another translation as in Pickthal, "(And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me..."

See above... the hadith about Prophet 'Isa's (as) descent are of the mutawatir (mass-transmitted) category...
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the problem is taking 'raising' as physical... all it means in the context of the verse is "raising the status" of Prophet Jesus..

btw this has been discussed many times on this forum.. .look it up..

^ That explanation 'might' make some sense if you insist on reading the word 'raise' in complete isolation... but the verse says 'rafi'uka ilaya'... so 'raising the status' doesn't really fit...

I wonder if Hadhrat Idrees :as: is up in heavens too?

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[19:57] And relate the story of Idris as mentioned in the Book. He was a truthful man and a Prophet.

[19:58] And We exalted him to a lofty station.

Unless we do translation like above.

So my friend, Quran doesn’t support you either.

^ and just where is the term 'rafi'uka ilaya' in that verse or are you just pretending to be clueless about Arabic...

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*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
^ and just where is the term 'rafi'uka ilaya' in that verse or are you just pretending to be clueless about Arabic...
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Are you for real? Haven't you read the second verse? Let me post it for you again...

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Wa Rafa'Naahoo Makana Alayya

Got it?

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by gupguppy: *
^ That explanation 'might' make some sense if you insist on reading the word 'raise' in complete isolation... but the verse says 'rafi'uka ilaya'... so 'raising the status' doesn't really fit...
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gupguppy bhai jaan where is Allah?? do u have GPS coordinates for Him?

The Qur'an uses certain words when they are necessary.. for "ascending upto Allah" the Qur'an uses يَعْرُجُ إِلَيْهِ "yaruju ilayhay" (see 70:4 and 32:5)

For ascending upto the heaven it's تَرْقَى فِي السَّمَاء (see 17:93)

Now see 35:10 for يَرْفَعُهُ .. .would u think anyone who does good deeds ultimately gets 'lifted up to Allah'??

Also consider:

[19:56] And mention Idris in the Book; surely he was a truthful man, a prophet,
19:57 And We raised him high in Heaven.

PakistaniAbroad: Jesus was only "raised towards Allah" who is everywhere.. but here we have clear indication of Idris being raised to the heavens! so now we have two Prophets 'up there'.

The best interpretation (and the most consistent with it's usage in the Qur'an) of وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ therefore is "exalted" or "raised in status" more than a physical ascension.

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*Originally posted by zakiahmed: *

Are you for real? Haven't you read the second verse? Let me post it for you again...

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Wa Rafa'Naahoo Makana Ilayya

Got it?
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Clueless about Arabic just as i thought... if you can't see the difference between ilayya (3:55) and 'aliyyan (19:57) - NOT Ilayya as you've just given it - then i think you better stop and go back to Arabic school... you'll find each word at opposite ends of the Arabic dictionary...

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*Originally posted by PakistaniAbroad: *

The Qur'an uses certain words when they are necessary.. for "ascending upto Allah" the Qur'an uses يَعْرُجُ إِلَيْهِ "yaruju ilayhay" (see 70:4 and 32:5)
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Good... likewise 'rafi'uka ilayya' is 'raise thee to Myself'

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For ascending upto the heaven it's تَرْقَى فِي السَّمَاء (see 17:93)
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and the point is?

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Now see 35:10 for يَرْفَعُهُ .. .would u think anyone who does good deeds ultimately gets 'lifted up to Allah'??
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Looking at rafa'a in isolation again... see my earlier reply given that you've missed the point...

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19:57 And We raised him high in Heaven.
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YUSUF ALI: And We raised him to a lofty station.
PICKTHAL: And We raised him to [a] high station.

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so now we have two Prophets 'up there'.
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Good... Prophet Muhammad (saw) saw many prophets up there...

Oh my god....gupguppy is a lost cause.

Gupguppy :- for your understanding..

Interpretation of the word "rafa" – to raise/to exalt:

In the same verse 3:54 use of two words "wafat" and "rafa" may have led you to a double jeopardy. On top of that you are under constant influence of Christian doctrine. As a result you simply believe that Jesus(pbuh) did not die and instead was raised alive in heaven. In doing so, you are actually believing the Christian faith and failing to see the true teaching of the Quran. Not only that, now you are making one verse of the Quran contradict another.

The meaning of the word is ‘to raise’, ‘to exalt’. In order to validate the Christian faith, first, you refuse to see ‘wafat’ as death, and then interpret ‘rafa’ as physical ascension. When these two incorrect interpretations are combined, you find that Jesus(pbuh) was raised to the heaven.

Let us examine the use of the word ‘rafa’ in the Quran. The word ‘rafa’ occurred many times in the Quran conveying a meaning of spiritual honor and exaltation. Please note carefully what Allah says in the verse. He is saying that Jesus(pbuh) will be raised towards Him and not towards Heaven. So the question of Jesus(pbuh) being alive in the Heaven can not arise, because he was not raised in the Heaven. In the literal context even if we think that he was raised bodily near Allah, question comes, where is Allah? Is He ensconced somewhere in the sky, in Heaven or in a throne like a king? Didn’t Allah say that He is omnipresent – in other words, He is present everywhere? Would you say that Allah is confined in a physical body towards which He raised Jesus(pbuh)? Please answer, how can Jesus(pbuh) be raised to sky or Heaven when Allah said he will be raised towards Him. And that Allah is present everywhere (2:115); Allah is nearer to man than his heart (8:24); Allah is nearer to man than his jugular vein (50:16).

If that be true, then Jesus(pbuh) could not have been raised physically and bodily in to the sky. If really he was needed to be raised bodily towards Allah, then he could very well stay in Jerusalem, yet be near Allah - because Allah is present everywhere and in Jerusalem too.

This drives home the true meaning of the word ‘rafa’ – exalt in honor and/or exalt in spiritual dignity. This verse tells us that while the Jews were planning to kill him, (he will not be killed, rather) Allah will cause him to die a natural death and sanctify him against the charges of the enemies. Once again, please notice the sentence: Ya Isa, inni mutawaffika WA rafi’uka ilaiya… that is ‘rafa’ will take place only after the ‘wafat’. ‘Rafa’ after death can not mean physical ascension, but only exaltation in rank. This is more implied when the words ‘I shall clear you of those who reject Faith’ are present with it. This shows that while Jews plotted heinous crime against him, and brought him utter disgrace and condemned him as a cheat and planned to put him to a shameful death on the cross etc. Allah will instead save him and exalt him in honor and dignity.

Since the use of the word 'rafa' raised Jesus(pbuh) alive, the use of the same word in case of other prophets must do the same thing! Ask yourself, if you know of any other prophet who was raised alive in the Heaven? None? What about Prophet Idris(pbuh)? Regarding Idris(pbuh) Allah says in Surah Maryam 19:57 as: And We raised him to an elevated state. (WA rafa’naa hu…). The use of ‘rafa’ here should prompt you to declare that Allah raised Idris(pbuh) in alive condition in the Heaven or at least to a place hanging high above. If we apply the same logic, in case of Jesus(pbuh), use of the word 'rafa' kept him alive for 2000 years; therefore the same use of the word 'rafa' in case of Idris(pbuh) must keep him alive for 2000 years or so. The problem now is about these two alive people in the Heaven – Jesus(pbuh) and Idris(pbuh). The Muslims already made stories and speculations that Jesus(pbuh) will descend from the Heaven in the later days, but what about Idris(pbuh)? Has Idris(pbuh) come down already or when is he going to descend or is he going to stay there perpetually?

The word ‘rafa’ was used in different places in the Quran to mean spiritual honor and exaltation. Let us see some of the examples:

Great Prophets like Muhammad(pbuh) are exalted.
43:32 …And We have raised some of them above others in rank. (…WA rafa’ na…)
94:4 And We have exalted for you your mention (…WA rafa’ NA…)

Prophet Ibrahim(pbuh) has been exalted by Allah.
6:84 ….We exalt in degrees whom We please (…narfa’u darazaa…)

Prophet Idris(pbuh) has been exalted by Allah.
19:57 And We raised him to an elevated state. (WA rafa’naa hu…)

Righteous servants of Allah are raised in degrees.
6:166 …and He raises some of you above the others in degrees…. (…WA rafa’ aa
ba’dakum…)
7:176 And had We wished We would invariably exalted him; …. (…rafa’naa hu….)
56:3 It will abase it will exalt (…rafi’aah…)

All good deeds are raised towards Allah.
35:10 …all pure speech and all good deed, --He exalts it…. (…yarfa’uhu. …)

House of pious Muslims are raised high by Allah.
24:36 in (certain) houses which Allah has permitted to be raised up… (…an turfa’a WA yuzkara…)

From this discussion we see that no where the use of ‘rafa’ meant physical ascension. However, in 3:54 verse, you would interpret physical ascension just to validate the Christian faith. Whereas, if we honestly translate the word 'wafat' as death, then 'rafa' after death cannot mean physical ascension, rather exaltation in honor.

The tendency of Muslims is to destroy the teaching of the Quran only to validate the Christian dogma. Believe it or not, many Muslims approach the Quran like hypocrites – believe part of it and reject part of it. Muslims don’t want to believe in the total Quran. When this is pointed out to you, your defensive answers are:

all Muslims believe Jesus(pbuh) was raised alive, so I also believe it (I don’t care what the Quran says);
if I believe Jesus(pbuh) was not raised alive, then I become Qadiani, and I don't want to be a Qadiani;
my forefathers believed Jesus(pbuh) was raised alive, were they wrong? I would rather follow my forefathers (instead of following the teaching of Quran).
I faced similar dilemma when I was approaching the truth. Eventually I was able to reconcile the verses of the Quran and not make one verse contradict another. I was able to come out of the influence of Christian faith in Islam and find out the true meanings.

With this let us revisit two verses from Surah Ale Imran, 3:53-54.

3:53 And they made plots and Allah made His plans. And Allah is the most Excellent of the plan-makers.

3:54 Behold! Allah said: ‘O Isa! I shall cause you to die and I shall exalt you towards me and I shall clear you of those who reject Faith, and I am going to make those who follow you above those who reject Faith - until the day of Awakening. Then towards me is your return so that I shall decide among you as to that in which you used to differ.

In case of each prophets, Allah made plans against plots made by oppressors. This is the practice of Allah to protect His messengers at the time of aggression of enemies. Allah protected Musa, Ibrahim, Yusuf, Lut, Muhammad (pbu them) to name a few. In case of Jesus(pbuh) snatching him away from the enemies and lifting him alive in the Heaven can not be called a subtle and better plan of Allah when neither was it in the power of Jews nor in the power of anybody to counter it. In fact a better and subtle plan can be designed against another plan when it is contrived in a parallel manner.

Interesting copy-and-paste Diva4U... but have you understood anything of what you've blindly plagiarised?

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*Originally posted by Diva4U: *

Didn’t Allah say that He is omnipresent – in other words, He is present everywhere?
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Present everywhere? What exactly does that mean? Physically present? What?

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And that Allah is present everywhere (2:115)
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Present inside idols also?

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Allah is nearer to man than his heart (8:24)
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Indwells inside humans?

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Allah is nearer to man than his jugular vein (50:16)
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By His Knowledge as the verse says.

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Once again, please notice the sentence: Ya Isa, inni mutawaffika WA rafi’uka ilaiya… that is ‘rafa’ will take place only after the ‘wafat’.
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You assume the conjunction 'wa' always lays down a sequential order of events but it's not necessarily so... but that's another argument...

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However, in 3:54 verse, you would interpret physical ascension just to validate the Christian faith.
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It's 3:55 i'm looking at... it says 'rafi'uka ilayya' which according to your interpretation would cause the verse to mean, 'I will raise your spiritual dignity to Myself'... huh!?

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Whereas, if we honestly translate the word 'wafat' as death
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The primary meaning of 'wafat' is not death, it's 'to take, reclaim, gather, receive' (hence Yusuf Ali gives this verse as 'take thee' and Pickthal has it as 'gathering thee').... so if you wanted to be "honest" you should have mentioned this...

It's pointless arguing over rafa etc etc.

What you should do is go back to the Qur'aan. The primary source:

Surah 3. The Family Of 'Imran, The House Of 'Imran

  1. She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: Allah createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

  2. "And Allah will teach him the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel,

Allah swt has made it abundantly clear that he will teach Jesus, the Qur'aan which is also refered to as the Book and Wisdom, the Tawrah and the Gospel. The Arabic words used here are 'alkitaba waal hikmata waalttawrata waalinjeela'.

The Tawrah and Injeel we all understand. It's simple. The Qur'aan on the other hand is also refered to as al Kitaab. Each time the word al Kitaab is mentioned in the Qur'aan it always refers to the Qur'aan, bar one ayat when it refers to the Scriptures given to Abraham as the al Kitaab. This consensus has been agreed by all scholars.

See:

Surah 2:231
Surah 3:381
Surah 4:113

Additionally:

Surah 5. The Table, The Table Spread

  1. Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold!....

Again the words 'alkitaba waalhikmata waalttawrata waalinjeela' are used.

It is imperative that Jesus learns the Qur'aan as a condition laid out in the Qur'aan itself. This being the case, we all know that the Qur'aan was not revealed at the time of Jesus's life on earth. He was given the Injeel.

For Jesus to learn the al Kitaab, he must return.

Peace.

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*Originally posted by sholay: *

Each time the word al Kitaab is mentioned in the Qur'aan it always refers to the Qur'aan, bar one ayat when it refers to the Scriptures given to Abraham as the al Kitaab.
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What about Surah 19:12 ?

"O Yahya! take hold of the Book (al-kitab) with strength..."